nzone said:
The horse is a young woman...the dude with the stick is woke Jesse.
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Transgender Debate
- Thread starter Sport
- Start date
The horse is a young woman...the dude with the stick is woke Jesse.
SoldierGriz said:
Remind me who hates young women?
I know its not me...they are free to compete.
There are at least two groups of victims in this equation...trans athletes and football players, and we know who hates them without ambiguity.
I mean, seriously, man. Just repeating that those who might oppose bills like this are anti-woman doesn’t make it so. It’s as silly as saying those who support the bill hate home playoff games.
If this were on a ballot where I live, I honestly can’t say for sure how I’d vote. But I don’t hate anyone. I guess I’d have to look at how much of an issue it’s been in my state (CA). A good source for such info is linked in the source that you linked. CA has allowed gender identity participation for nearly a decade, and it has been a non-issue. That’s, what? Over 100 years worth of Montana athletes. I’d look at your points too, and if it has actually directly affected me or my family, or if I just feel scared that it might.
Anyway, long ramble. No disrespect. I just hate that nuance isn’t allowed in anything anymore. So I guess I do hate something.
Edit: here’s the link from the link that you linked if you’re interested: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/04/09/transgender-girls-sports-reality-not-controversial-column/7088759002/
CDAGRIZ said:SoldierGriz said:
Remind me who hates young women?
I know its not me...they are free to compete.
There are at least two groups of victims in this equation...trans athletes and football players, and we know who hates them without ambiguity.
I mean, seriously, man. Just repeating that those who might oppose bills like this are anti-woman doesn’t make it so. It’s as silly as saying those who support the bill hate home playoff games.
If this were on a ballot where I live, I honestly can’t say for sure how I’d vote. But I don’t hate anyone. I guess I’d have to look at how much of an issue it’s been in my state (CA). A good source for such info is linked in the source that you linked. CA has allowed gender identity participation for nearly a decade, and it has been a non-issue. That’s, what? Over 100 years worth of Montana athletes. I’d look at your points too, and if it has actually directly affected me or my family, or if I just feel scared that it might.
Anyway, long ramble. No disrespect. I just hate that there can be no nuance in anything anymore.
I don't disagree with you...unfortunately, this specific issue seems to prevent making anyone / everyone happy. It truly pits 2 groups of people worth protecting against each other.
I just default to young women and hope they can achieve all they've worked so hard for. Just a simple matter of fairness for me.
SoldierGriz said:CDAGRIZ said:Remind me who hates young women?
I know its not me...they are free to compete.
There are at least two groups of victims in this equation...trans athletes and football players, and we know who hates them without ambiguity.
I mean, seriously, man. Just repeating that those who might oppose bills like this are anti-woman doesn’t make it so. It’s as silly as saying those who support the bill hate home playoff games.
If this were on a ballot where I live, I honestly can’t say for sure how I’d vote. But I don’t hate anyone. I guess I’d have to look at how much of an issue it’s been in my state (CA). A good source for such info is linked in the source that you linked. CA has allowed gender identity participation for nearly a decade, and it has been a non-issue. That’s, what? Over 100 years worth of Montana athletes. I’d look at your points too, and if it has actually directly affected me or my family, or if I just feel scared that it might.
Anyway, long ramble. No disrespect. I just hate that there can be no nuance in anything anymore.
I don't disagree with you...unfortunately, this specific issue seems to prevent making anyone / everyone happy. It truly pits 2 groups of people worth protecting against each other.
I just default to young women and hope they can achieve all they've worked so hard for. Just a simple matter of fairness for me.
I get it. All good man. :thumb:
Idk if you saw, but I edited to include that article referenced in your link. I think it gives a really interesting perspective on “fairness” and competitive equity in sports in general, and how it relates to this issue. And I have to thank you for posting your link because I would have never found either one.
IdaGriz01
Well-known member
And there you have it. Which is why the issue won't go away. Personally, I think the only "fair" way to resolve the issue may be to have another competitive structure just for transgender athletes.SoldierGriz said:
There are, of course, sports where transgenders have competed with biological girls/women apparently with no real problems. But I kinda wonder how those who see "inclusion" as the only proper answer will feel when/if* transgenders own all or most of the records for individual "female" events.
