Some Ask a Taboo Question: Is America Overreacting to Coronavirus?

[PlayerRep]

"The U.S. Tried to Build a New Fleet of Ventilators. The Mission Failed."

"As the coronavirus spreads, the collapse of the project helps explain America’s acute shortage."

"Thirteen years ago, a group of U.S. public health officials came up with a plan to address what they regarded as one of the medical system’s crucial vulnerabilities: a shortage of ventilators.

The breathing-assistance machines tended to be bulky, expensive and limited in number. The plan was to build a large fleet of inexpensive portable devices to deploy in a flu pandemic or another crisis.

Money was budgeted. A federal contract was signed. Work got underway.

And then things suddenly veered off course. [In 2012, a] multibillion-dollar maker of medical devices bought the small California company that had been hired to design the new machines. The project ultimately produced zero ventilators.

That failure delayed the development of an affordable ventilator by at least half a decade, depriving hospitals, states and the federal government of the ability to stock up. The federal government started over with another company in 2014, whose ventilator was approved only last year and whose products have not yet been delivered.

In 2015, Covidien was sold for $50 billion to another huge medical device company, Medtronic.

It wasn’t until last July that the F.D.A. signed off on the new Philips ventilator, the Trilogy Evo. The government ordered 10,000 units in December, setting a delivery date in mid-2020.

As the extent of the spread of the new coronavirus in the United States became clear, Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, revealed on March 15 that the stockpile had 12,700 ventilators ready to deploy. The government has since sped up maintenance to increase the number available to 16,660 — still fewer than a quarter of what officials years earlier had estimated would be required in a moderate flu pandemic.

Last week, the Health and Human Services Department contacted ventilator makers to see how soon they could produce thousands of machines. And it began pressing Philips to speed up its planned shipments.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

 

[PlayerRep]

Idaho, this doctor on a small French island in The Atlantic agrees with you on the "selfish" thing.

"Rich Europeans Flea Virus for Second Homes"

"On their peaceful island off France’s Atlantic Coast, some of the locals watched, with growing dread and rage, the images from Paris. As rumors began circulating about an imminent nationwide lockdown to stem the coronavirus outbreak, hordes of Parisians jammed into trains, an odd surfboard sometimes sticking out of the crowd.

There was no doubt about their destination.

“Irresponsible and selfish,” thought Dr. Cyrille Vartanian, one of the six physicians on Noirmoutier. With some time to spare — Paris was roughly five hours away — a local mayor, Noël Faucher, moved to block the only bridge to the mainland. But the national authorities said it would be illegal.

“We were powerless because people were not confined to their principal residences,” Mr. Faucher recalled, describing the influx as “an invasion.”

Overnight, the island’s population nearly doubled, to 20,000. Nearly two weeks after the nationwide lockdown went into effect on March 17, there are about 70 suspected cases of the coronavirus on the island.

Perhaps more than anything else, the influx into second homes has ignited anger over what the global pandemic is laying bare every day: the ever widening gap between the rich and the poor. Nowhere is that anger rawer than in France, which has 3.4 million second homes — far more than any of its neighbors — and whose domestic politics have been roiled in recent years by debates over inequality.

According to both locals and Parisians on the island, some urbanites arrived in Noirmoutier and headed straight to the beach. They were seen picnicking, kite surfing, jogging and biking. In retribution, tires of about half a dozen cars with Paris plates were slashed.

“Their behavior was unacceptable,’’ said Frédéric Boucard, 47, an oyster farmer. “It’s as if they were on vacation.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/world/europe/rich-coronavirus-second-homes.html

 

[Cuervohola]

none of those citations are from cuervohla. cuervohola dismissed them all as worthless, or likely to be worthless. read the original post, with cuervohola's response. he wrote, for instance, that harvard's info can't be trusted because he believes them to be linked to big pharma.

WOW... Do you seriously think that Pharma will bombard us all day long on TV, Internet, Radio, Newsprint etc. with Endless ads, yet they will absolutely NOT be involved in the curriculum of Medical Schools? Just let the students graduate with an MD without having any knowledge about the litany of Drugs there are?

Serious?

I have seen more MD's and PhD's on camera in various documentaries than I can count that have said Pharma controls everything about the courses. They say that, and that they get around an Hour of lectures on proper nutrition. Not a credit hour, 60 minutes. In their entire time from first day student through their entire residency, to when they are an official MD. Then it keeps on keeping on.

So, lets take the linking of Pharma to Medical Schools. Pharma pays for EVERYTHING, just like Pharma pays for EVERYTHING at the News Networks. "Just show our shiny happy people ads F'N constantly, don't say anything against drugs or vaccines, and we will cover ALL of your expenses, including anchor pay."

