Bison player suspended over banned substance

[CDAGRIZ]

I think I agree with you, in the event that the player is lying, and the banned drug did not come from a staff member.
- If it comes out that the drug came from a staff member, I think there will be major issues not relating to player eligibility, even if the staff member didn't know it was banned. Institutional control, lying AD, etc.
- If the player is lying and the AD is telling the truth that another student-athlete was distributing the banned drug, I still think there are a host of potential issues. (see my other post on that).

As for finding an example where players using banned drugs resulted in wins being vacated, I lost faith in any stare decisis when it comes the NCAA applying rules after what happened to UM. Put another way, there probably wasn't an example of a family member paying a few bucks to bail out a player, and then getting the money back, that resulted in wins being vacated before the UM sanctions.

The T-Buffs could have some pretty big issues from this no matter who is telling the truth.

Overall I’ll say the biggest issue is the lack of knowledge available to the player. This specific supplement is not on a banned list, but contains stimulants that are banned. This isn’t like he was taking anabolic steroids or trying to hide in a drug test. It was a workout powder you can buy at GNC.

There should be a concise list available so players know what is legal and not legal. It isn’t fair to the player.

I'd feel far different about this entire situation if this was an anabolic steroid, something specifically noted on the banned substance list, known admittance by a player saying they were taking something they knew was illegal etc etc.....but this, by all accounts, was an honest mistake. I really don't think Brock should be suspended.

1. The banned list is not exhaustive. It says so in the rules.
2. Banned is banned. Steroids or "pre-workout" or even $35 to bail out a scared family friend.
3. It doesn't matter if anyone knew it was banned. It is banned.
4. It all might suck, but thems the rules. And they aren't such if they aren't enforced.
5. The "biggest issue" isn't lack of knowledge available to the player. The biggest issue is (a) the kid is truthful, and the staff provided the banned drug; or (b) The AD is truthful, and there is a student-athlete who distributed banned drugs to student athlete(s). They can't both be telling the truth, and whichever one is lying creates issues.

Yes it says the list is not exhaustive....but it is pretty clear that in and of itself creates issues. Put a complete and extensive list out there. Then it is plain as day regarding what specific drugs are legal and illegal.

I 100% agree with you. But, that's not the rule now. Breaking rules and then saying the rules are unfair doesn't get you very far very often.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Wait just a minute here, is this for real? Please post those numbers again because they haven't sunk in after the 19th time you've posted them in this thread.

18 players are randomly selected for testing before every playoff game. Yes.

So, how many random tests does that equal since 2010? 250? 300?

You can do the math...or maybe you can’t

I can't.

 

[2011BisonAlumni]

Bison 2011...Unfortunately, all the NCAA athletes that have ever passed a test really don't count...it's expected that they do pass. It's the ones that don't that DON'T pass that raise the red flag. You have a guy that didn't and have a problem. It sucks but it's out there.

Correct but one player, taking a supplement that he didn’t know was illegal, and a motivational speaker recommending a supplement, that he also didn’t know was illegal, does not scream to me a lack of institutional control.

Brock should have went to the S&C coach, which is the standard protocol to make sure it was safe to us.

Wait. So it was someone on the payroll who gave him the banned drug? Is the AD lying?

No. Ben Newman is not an employee of North Dakota State University.

 

[2011BisonAlumni]

18 players are randomly selected for testing before every playoff game. Yes.

So, how many random tests does that equal since 2010? 250? 300?

You can do the math...or maybe you can’t

I can't.

Should have went to Montana State

 

[uofmman1122]

"18 random players" could be the same 18 players all year long.

"random" != "different", necessarily.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Bison 2011...Unfortunately, all the NCAA athletes that have ever passed a test really don't count...it's expected that they do pass. It's the ones that don't that DON'T pass that raise the red flag. You have a guy that didn't and have a problem. It sucks but it's out there.

Correct but one player, taking a supplement that he didn’t know was illegal, and a motivational speaker recommending a supplement, that he also didn’t know was illegal, does not scream to me a lack of institutional control.