* The science -- from broad, systematic studies -- is not there yet. But what there is suggests that biologically male transgenders, in general, do indeed have a physiological advantage over biological females. That would presumably be mitigated in team sports (unless most or all of a team were transgender). Problem is, how long do we wait for definitive scientific answers?
"by the NCAA estimates, less than 1 percent of the NCAA’s student-athlete population is transgender, which isn’t surprising, as only about 1 percent of the general United States population is transgender."
https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a35852603/transgender-women-in-sports/
https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a35852603/transgender-women-in-sports/
garizzalies
Well-known member
This seems like just as good a thread as any to settle a debate. I got into an argument the other night and, nat, thought egriz would be the best place to seek the answer.
Without further ado, here’s the question: what’s the best duet of all time?
I offer Meatloaf:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C11MzbEcHlw
A drunk at the other end of the bar volunteered Jackson by Cash/Carter, and I also heard Hit the Road, Jack. Both fine entries. One guy argued for several duets from the 80s and upon further reflection, I don’t think there was a good duet from the 80s. Prove me wrong
Without further ado, here’s the question: what’s the best duet of all time?
I offer Meatloaf:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C11MzbEcHlw
A drunk at the other end of the bar volunteered Jackson by Cash/Carter, and I also heard Hit the Road, Jack. Both fine entries. One guy argued for several duets from the 80s and upon further reflection, I don’t think there was a good duet from the 80s. Prove me wrong
PlayerRep said:
It just creates cognitive dissonance for me at times....why do we go to such lengths to protect so few and do so at the expense of another very small group who might be negatively impacted?
Tough topic indeed.
https://twitter.com/Heminator/status/1396469269764976643
Story from post above
I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it an unfair fight.
When I was forced to race male bodies on the track, colleges didn’t see the fastest female in Connecticut. They saw a second- or third-place runner.
It’s February 2020. I’m crouched at the starting line of the high school girls’ 55-meter indoor race. This should be one of the best days of my life. I’m running in the state championship, and I’m ranked the fastest high school female in the 55-meter dash in the state. I should be feeling confident. I should know that I have a strong shot at winning.
Instead, all I can think about is how all my training, everything I’ve done to maximize my performance, might not be enough, simply because there’s a runner on the line with an enormous physical advantage: a male body.
I won that race, and I'm grateful. But time after time, I have lost. I’ve lost four women’s state championship titles, two all-New England awards, and numerous other spots on the podium to male runners. I was bumped to third place in the 55-meter dash in 2019, behind two male runners. With every loss, it gets harder and harder to try again.
That’s a devastating experience. It tells me that I’m not good enough; that my body isn’t good enough; and that no matter how hard I work, I am unlikely to succeed, because I’m a woman.
Don't eliminate women's sports
That experience is why three of my fellow female athletes and I filed a lawsuit last year with Alliance Defending Freedom against the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference (CIAC): because girls and women shouldn’t be stripped of their right to fair competition.
The CIAC allows biological males to compete in girls’ and women’s sports. As a result, two males began racing in girls’ track in 2017. In the 2017, 2018, and 2019 seasons alone, these males took 15 women’s state track championship titles (titles held in 2016 by nine different girls) and more than 85 opportunities to participate in higher level competitions that belonged to female track athletes.
That’s because males have massive physical advantages. Their bodies are simply bigger and stronger on average than female bodies. It’s obvious to every single girl on the track.
But Connecticut officials are determined to ignore the obvious. And unfortunately, a federal district court recently dismissed our case. The court’s decision to do so tells women and girls that their feelings and opportunities don’t matter, and that they can’t expect anyone to stand up for their dignity and their rights.
Don't ignore the obvious:Transgender athletes deserve compassion, but not the right to transform women's sports
That’s wrong. And it chips away at women’s confidence and our belief in our own abilities.
It’s happened to me over and over. Every time I walk up to the starting line, I try to tell myself that I can overcome the unfair odds — I can win, even though the race is stacked against me.