How doesn't "Follow the Money" line up for you???

https://in-training.org/drugged-greed-pharmaceutical-industrys-role-us-medical-education-10639

 

[PlayerRep]

US regulations and bureaucracy seem to have slowed things down. Note that most of the regulations were put in place under prior administrations. Note that Trump has been known for getting rid of regulations. He and his administration has gotten involved in pushing the FDA. I don't know enough to blame anyone or anything. Just researching and learning. Trump is getting some blame for various things, but I'm not so sure he deserves blame for some of the regulations put in place in prior administrations.

"The FDA Is Forcing the CDC to Waste Time Double Testing Some Coronavirus Cases"

"Update, March 17, 2020: On Sunday, March 15, the Food and Drug Administration revised its Emergency Use Authorization to no longer require public health laboratories to send their tests to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for confirmation.

Progress was already delayed because the CDC decided to make its own test rather than adopting the design endorsed by the World Health Organization. The test then didn’t work properly and had to be fixed. [It was a rule that the CDC was in charge of doing/overseeing this, by rule/regulation. The FDA also has to approve new devices.]

On Feb. 4, the FDA, which regulates devices as well as drugs, released a document called an Emergency Use Authorization to govern the use of the test. The goal of the emergency authorization is to short-circuit the typically onerous regulatory review that the agency imposes on new diagnostic devices — a process that can take months to years.

In the face of an imminent outbreak, however, the stringently written EUA appears to have become more of a hindrance than a help. Because of the requirement that the CDC rerun tests conducted by public health labs, as of two weeks ago the CDC’s website was lagging in its tally because it was only reporting confirmed cases. The CDC is now reporting both presumptive positives, which have been....



Private testing for COVID-19 only recently got started at facilities like Northwell Health Labs in Lake Success, New York. (Andrew Theodorakis/Getty Images)
Series: Coronavirus

Is the United States Prepared for COVID-19?

Update, March 17, 2020: On Sunday, March 15, the Food and Drug Administration revised its Emergency Use Authorization to no longer require public health laboratories to send their tests to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for confirmation.

ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power. Sign up to receive our biggest stories as soon as they’re published.

A federal directive that’s supposed to speed up the response to a pandemic is actually slowing down the government’s rollout of coronavirus tests.

The directive, issued by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, requires that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a sister agency, retest every positive coronavirus test run by a public health lab to confirm its accuracy. The result, experts say, is wasting limited resources at a time when thousands of Americans are waiting in line to get tested for COVID-19.

The duplicative effort is the latest obstacle that is slowing the federal response to COVID-19, which has infected more than 1,300 people and resulted in 38 deaths in the United States. Progress was already delayed because the CDC decided to make its own test rather than adopting the design endorsed by the World Health Organization. The test then didn’t work properly and had to be fixed. The problems were further compounded by delays in certifying tests by private laboratories as well as a shortage of supplies and raw materials used for testing.

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On Feb. 4, the FDA, which regulates devices as well as drugs, released a document called an Emergency Use Authorization to govern the use of the test. The goal of the emergency authorization is to short-circuit the typically onerous regulatory review that the agency imposes on new diagnostic devices — a process that can take months to years.

In the face of an imminent outbreak, however, the stringently written EUA appears to have become more of a hindrance than a help. Because of the requirement that the CDC rerun tests conducted by public health labs, as of two weeks ago the CDC’s website was lagging in its tally because it was only reporting confirmed cases. The CDC is now reporting both presumptive positives, which have been tested only by local labs, as well as cases it has confirmed.

“This is the time when we need as many tests as we can very quickly, because we need to know what is happening in this country,” said Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician and former health commissioner for the city of Baltimore. “Right now we are in the dark about the degree of COVID-19 spread. It’s hard for us to proceed to do our work in public health without concrete information.”

The CDC says it is simply following the process set out by federal regulations, though it couldn’t say how many false positives, if any, have shown up in the verification process.

“The regulatory language of the EUA dictated that,” CDC spokesman Richard Quartarone said. “We have to follow the rules. If we don’t follow the rules, FDA could shut us down. That is a real thing.”

The CDC is designed to serve as a short-term bridge to widespread testing while it analyzes a new disease and makes sure diagnostic tests are working correctly before handing the role off to the private sector, Quartarone said. If duplication hadn’t been required, the CDC may have been able to help with more front-line testing before private-sector labs took over, he said.

The emergency authorization also slowed the process of tests offered by private labs, which became available last week. The FDA initially required private labs to copy the CDC’s test design and have the agency review theirtests before allowing them to begin testing. It took more than three weeks and growing criticism for the FDA to update its guidelines to allow certain academic labs to start testing once they had validated their tests internally.

[As you have probably seen, the original test kit developed by the CDC didn't work. I read somewhere, but can't locate now, that the test device was quite complicated and also tested for things other than C-19. I also read that it worked for testing C-19, but not for some of the other stuff. It was scrapped, causing more delay.]