Brock should have went to the S&C coach, which is the standard protocol to make sure it was safe to us.

Wait. So it was someone on the payroll who gave him the banned drug? Is the AD lying?

No. Ben Newman is not an employee of North Dakota State University.

Who paid him to hang around the players?

 

[CDAGRIZ]

So, how many random tests does that equal since 2010? 250? 300?

You can do the math...or maybe you can’t

I can't.

Should have went to Montana State

Are you trying to say it was nearly 600 tests? If so, why didn't you say so before?

 

[2011BisonAlumni]

Overall I’ll say the biggest issue is the lack of knowledge available to the player. This specific supplement is not on a banned list, but contains stimulants that are banned. This isn’t like he was taking anabolic steroids or trying to hide in a drug test. It was a workout powder you can buy at GNC.

There should be a concise list available so players know what is legal and not legal. It isn’t fair to the player.

I'd feel far different about this entire situation if this was an anabolic steroid, something specifically noted on the banned substance list, known admittance by a player saying they were taking something they knew was illegal etc etc.....but this, by all accounts, was an honest mistake. I really don't think Brock should be suspended.

1. The banned list is not exhaustive. It says so in the rules.
2. Banned is banned. Steroids or "pre-workout" or even $35 to bail out a scared family friend.
3. It doesn't matter if anyone knew it was banned. It is banned.
4. It all might suck, but thems the rules. And they aren't such if they aren't enforced.
5. The "biggest issue" isn't lack of knowledge available to the player. The biggest issue is (a) the kid is truthful, and the staff provided the banned drug; or (b) The AD is truthful, and there is a student-athlete who distributed banned drugs to student athlete(s). They can't both be telling the truth, and whichever one is lying creates issues.

Yes it says the list is not exhaustive....but it is pretty clear that in and of itself creates issues. Put a complete and extensive list out there. Then it is plain as day regarding what specific drugs are legal and illegal.

I 100% agree with you. But, that's not the rule now. Breaking rules and then saying the rules are unfair doesn't get you very far very often.

Which is why he got suspended.

 

[PlayerRep]

Wait....ndsu had players using banned substances? Color me shocked!

:roll:

Every college football program in the country has a player who takes an illegal supplement at one point or another. It happens and significant portion of those players do not know what they are taking is illegal. Had a really good friend of mine (went to D2 school) who had a hip surgery, lost a bunch of weight and was taking a supplement suggested by his doctor. Didn't run it through the S&C coach to vet it and he got popped.

To suggest that NDSU, as a program, is getting some big edge is comical...at best.Again, nearly 600 NDSU players at NDSU, since 2010, have been randomly tested in the playoffs by the NCAA, and one got popped for a workout supplement.

It' a crappy deal but nobody was trying to do anything intentional. Brock didn't know it was illegal and the individual who suggested it didn't know as well.

Wait just a minute here, is this for real? Please post those numbers again because they haven't sunk in after the 19th time you've posted them in this thread.

18 players are randomly selected for testing before every playoff game. Yes.

Are you saying they are selected before the game or tested before the game?

 

[2011BisonAlumni]

"18 random players" could be the same 18 players all year long.

"random" != "different", necessarily.

No . That is not how it works.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

1. The banned list is not exhaustive. It says so in the rules.
2. Banned is banned. Steroids or "pre-workout" or even $35 to bail out a scared family friend.
3. It doesn't matter if anyone knew it was banned. It is banned.
4. It all might suck, but thems the rules. And they aren't such if they aren't enforced.
5. The "biggest issue" isn't lack of knowledge available to the player. The biggest issue is (a) the kid is truthful, and the staff provided the banned drug; or (b) The AD is truthful, and there is a student-athlete who distributed banned drugs to student athlete(s). They can't both be telling the truth, and whichever one is lying creates issues.

Yes it says the list is not exhaustive....but it is pretty clear that in and of itself creates issues. Put a complete and extensive list out there. Then it is plain as day regarding what specific drugs are legal and illegal.