But besides the psychological toll of experiencing unfair losses over and over, the CIAC’s policy has more tangible harms for women. It robs girls of the chance to race in front of college scouts who show up for elite metes, and to compete for the scholarships and opportunities that come with college recruitment. I’ll never know how my own college recruitment was impacted by losing those four state championship titles to a male. When colleges looked at my record, they didn’t see the fastest girl in Connecticut. They saw a second- or third-place runner.
I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it an unfair fight.
When I was forced to race male bodies on the track, colleges didn’t see the fastest female in Connecticut. They saw a second- or third-place runner.
It’s February 2020. I’m crouched at the starting line of the high school girls’ 55-meter indoor race. This should be one of the best days of my life. I’m running in the state championship, and I’m ranked the fastest high school female in the 55-meter dash in the state. I should be feeling confident. I should know that I have a strong shot at winning.
Instead, all I can think about is how all my training, everything I’ve done to maximize my performance, might not be enough, simply because there’s a runner on the line with an enormous physical advantage: a male body.
I won that race, and I'm grateful. But time after time, I have lost. I’ve lost four women’s state championship titles, two all-New England awards, and numerous other spots on the podium to male runners. I was bumped to third place in the 55-meter dash in 2019, behind two male runners. With every loss, it gets harder and harder to try again.
That’s a devastating experience. It tells me that I’m not good enough; that my body isn’t good enough; and that no matter how hard I work, I am unlikely to succeed, because I’m a woman.
Don't eliminate women's sports
That experience is why three of my fellow female athletes and I filed a lawsuit last year with Alliance Defending Freedom against the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference (CIAC): because girls and women shouldn’t be stripped of their right to fair competition.
The CIAC allows biological males to compete in girls’ and women’s sports. As a result, two males began racing in girls’ track in 2017. In the 2017, 2018, and 2019 seasons alone, these males took 15 women’s state track championship titles (titles held in 2016 by nine different girls) and more than 85 opportunities to participate in higher level competitions that belonged to female track athletes.
That’s because males have massive physical advantages. Their bodies are simply bigger and stronger on average than female bodies. It’s obvious to every single girl on the track.
But Connecticut officials are determined to ignore the obvious. And unfortunately, a federal district court recently dismissed our case. The court’s decision to do so tells women and girls that their feelings and opportunities don’t matter, and that they can’t expect anyone to stand up for their dignity and their rights.
Don't ignore the obvious:Transgender athletes deserve compassion, but not the right to transform women's sports
That’s wrong. And it chips away at women’s confidence and our belief in our own abilities.
It’s happened to me over and over. Every time I walk up to the starting line, I try to tell myself that I can overcome the unfair odds — I can win, even though the race is stacked against me.
But besides the psychological toll of experiencing unfair losses over and over, the CIAC’s policy has more tangible harms for women. It robs girls of the chance to race in front of college scouts who show up for elite metes, and to compete for the scholarships and opportunities that come with college recruitment. I’ll never know how my own college recruitment was impacted by losing those four state championship titles to a male. When colleges looked at my record, they didn’t see the fastest girl in Connecticut. They saw a second- or third-place runner.
Paytonlives said:
Buried in the article is that she won the race. Doesn’t seem like she did a whole lot of losing. Quite a resume and currently doing really well as a frosh at W&M.
https://tribeathletics.com/sports/womens-track-and-field/roster/chelsea-mitchell/11498
Prep:
Runner-up in the Emerging Elite Long Jump at the 2019 New Balance Outdoor Nationals ... New England Champion in the 100m in 2019 as well ... Named the Connecticut State Track Athlete of the Year following those performances ... As a senior in the winter of 2020, ranked No. 3 in the nation in the long jump ... Named a prep All-American by the NSAF ... Won 11 Connecticut State Championships at Canton ... Three of her state titles were in the open (all-divisions) category in addition to eight in her division ... Won the state open title in the 55m dash as senior in 2020 ... Also won the state open championship outdoors in the 100m in 2019, and indoors in the long jump in 2019 ... Won the divisional 100m in 2018 ... Added the 200m and 4x100m outdoor championships that year as well ... In 2019, won the long jump in her division both indoors and outdoors ... Swept the divisional titles in the 55m, 300m, and the long jump in 2020.
