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Some Ask a Taboo Question: Is America Overreacting to Coronavirus?

Cuervohola said:
BozAngelesGriz said:
mcg said:
Say what you want about the Obama recovery, we know for sure that the Trump depression has progressed at unprecedented speed.

the rate of spread of this virus in America has also been unprecedented. so has the shortage of medical supplies. with a 3 month notice i would have hoped for more.

Nobody in NYC had any notice, with the Governor and Mayor and assistants telling people to go play in public and go to parades at the start of March.

OOPS.

March 16: NY Times. Oops.

"For most of last week, as Mayor Bill de Blasio continued to urge New Yorkers to mostly go about their daily lives — sending their children to school, frequenting the city’s businesses — some of his top aides were furiously trying to change the mayor’s approach to the coronavirus outbreak.

There had been arguments and shouting matches between the mayor and some of his advisers; some top health officials had even threatened to resign if he refused to accept the need to close schools and businesses, according to several people familiar with the internal discussions.

Teachers were threatening not to show up to school on Monday. A growing number of public health experts and politicians were calling for much of the city to be shut down to curb the spread of the virus."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/16/nyregion/coronavirus-bill-de-blasio.html
 
Cuervohola said:
TCCGRIZ said:
I have already had a couple of my employees ask to be laid off, They are pretty much looking at being able to get the max weekly unemployment benefit of $550 per week plus the $600 with the new aid bill
That's $1150.00 per week .
I told them if there is work , they work . Trying to scam the system already .

In your situation, I would suddenly have 2 positions open.

No , that's what they want. They get the shitty job for a few weeks
 
CDAGRIZ said:
Interesting Bill Gates story: My wife once had to do some schooling at the children's hospital in Seattle and stayed at what was basically a boarding house owned by a retired UW physics professor in the Laurelhurst neighborhood. Our Seattle area brethren probably know the neighborhood, if not the actual house. The next door neighbors were Bill Gates II (Bill Gates' dad) and his wife. Anyway, this retired prof told us a story about how he went to a party next door at Bill II's house back in the early 1990s. I don't remember what he said the occasion was, but the food was catered. As the party was winding down, the caterers were loading stuff back in their van, and Bill II told Bill III (worth billions by that point), "William, don't just watch them, help them clean up." And he apparently said, "Yes, sir" and helped the caterers load the van until they were done. IDK, I always thought it was a pretty cool story.

I know a guy that runs a multi billion dollar company . Cuts his own firewood and drives a minivan that has over 200k miles on it .
One of the most down to earth guys I know .
 
PlayerRep said:
Cuervohola said:
BozAngelesGriz said:
mcg said:
Say what you want about the Obama recovery, we know for sure that the Trump depression has progressed at unprecedented speed.

the rate of spread of this virus in America has also been unprecedented. so has the shortage of medical supplies. with a 3 month notice i would have hoped for more.

Nobody in NYC had any notice, with the Governor and Mayor and assistants telling people to go play in public and go to parades at the start of March.

OOPS.

March 16: NY Times. Oops.

"For most of last week, as Mayor Bill de Blasio continued to urge New Yorkers to mostly go about their daily lives — sending their children to school, frequenting the city’s businesses — some of his top aides were furiously trying to change the mayor’s approach to the coronavirus outbreak.

There had been arguments and shouting matches between the mayor and some of his advisers; some top health officials had even threatened to resign if he refused to accept the need to close schools and businesses, according to several people familiar with the internal discussions.

Teachers were threatening not to show up to school on Monday. A growing number of public health experts and politicians were calling for much of the city to be shut down to curb the spread of the virus."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/16/nyregion/coronavirus-bill-de-blasio.html

Pretty bad when even the very Liberal NYT hates the Mayor. The only way he's out before the election in 2021 is if Cuomo takes action, so that won't happen.
 
TCCGRIZ said:
Cuervohola said:
TCCGRIZ said:
I have already had a couple of my employees ask to be laid off, They are pretty much looking at being able to get the max weekly unemployment benefit of $550 per week plus the $600 with the new aid bill
That's $1150.00 per week .
I told them if there is work , they work . Trying to scam the system already .

In your situation, I would suddenly have 2 positions open.

No , that's what they want. They get the shitty job for a few weeks

Ok. I would hire 2 new people and put them in charge of those 2.
 