I 100% agree with you. But, that's not the rule now. Breaking rules and then saying the rules are unfair doesn't get you very far very often.

Which is why he got suspended.

No fooling you!

 

[CDAGRIZ]

"18 random players" could be the same 18 players all year long.

"random" != "different", necessarily.

No . That is not how it works.

That's actually exactly how random works. Random =/= completely different in any fixed sample in multiple trials. That's beside the point, however. The main issue is we are zeroing in on a person being paid by the program at the time being the one who supplied the banned drugs. Not great.

 

[2011BisonAlumni]

Every college football program in the country has a player who takes an illegal supplement at one point or another. It happens and significant portion of those players do not know what they are taking is illegal. Had a really good friend of mine (went to D2 school) who had a hip surgery, lost a bunch of weight and was taking a supplement suggested by his doctor. Didn't run it through the S&C coach to vet it and he got popped.

To suggest that NDSU, as a program, is getting some big edge is comical...at best.Again, nearly 600 NDSU players at NDSU, since 2010, have been randomly tested in the playoffs by the NCAA, and one got popped for a workout supplement.

It' a crappy deal but nobody was trying to do anything intentional. Brock didn't know it was illegal and the individual who suggested it didn't know as well.

Wait just a minute here, is this for real? Please post those numbers again because they haven't sunk in after the 19th time you've posted them in this thread.

18 players are randomly selected for testing before every playoff game. Yes.

Are you saying they are selected before the game or tested before the game?

Tested game day. Outside entity does it.

 

[tourist]

2011BisonAlumni is whistling while walking through the graveyard.

 

[2011BisonAlumni]

Correct but one player, taking a supplement that he didn’t know was illegal, and a motivational speaker recommending a supplement, that he also didn’t know was illegal, does not scream to me a lack of institutional control.

Brock should have went to the S&C coach, which is the standard protocol to make sure it was safe to us.

Wait. So it was someone on the payroll who gave him the banned drug? Is the AD lying?

No. Ben Newman is not an employee of North Dakota State University.

Who paid him to hang around the players?

I don’t know, but he’s not an employee of the university.

NCAA Nutritional/Dietary Supplements Warning clearly states that before consuming a dietary supplement, review the product with the athletics department and designated athletics department staff.

An outside consultant, who does rah rah speeches, is not such a person.

Brock should have ran it through the actual coaching staff.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Wait. So it was someone on the payroll who gave him the banned drug? Is the AD lying?

No. Ben Newman is not an employee of North Dakota State University.

Who paid him to hang around the players?

I don’t know, but he’s not an employee of the university.

NCAA Nutritional/Dietary Supplements Warning clearly states that before consuming a dietary supplement, review the product with the athletics department and designated athletics department staff.

An outside consultant, who does rah rah speeches, is not such a person.

Brock should have ran it through the actual coaching staff.

Bud, it doesn't matter. He was a, "Representative of an institution's athletics interests". Griz fans know about this, I promise.

If you're a guy getting paid to give "rah rah" speeches to hockey players at UND, and you give those guys PEDs (knowingly or not), I don't think UND could just say, "Well, we paid him to give rah rah speeches, but he's not technically a state employee, so we're all good." If I'm wrong, all programs are missing a huge loophole. This isn't even considering the mess of your AD saying the banned drugs were from another student-athlete.

 

[2011BisonAlumni]

No. Ben Newman is not an employee of North Dakota State University.

Who paid him to hang around the players?

I don’t know, but he’s not an employee of the university.

NCAA Nutritional/Dietary Supplements Warning clearly states that before consuming a dietary supplement, review the product with the athletics department and designated athletics department staff.

An outside consultant, who does rah rah speeches, is not such a person.

Brock should have ran it through the actual coaching staff.

Bud, it doesn't matter. He was a, "Representative of an institution's athletics interests". Griz fans know about this, I promise.

If you're a guy getting paid to give "rah rah" speeches to hockey players at UND, and you give those guys PEDs (knowingly or not), I don't think UND could just say, "Well, we paid him to give rah rah speeches, but he's not technically a state employee, so we're all good." If I'm wrong, all programs are missing a huge loophole. This isn't even considering the mess of your AD saying the banned drugs were from another student-athlete.

