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Paoli's train defense

CV Griz Fan said:
m616s6w said:
Am I reading this incorrectly?

The front page phot in his morning's (Saturday) Missoulian shows Jordon Johnson's lawyer (David Paoli) holding up a large photo (about 18' X 24") of a train engine. I assume that his point is that once "she" invited Jordon to her bedroom, "the train had left the station" or "she she started the engine" so this was all her fault.

Paoli was using the back of the photo to take notes - that way he could hold the photo up for extended period of time. In respones, the prosecution lawyers asked jurors if they agreed with the statement: "If a woman starts the engine, she's kind of stuck with the consequences."

If I misread this, ok.

But, if his defense is that "she had it coming" I find that to be absurd and demeaning. Every juror would have been think that anyway, but to blatantly shove that in their faces during jury selection seems to me to be a crude Neanderthal defense. I have been one who thought Jordon was being wronged in this prosecution, but if his lawyers crudely argue that she had it coming, I am concerned for the outcome.

Do any of you lawyer types have a different take on this trial strategy?

By the way, the jury selection continues on Monday with the 400 potential jurors being reduced to 170 at this time.


Unfortunately, the train probably "left the station" in the days before the "alleged incident" when the accuser let it be known to both JJ and her friends "how bad she wanted him". Those statements by the accuser have been in the press stories. That fact doesn't make JJ's actions forgivable but it does complicate things IMO.

Well this brings up another big problem. Those statements are hearsay and not admissible except for a few instances. Hearsay is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at trail, offered into evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. So if you put one of those friends on the stand, who allegedly heard the victim say that, it is classic hearsay and not admissible. That statement would be offered to prove consent, which is the matter asserted. You can't get on the stand and say "X told me this." You have to put X on the stand themselves.

There are exceptions, like if the statement was an excited utterance (Oh my god, you just hit X with a car), dying declaration (I'm about to die, and X shot me), admission by a party opponent (I'm so sorry for running you over). Then you can put the hearsay declarant on the stand and the statement comes in.

One way to get around it is to say that the statement is offered just to show the effect on the hearer "X told me this, and it made me think _____." This is non hearsay because it is not being offered to prove that the statement is true, just what it did to the hearer's mind. Do you see the problem with this? You could try to get the statement in, but it would not go towards the weight of evidence at issue.

There are further ways to get these statements in but it is a much longer and complicated post. As a general rule, just know "he said/she said" is not admissible.
 
I think that calls for a musical interlude:

CClarkblues

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBP15lRprPs[/youtube]
 
mcg said:
So what's the point of the train poster? I don't get it.

I have no idea whatsoever. It does bring me to a possible related story. In my first year of law school Michael Tigar came and spoke to our school. Google him, he has a reputation for winning impossible cases and has argued 7 cases in front of the United States Supreme Court. He defended Terry Nichols of the Oklahoma City bombing. Anyway, he had a case where he was representing a female army member accused of having lesbian sex in her barracks, and was being dishonorably discharged. He told our school that at trial he would bring in stacks of homosexual pornographic magazines and spread them out over his table. He never used them at trial once. He said the purpose was to confuse the opposing counsel as to what he possibly could use them for at trail. He was essentially just wasting their trial preparation time each day. True story.

I have no idea if the train poster is being used along the same lines. You would have to ask him, but attorneys do this sort of thing.
 
Fortpeckgriz said:
I personally have no idea what strategy is at play here, especially during voir dire. Brint asked me to come on here and explain what was going on yesterday. Voir dire is not only the process of selecting jurors for trial, but also a time to start influencing the jury pool. The prosecution will ask jurors questions like, "If I show the elements of X crime, will you convict?" If the juror says yes, then at closing argument the prosecution will say, "I asked you if you would convict if I showed the elements of X crime. I have. I am holding you to your word." Likewise the defense will use the same strategy. That's why you saw questions yesterday such as "Do you think women lie about being sexually assaulted?" It is basic voir dire strategy.Think of it as running the dive in the first quarter so you can run the play action in the fourth.

Whether this strategy works or not is based on far too many other factors at trail. But if you are not using this strategy, you really are not doing your job. I have no idea where the train comes into play, but it seems odd that it would be used to eliminate prospective jurors or to influence them before trial. Remember, the substantive arguments haven't even begun yet, this is just the process of getting the jurors down to 12. Another thing that seems odd is people live tweeting and taking pictures inside the room. I know it is at the Holiday Inn, but I would think the judge would put an end to this pretty quickly.

A few other notes. It is important to understand that what you read in the paper (or egriz), or what you hear on the street, is nothing like what the jury will hear. The jury (in theory) is supposed to only consider relevant admissible evidence subject to the trial judge's discretion. If this evidence has little probative value and has the danger of: unfair prejudice, waste of time, misleading the jury, etc., the judge will exclude it and the jury may not consider it. Then at the end of trial the jury is given a set of instructions that say something like, "I you find that X, Y, and Z occurred (beyond a reasonable doubt), then you are to hold this way." The jury has a framework that they make their decision from, they can't just base their decision on whatever comes to mind.