Cuervohola said:
TCCGRIZ said:
Cuervohola said:
TCCGRIZ said:
I have already had a couple of my employees ask to be laid off, They are pretty much looking at being able to get the max weekly unemployment benefit of $550 per week plus the $600 with the new aid bill
That's $1150.00 per week .
I told them if there is work , they work . Trying to scam the system already .

In your situation, I would suddenly have 2 positions open.

No , that's what they want. They get the shitty job for a few weeks

Ok. I would hire 2 new people and put them in charge of those 2.

I'm in the same boat. Try finding two to replace the two that don't want to work when the potential employees also have a pretty big incentive not to work right now. You would think with so many people unemployed right now my phone would be ringing off the hook but only two applicants in the last two weeks from our Indeed add.
 
Cuervohola said:
TCCGRIZ said:
Cuervohola said:
TCCGRIZ said:
I have already had a couple of my employees ask to be laid off, They are pretty much looking at being able to get the max weekly unemployment benefit of $550 per week plus the $600 with the new aid bill
That's $1150.00 per week .
I told them if there is work , they work . Trying to scam the system already .

In your situation, I would suddenly have 2 positions open.

No , that's what they want. They get the shitty job for a few weeks

Ok. I would hire 2 new people and put them in charge of those 2.

That's a damn good idea
 
signedbewildered said:
Cuervohola said:
TCCGRIZ said:
Cuervohola said:
In your situation, I would suddenly have 2 positions open.

No , that's what they want. They get the shitty job for a few weeks

Ok. I would hire 2 new people and put them in charge of those 2.

I'm in the same boat. Try finding two to replace the two that don't want to work when the potential employees also have a pretty big incentive not to work right now. You would think with so many people unemployed right now my phone would be ringing off the hook but only two applicants in the last two weeks from our Indeed add.

I hired a guy a month ago.
His first day is tomorrow, needless to say he will be put into the frying pan.
 
A little perspective:
This month about +/- 120,000 Americans will die of heart disease. Looking around society it doesn’t appear that people feel any urgency to mitigate this by losing weight, exercising or eating a heart-healthy diet. Nope, no panic whatsoever about it.
 
Cuervohola said:
BozAngelesGriz said:
mcg said:
Say what you want about the Obama recovery, we know for sure that the Trump depression has progressed at unprecedented speed.

the rate of spread of this virus in America has also been unprecedented. so has the shortage of medical supplies. with a 3 month notice i would have hoped for more.

Nobody in NYC had any notice, with the Governor and Mayor and assistants telling people to go play in public and go to parades at the start of March.

OOPS.

Big ‘oops.’ Everyone had notice, they had only to look at Spain or Italy as an example of where this was going. Despite the harsh rhetoric of NY officials on the news, they had the ability to act to stem the spread weeks earlier.
 
PlayerRep said:
BozAngelesGriz said:
mcg said:
Say what you want about the Obama recovery, we know for sure that the Trump depression has progressed at unprecedented speed.

the rate of spread of this virus in America has also been unprecedented. so has the shortage of medical supplies. with a 3 month notice i would have hoped for more.

Not accurate.

Solutions always seem more clear in hindsight, I know. But as the most technologically and medically advanced nation on Earth, the writing was on the wall and we did not prepare. My significant other is an ICU nurse here in town, the lack of PPE and appropriate medical equipment is uncanny. I also work in emergency services, and (so far) most of our national approach to this situation has been reactive rather than proactive.
 
BozAngelesGriz said:
PlayerRep said:
BozAngelesGriz said:
mcg said:
Say what you want about the Obama recovery, we know for sure that the Trump depression has progressed at unprecedented speed.

the rate of spread of this virus in America has also been unprecedented. so has the shortage of medical supplies. with a 3 month notice i would have hoped for more.

Not accurate.

Solutions always seem more clear in hindsight, I know. But as the most technologically and medically advanced nation on Earth, the writing was on the wall and we did not prepare. My significant other is an ICU nurse here in town, the lack of PPE and appropriate medical equipment is uncanny. I also work in emergency services, and (so far) most of our national approach to this situation has been reactive rather than proactive.

Perhaps more focus on future issues like that could or would occur, if the country didn't spend so much time on things like impeachment, Russian interference (less focus on Trump, but more focus on protecting elections in general), criticizing leaders (this includes the birther stuff against Obama). So much times, energy and money is wasted stuff like that. Both Repubs and Dems do it.
 