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-fda-is-forcing-the-cdc-to-waste-time-double-testing-some-coronavirus-cases

 

[PlayerRep]

How Sweden is handing the virus problem. More relaxed approach. Another poster already posted on this subject earlier, or posted a linked article.

"Sweden Is Open for Business During Its Coronavirus Outbreak"

"While Denmark and Norway closed their borders, restaurants and ski slopes and told all students to stay home this month, Sweden shut only its high schools and colleges, kept its preschools, grade schools, pubs, restaurants and borders open — and put no limits on the slopes.

In fact, Sweden has stayed open for business while other nations beyond Scandinavia have attacked the outbreak with various measures ambitious in their scope and reach."

"By Saturday, Norway, population 5.3 million, had more than 3,770 coronavirus cases and 19 deaths; Denmark, population 5.6 million, reported 2,200 cases and 52 deaths; Sweden, with 10.12 million people, recorded more than 3,060 cases and 105 deaths."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/world/europe/sweden-coronavirus.html

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/24/sweden-coronavirus-open-for-business/

 

[PlayerRep]

Everett, I got this unsolicited email from a friend in the Seattle area. He's plugged in generally, and has been on the board of a major Seattle hospital.

"Doctor told me initially, and I have been told repeatedly by others:

Wash hands and don’t touch face - especially eyes and mouth.

It's hard to get tes the virus from aerosol spray or airborne unless fairly lengthy exposure.

Watch out for hand to mouth and eyes, as that is best evidence of most common transmission method, my doctor friend originally told me and NYC doctors are advising over and over."

 

[EverettGriz]

none of those citations are from cuervohla. cuervohola dismissed them all as worthless, or likely to be worthless. read the original post, with cuervohola's response. he wrote, for instance, that harvard's info can't be trusted because he believes them to be linked to big pharma.

WOW... Do you seriously think that Pharma will bombard us all day long on TV, Internet, Radio, Newsprint etc. with Endless ads, yet they will absolutely NOT be involved in the curriculum of Medical Schools? Just let the students graduate with an MD without having any knowledge about the litany of Drugs there are?

Serious?

I have seen more MD's and PhD's on camera in various documentaries than I can count that have said Pharma controls everything about the courses. They say that, and that they get around an Hour of lectures on proper nutrition. Not a credit hour, 60 minutes. In their entire time from first day student through their entire residency, to when they are an official MD. Then it keeps on keeping on.

So, lets take the linking of Pharma to Medical Schools. Pharma pays for EVERYTHING, just like Pharma pays for EVERYTHING at the News Networks. "Just show our shiny happy people ads F'N constantly, don't say anything against drugs or vaccines, and we will cover ALL of your expenses, including anchor pay."

How doesn't "Follow the Money" line up for you???

https://in-training.org/drugged-greed-pharmaceutical-industrys-role-us-medical-education-10639

So I can only presume that anything on fox news regarding Vitamin C isn't to be trusted since they run ads for Nature's Way?

 

[EverettGriz]

Everett, I got this unsolicited email from a friend in the Seattle area. He's plugged in generally, and has been on the board of a major Seattle hospital.

"Doctor told me initially, and I have been told repeatedly by others:

Wash hands and don’t touch face - especially eyes and mouth.

It's hard to get tes the virus from aerosol spray or airborne unless fairly lengthy exposure.

Watch out for hand to mouth and eyes, as that is best evidence of most common transmission method, my doctor friend originally told me and NYC doctors are advising over and over."

I'd say that's largely true of any virus: that it's contracted mostly by people touching their eyes, nose or mouth. Most experts I've heard would disagree with the prolonged exposure piece, including my friend the virologist. The thought process is that since this disease appears far more contagious than other viruses, it cannot only be transmitted in the most common ways, and that inhaling airborne particles must play a role.

Bottom line is, though, no one has all the answers.

 

[Cuervohola]

So I can only presume that anything on fox news regarding Vitamin C isn't to be trusted since they run ads for Nature's Way?

Fox News is owned by Pharma like all the others. Nature's Way is owned by Pharma, like (as far as I care to know) almost 100 percent of the bargain bin supplement companies. They are absolute garbage. Take enough of those supplements, and you will need medical intervention.

 

[Cuervohola]

Everett, I got this unsolicited email from a friend in the Seattle area. He's plugged in generally, and has been on the board of a major Seattle hospital.

"Doctor told me initially, and I have been told repeatedly by others:

Wash hands and don’t touch face - especially eyes and mouth.

It's hard to get tes the virus from aerosol spray or airborne unless fairly lengthy exposure.

Watch out for hand to mouth and eyes, as that is best evidence of most common transmission method, my doctor friend originally told me and NYC doctors are advising over and over."