Why do you assume the AD is lying?

You live in Southern Cali. Didn’t know you had insider information on the NDSU football program.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Who paid him to hang around the players?

I don’t know, but he’s not an employee of the university.

NCAA Nutritional/Dietary Supplements Warning clearly states that before consuming a dietary supplement, review the product with the athletics department and designated athletics department staff.

An outside consultant, who does rah rah speeches, is not such a person.

Brock should have ran it through the actual coaching staff.

Bud, it doesn't matter. He was a, "Representative of an institution's athletics interests". Griz fans know about this, I promise.

If you're a guy getting paid to give "rah rah" speeches to hockey players at UND, and you give those guys PEDs (knowingly or not), I don't think UND could just say, "Well, we paid him to give rah rah speeches, but he's not technically a state employee, so we're all good." If I'm wrong, all programs are missing a huge loophole. This isn't even considering the mess of your AD saying the banned drugs were from another student-athlete.

Why do you assume the AD is lying?

Because you're saying the banned drug came from a "rah rah" speaker. Didn't the AD say the banned drug came from another student-athlete? Please correct me as needed as I don't wish to accuse rah rah speakers nor ADs. Who is the liar? The player, or the AD?

 

[2011BisonAlumni]

I don’t know, but he’s not an employee of the university.

NCAA Nutritional/Dietary Supplements Warning clearly states that before consuming a dietary supplement, review the product with the athletics department and designated athletics department staff.

An outside consultant, who does rah rah speeches, is not such a person.

Brock should have ran it through the actual coaching staff.

Bud, it doesn't matter. He was a, "Representative of an institution's athletics interests". Griz fans know about this, I promise.

If you're a guy getting paid to give "rah rah" speeches to hockey players at UND, and you give those guys PEDs (knowingly or not), I don't think UND could just say, "Well, we paid him to give rah rah speeches, but he's not technically a state employee, so we're all good." If I'm wrong, all programs are missing a huge loophole. This isn't even considering the mess of your AD saying the banned drugs were from another student-athlete.

Why do you assume the AD is lying?

Because you're saying the banned drug came from a "rah rah" speaker. Didn't the AD say the banned drug came from another student-athlete? Please correct me as needed as I don't wish to accuse rah rah speakers nor ADs. Who is the liar? The player, or the AD?

It did, yes, but not directly. I know that for a fact. When did I say Brock Robbins got a supplement directly from Ben Newman????

Again, Ben Newman is not an employee of the University....he works with tons of college programs and professional organizations.

Regardless of the situation, Brock should have vetted it as being legal himself. That is the unfortunate situation the NCAA has put itself in with an incomplete list and leaving responsibility to the student athletes.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Bud, it doesn't matter. He was a, "Representative of an institution's athletics interests". Griz fans know about this, I promise.

If you're a guy getting paid to give "rah rah" speeches to hockey players at UND, and you give those guys PEDs (knowingly or not), I don't think UND could just say, "Well, we paid him to give rah rah speeches, but he's not technically a state employee, so we're all good." If I'm wrong, all programs are missing a huge loophole. This isn't even considering the mess of your AD saying the banned drugs were from another student-athlete.

Why do you assume the AD is lying?

Because you're saying the banned drug came from a "rah rah" speaker. Didn't the AD say the banned drug came from another student-athlete? Please correct me as needed as I don't wish to accuse rah rah speakers nor ADs. Who is the liar? The player, or the AD?

When did I say Brock Robbins got a supplement directly from Ben Newman????

I don't know who Ben Newman is. I thought you were saying that a rah rah speaker was the source of the drugs. Are you saying that another student athlete was the source of the drugs, and that the suspended player and his family are all liars?

EDIT: regarding your edit, Benny Newman was a "representative of an institution's athletics interests". Let's assume the entire UNDSU graduating class from 2011 is defending this. It's not a great start.