"British Pathologist: Why COVID-19’s Death Rate May Be Lower Than We Feared"

"Lee writes that statistically Britain experiences about 51,000 deaths a month. “At the time of writing, 422 deaths are linked to COVID-19 — so 0.8 percent of that expected total,” he notes. “On a global basis, we’d expect 14 million to die over the first three months of the year. The world’s 18,944 coronavirus deaths represent 0.14 percent of that total."

While Lee makes a point of stressing that the number of deaths from the virus “might shoot up,” as of right now they are “lower than other infectious diseases that we live with (such as flu)” and at the current level would not, “in and of themselves, cause drastic global reactions."

“At the time of writing, the UK’s 422 deaths and 8,077 known cases give an apparent death rate of 5 percent,” Lee writes, an apparent death rate that is rightfully causing serious alarm.

“At the time of writing, the UK’s 422 deaths and 8,077 known cases give an apparent death rate of 5 percent,” Lee writes, an apparent death rate that is rightfully causing serious alarm."

https://www.dailywire.com/news/british-pathologist-heres-why-covid-19s-death-rate-may-be-lower-than-we-feared
 
"Medical" aspects of the virus. This is by far the best article I've read on the subject. Assume it's behind the Journal pay way, but will try to clip some paras. It's worth reading the whole thing if you are interested and can figure that out.

"The novel coronavirus that causes Covid-19 begins like most other respiratory viruses.

The virus most commonly enters the nose through minuscule droplets from someone’s mucus or saliva, says Steve Lawrence, an infectious disease physician at Washington University and Barnes-Jewish Hospital in St. Louis. This is the primary way of spreading the virus, which is why public health experts and governments are focusing on social distancing as a prevention strategy. It can also enter through the eyes or mouth.

Once the virus’s particles enter the body, they begin to attach to a particular receptor on the surface of the body’s cells, usually starting with cells in the mucous membranes in the nose and throat.

“You can find very high levels of virus in the nasal passages even before people have developed cough and fevers, suggesting that it is initially an upper respiratory infection,”

Though most people likely start with an upper respiratory infection, it’s also possible that respiratory droplets are inhaled more deeply and go directly into the lungs, says Brian Garibaldi, an associate professor of pulmonary and critical care at Johns Hopkins University. “It has a special protein that binds more tightly to cells in the lower respiratory tract,”

When your immune system recognizes there’s a new virus in your body it starts using signaling molecules called cytokines to start calling in reinforcements to the site of infection. “Many of those cytokines end up causing a fever,”

Once the virus has attacked enough cells in the upper respiratory system, most people will start to feel symptoms. This happens on average five days after being exposed to the virus but it can be sooner or as many as two weeks later, studies show.

These early symptoms usually include a dry cough and fever, and sometimes a sore throat, as well as aches and fatigue. Loss of taste and smell have also been reported as early signs of infection.

For the majority of people—roughly 80% according to reports from China—the symptoms end there and dissipate in a few days or weeks.

But for some people, predominantly older people and those with other medical conditions, the virus keeps traveling down and invading cells in the lungs.

When the cells start moving down the respiratory system into the lungs it becomes a lower respiratory illness, which is considered more serious. That could happen two to seven days after symptoms start,

Once the virus starts infecting the cells that line the air sacs in the lungs, viral pneumonia develops, which is inflammation of the lungs. Shortness of breath is an indication that the virus is damaging the lungs.

“Those people who develop pneumonia or get seriously ill, it’s because they’ve had infection of the lung itself, not just the upper airways,” says Dr. Kuritzkes.

And the lungs often face a two-way assault. There is damage from the virus but a second equally debilitating response takes place: The body’s own immune system goes into overdrive, causing more lung damage.

Some patients’ immune systems flare up, producing a lot of white blood cells that flood the infection site in the lungs, causing damage. They secrete a lot of cytokines that enhance the inflammation, says Dr. Kuritzkes. “That can make it difficult for people to breathe. All this fluid that accumulates and all these extra cells that don’t belong there create a barrier for oxygen exchange,”

One key feature that distinguishes Covid-19 from other viruses such as the flu is the high frequency of pneumonia, even in people with only mildly symptomatic cases, he says.

Studies of Covid-19 patients whose lungs were examined show several distinctive and unusual patterns. Adam Bernheim, a cardiothoracic radiologist at the Mount Sinai Hospital in New York, and co-researchers studied the chest CT chest scans of 121 positive coronavirus patients from China. They published their results in the journal Radiology last month.

The researchers found a striking pattern: The pneumonia progressed along the lungs’ outer edges, as evidenced by hazy, gray circular spots. “A normal lung is black, because it contains air,” says Dr. Bernheim. “In coronavirus with pneumonia, air is being replaced by cells, inflammation, fluid, debris and pus, so it starts to turn gray or even white.”