Also, it will be interesting to see who testifies. I saw that the defense plans on calling two expert witnesses. There are a host of issues that go along with that, which probably should be saved for a different post. Also, there is a lot of strategy to putting the defendant on the stand to testify. This opens up "Pandora's Box" because the opposing side can then attack his character or reputation for truthfulness through cross or other witnesses. They CAN'T do that if it is not put into play first by the defendant.

One final note. There are special character evidence rules for rape victims. You are NOT allowed to offer reputation or opinion evidence of the victim's sexual disposition (i.e. she is the town hussy). The only thing you can show is 1) that the genetic material left was not the defendant's, and 2) past sexual encounters between the victim and defendant to show circumstantial evidence of consent. That is it. Again, town rumors are not heard nor considered by the jury.

I hope this helps clear up a few things.
Is that you, OJ?
 
Fortpeck,

Is it still hearsay if the person witnessed a conversation between two people. Such as, I testify that I heard X say yadayada to Y. In other words, can they call a witness to confirm or disprove a conversation between the victim and the accuser? Or is that a no go as well?
 
One final note. There are special character evidence rules for rape victims. You are NOT allowed to offer reputation or opinion evidence of the victim's sexual disposition (i.e. she is the town hussy). The only thing you can show is 1) that the genetic material left was not the defendant's, and 2) past sexual encounters between the victim and defendant to show circumstantial evidence of consent. That is it. Again, town rumors are not heard nor considered by the jury.



What about any previous allegations of rape made against other people? What about her medical records related to mental health, medications she was taking during the alleged incident and any previous in patient or our patient stays? I honestly have zero knowledge of the alleged victims past, but there have been many rumors flying about her previous history. At what point does this information become admissible in court or will this be excluded under reputation or opinion of evidence (or HIPAA)? If your entire post is accurate (it certainly seems to be and thank you for making it) then this could be much more of a he said - she said trial than I ever imagined and the defendant and victim testimonies will be critical. Ultimately who is more credible on the stand. Additionally, vetting the jury pool during Voir Dire may be one of the most important steps in this case and will be damn tough considering the amount of press coverage that has occurred thus far. I suppose this could be said for the majority of high profile cases in any city. Truthfully a cluster.
 
mtgrizrule said:
That is funny. The best time to go there would be for the Wolf Point Stampede. That is one fun weekend. :thumb: I had a few too many fun weekends that weekend. It has been years since I have been to it. I hope it has not lost anything over the years.

Not to hijack, but it has.
 
Fushiznitz said:
mcg said:
So what's the point of the train poster? I don't get it.

Obviously, he is setting up the classic Chewbacca Defense.

Ha!

tumblr_m3dqhkdD8e1r7mvdfo1_500.jpg
 
Copper Griz said:
One final note. There are special character evidence rules for rape victims. You are NOT allowed to offer reputation or opinion evidence of the victim's sexual disposition (i.e. she is the town hussy). The only thing you can show is 1) that the genetic material left was not the defendant's, and 2) past sexual encounters between the victim and defendant to show circumstantial evidence of consent. That is it. Again, town rumors are not heard nor considered by the jury.



What about any previous allegations of rape made against other people? What about her medical records related to mental health, medications she was taking during the alleged incident and any previous in patient or our patient stays? I honestly have zero knowledge of the alleged victims past, but there have been many rumors flying about her previous history. At what point does this information become admissible in court or will this be excluded under reputation or opinion of evidence (or HIPAA)? If your entire post is accurate (it certainly seems to be and thank you for making it) then this could be much more of a he said - she said trial than I ever imagined and the defendant and victim testimonies will be critical. Ultimately who is more credible on the stand. Additionally, vetting the jury pool during Voir Dire may be one of the most important steps in this case and will be damn tough considering the amount of press coverage that has occurred thus far. I suppose this could be said for the majority of high profile cases in any city. Truthfully a cluster.

And again, not saying you are wrong or that this won't come out at trial, but Dave Paoli bloviating is not a source. It isn't legit information. In the pre-trial motions back and forth between the State and JJ there were numerous statements made by Paoli that unequivocally boil down to the Chewbacca defense.
 
Jerry Punch said:
In the pre-trial motions back and forth between the State and JJ there were numerous statements made by Paoli that unequivocally boil down to the Chewbacca defense.
Please provide quotes.
 
The lack of experinced defense counsel, Paolis mistaken belief that he can bully his way through a trial. and divert attention from the real questions wih some half baked conspiracy theory will make things very difficult for JJ. Paoli should sit down shut up and let Pabst take this thing. Watching for a while on Friday, it occured to me that JJ had a change of demeanor. It was as if it occured to him, all of Paolis bloviating and bravado was problematic. He was indeed in deep shit, and what was going to happen in the trial was going to be a whole bunch different than the shit diet he has been fed for th past months. His tears were real, and I actuallly felt sorry for him. He is poorly prepared for whats coming.
 
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