alabamagrizzly
Well-known member
Jesse said:
Well considering that the NCAA completely ignored their own warning while picking host sites for the softball tournament, I’m not too worried about Montana’s chances to host playoff games. Several states that have established anti-transgender laws, including ones that go beyond sports, were awarded the opportunity to host regional tournaments. The head of the baseball selection committee stated in a recent story on the subject that his committee was not given any direction by the NCAA to avoid certain states for their laws. Currently over 30 states have bills in the works for Anti-transgender laws or have already passed those laws(up to eight states now I believe). I encourage everyone to not buy into the fear mongering that is going on and sit back and relax. The NCAA will ALWAYS follow the money and only one or two other schools in the FCS can rival what Montana can make the NCAA by hosting playoff games. In the immortal words of Bob Marley, “Everything’s gonna be alright.”
AZGrizFan said:
And lost to biological females, and beat the same trans females she lost to in 2019, persevering to a DI scholarship where she is and I’m sure will continue to do very well. I didn’t find any info on where Yearwood and Miller (the two trans females) are running in college...
Edit: In between two of Koepka’s awful shots, I found that one of the other plaintiffs/appellants planned to run for a DI in South Carolina. I’m sure both would be AAs at Texas and USC by now had they not lost a few races in HS to those trans trans women who don’t appear to even run track anymore.
I find it amusing that all these people who don't care about athletics and UM/MSU athletics, and hate football, are running around being all worried about losing home playoff games.
I assume the State and the Gov. have a strategy for this. As with the Softball, I wonder if the NCAA would try to go against this many states for this issue. That could irritate a lot of people in Congress, who would vote on any attempt to repeal the ncaa antitrust favorable treatment. Also, I would think a MT judge would be likely to find a way to enjoin the NCAA on this issue, at least on a temporary basis. What judge wants to be known as allowing the (hated) ncaa to take playoff games away from MT or any state.
I assume the State and the Gov. have a strategy for this. As with the Softball, I wonder if the NCAA would try to go against this many states for this issue. That could irritate a lot of people in Congress, who would vote on any attempt to repeal the ncaa antitrust favorable treatment. Also, I would think a MT judge would be likely to find a way to enjoin the NCAA on this issue, at least on a temporary basis. What judge wants to be known as allowing the (hated) ncaa to take playoff games away from MT or any state.
IdaGriz01 said:
I believe the conundrum with your solution is statistically there just aren’t the numbers for a third class of athletic competition at any level. HB112 basically tells them to fuck off no soup for you. While the Olympics, NCAA, high school associations and the LPGA and other pro sports are trying to come up with solutions that are still evolving to make a more level playing field. So yeah, it’s either the woke solution or HB 112? Me, I’m for home playoff games and hate all women. Woke that mother fuckers ers
PlayerRep said:
greenie, you usually mock, or at least call unnecessary, actions that are about a tiny percent of the population, but potentially affect much larger segments of society. this silly action, and concomitant waste of taxpayer dollars and legislative time, seems to fall in that category. your say you are friends with gianforte, who agrees with the action, and but don't take the same stance. not looking for a reply, just making an observation.
argh! said:
Your first sentence is not accurate. Don't know what you are talking about. Yes, I know G very well. I represented his company from 1997 (inception) to sale to Oracle for $1.8 billion in 2012. I supported him in each of his campaigns. I have taken him to my reservation twice, including to our ranch. He's seen the two-room shack I grew up in during my early years. He is very smart, strategic and hard-working. He is and will be great on economic, business, jobs, deregulation, and govt efficiency, but is way more socially conservative than I am.
PlayerRep said:
So the AD’s for both schools who raised the alarm about losing home playoffs games amuse you and just made this all up because they hate football? Lol. What is the governors strategy on this one other then to own the libs? You might be a lawyer but the NCAA doesn’t have an anti-trust exemption that Congress can repeal. Better check your cites. NCAA v. Br’d of Regents Univ. OK and O’bannon v. NCAA held that NCAA was subject to anti trust laws, and they have been whining about it ever since. They want to be exempted but they aren’t. (Please bet me. Lol).