The spots developed in some patients within two days of symptom onset and were nearly universal in patients three days or more later. Dr. Bernheim says the pattern is different from garden-variety bacterial pneumonia that the flu often leads to, which often shows one very dense white area in the lung.

When the lung becomes progressively more damaged, that triggers what is known as acute respiratory distress syndrome, or ARDS. This typically develops seven to 14 days into the course of the illness.

The lungs become less efficient at exchanging oxygen and carbon dioxide and continue to become inflamed. Patients need assistance breathing because there’s no therapy to treat ARDS.

“The ventilator is buying time for the lung to repair itself after a virus has run its course and the immune system response has calmed down,” says Dr. Garibaldi.

Matthew Arentz, a pulmonary and critical care doctor at EvergreenHealth in Kirkland, Wash., published a study in JAMA earlier this month looking at the chest images of the first 21 critically ill Covid-19 patients in the U.S.

Two-thirds of the patients were from nursing facilities with an average age of 70-years-old and most had chronic medical conditions. Eighty-four percent required mechanical ventilation and only four people survived, says Dr. Arentz.

Chest X-rays demonstrated pneumonia in 19 of the 21 patients, all of whom developed ARDS.

Most of the patients who died were unable to maintain adequate oxygen levels due to diseased lungs. But one-third developed heart failure, which is another way some Covid-19 patients are dying.

Some doctors say that abrupt onset of heart problems seems to be another distinctive trait of Covid-19—heart failure was reported with MERS and does occur rarely with the flu, but appears to be a striking feature in some severe cases of Covid-19, says Dr. Kuritzkes.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-coronavirus-attacks-your-body-11585343549?mod=mhp
 
PlayerRep said:
BozAngelesGriz said:
PlayerRep said:
BozAngelesGriz said:
the rate of spread of this virus in America has also been unprecedented. so has the shortage of medical supplies. with a 3 month notice i would have hoped for more.

Not accurate.

Solutions always seem more clear in hindsight, I know. But as the most technologically and medically advanced nation on Earth, the writing was on the wall and we did not prepare. My significant other is an ICU nurse here in town, the lack of PPE and appropriate medical equipment is uncanny. I also work in emergency services, and (so far) most of our national approach to this situation has been reactive rather than proactive.

Perhaps more focus on future issues like that could or would occur, if the country didn't spend so much time on things like impeachment, Russian interference (less focus on Trump, but more focus on protecting elections in general), criticizing leaders (this includes the birther stuff against Obama). So much times, energy and money is wasted stuff like that. Both Repubs and Dems do it.

I tend to agree.
 
Trump talking about quarantine for NY, NJ and Conn. Think that would just mean that people couldn't leave those states to drive or fly elsewhere, I think. Not clear what legal authority would be. Trump said people are going to Florida, and "we don't want them". May be just another Trump trial balloon.
 
PlayerRep said:
Trump talking about quarantine for NY, NJ and Conn. Think that would just mean that people couldn't leave those states to drive or fly elsewhere, I think. Not clear what legal authority would be. Trump said people are going to Florida, and "we don't want them". May be just another Trump trial balloon.

News people were saying there were so many private planes in and around NYC that they were having trouble finding a place to park and that there was a general exodus out of the area.
 
A MT family I know just had "Zoom Wedding" with their son in NYC. The wedding was going to be in June, but the couple just decided to get married now and not have to figure out logistics for a June wedding. Lots participated by Zoom. First Zoom wedding I had heard of. I like Zoom. The Zoom Cocktails things is becoming popular kind of fun too.
 
cclarkblues said:
PlayerRep said:
Trump talking about quarantine for NY, NJ and Conn. Think that would just mean that people couldn't leave those states to drive or fly elsewhere, I think. Not clear what legal authority would be. Trump said people are going to Florida, and "we don't want them". May be just another Trump trial balloon.

News people were saying there were so many private planes in and around NYC that they were having trouble finding a place to park and that there was a general exodus out of the area.

A lot of people I know left the NYC area a few weeks ago, mainly to vacation houses. Some also rented places far away. Sometimes their adult kids/families in their 20's or so also went with them. We had 3 different people/families consult us about coming to Missoula, but I don't think any came. Two were from NYC. We have other NYC friends with a family place in MT, who have moved temporarily to MT. They said they would self-quarantine.
 
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