I'd say that's largely true of any virus: that it's contracted mostly by people touching their eyes, nose or mouth. Most experts I've heard would disagree with the prolonged exposure piece, including my friend the virologist. The thought process is that since this disease appears far more contagious than other viruses, it cannot only be transmitted in the most common ways, and that inhaling airborne particles must play a role.

Bottom line is, though, no one has all the answers.

Ok, you're right about none of us having all the answers, but if your friend is right, that defeats the 6 foot rule completely. You can't go to Costco or any other store for that matter.

Now, I would think since a sneeze usually includes snot, and snot is heavier than air, most of the virus *would* hit the ground if somebody didn't cover, but I will turn and leave said store if that happens.

Now, you can't get a cold from a family member by being in the same air as them unless they are hacking their brains out. Can you with Covid?

Don't know. Nobody has said whether the virus is heavier than air or not.

 

[PlayerRep]

My kids are telling me that there are $60, and even $52, one way tickets to and from Missoula airport, to lots of places. Let's take a trip to NYC. Ha.

 

[IdaGriz01]

Idaho, this doctor on a small French island in The Atlantic agrees with you on the "selfish" thing.

"Rich Europeans Flee Virus for Second Homes"

"On their peaceful island off France’s Atlantic Coast, some of the locals watched, with growing dread and rage, the images from Paris. As rumors began circulating about an imminent nationwide lockdown to stem the coronavirus outbreak, hordes of Parisians jammed into trains, an odd surfboard sometimes sticking out of the crowd.

There was no doubt about their destination.

“Irresponsible and selfish,” thought Dr. Cyrille Vartanian, one of the six physicians on Noirmoutier. ...
According to both locals and Parisians on the island, some urbanites arrived in Noirmoutier and headed straight to the beach. They were seen picnicking, kite surfing, jogging and biking. In retribution, tires of about half a dozen cars with Paris plates were slashed.

“Their behavior was unacceptable,’’ said Frédéric Boucard, 47, an oyster farmer. “It’s as if they were on vacation.”

"Irresponsible" seems like another good word.

But here's the other thing: It's also dumb. The places these people have headed for are attractive because they are small and "off the beaten track." That also means (1) Supplies of just about everything (like T-paper and food) will be limited and generally not easily replaced. (2) The medical facilities will almost always be more limited (sometimes much more limited). Anyone who does come down with the virus (local or transplant) will be SOOL. As I said in an earlier post, it's just about bound to happen ... and is likely to be disastrous.

 

[Spanky2]

Appears to me to be a race between the virus and humans hoping for a vaccine that will be effective against the virus. At the moment, advantage virus.

 

[PlayerRep]

An interesting view against self-quaranting:

"Italy Home Quarantine Repeats Mistake Made in China, Doctors Say
Italy needs to shift to mass quarantining of coronavirus patients with mild symptoms instead of letting them isolate at home, according to a group of Chinese experts who traveled to the European nation to advise officials there.

"Italy needs to shift to mass quarantining of coronavirus patients with mild symptoms instead of letting them isolate at home, according to a group of Chinese experts who traveled to the European nation to advise officials there.

Doctors in Wuhan made the same error early on in the outbreak, said Liang Zong’An, head of the respiratory department at the West China Hospital at Sichuan University. While seriously ill patients were admitted to hospitals, doctors at the time recommended that those with mild symptoms isolate themselves at home, in part to reduce the strain on Wuhan’s overburdened health care system.
Back then, it was not well understood how infectious the virus can be even in those who don’t seem very sick. But researchers now know that those with mild symptoms who are told to stay at home usually risked passing the virus to family members, as well as to others outside their homes as some still moved around freely."


Read in Bloomberg: https://apple.news/AAeeoXyAmQIqEzAgamiJAxQ

 

[IdaGriz01]

An interesting view against self-quaranting:

"Italy Home Quarantine Repeats Mistake Made in China, Doctors Say
Italy needs to shift to mass quarantining of coronavirus patients with mild symptoms instead of letting them isolate at home, according to a group of Chinese experts who traveled to the European nation to advise officials there.

"Italy needs to shift to mass quarantining of coronavirus patients with mild symptoms instead of letting them isolate at home, according to a group of Chinese experts who traveled to the European nation to advise officials there.

Doctors in Wuhan made the same error early on in the outbreak, said Liang Zong’An, head of the respiratory department at the West China Hospital at Sichuan University. While seriously ill patients were admitted to hospitals, doctors at the time recommended that those with mild symptoms isolate themselves at home, in part to reduce the strain on Wuhan’s overburdened health care system.
Back then, it was not well understood how infectious the virus can be even in those who don’t seem very sick. But researchers now know that those with mild symptoms who are told to stay at home usually risked passing the virus to family members, as well as to others outside their homes as some still moved around freely."

Read in Bloomberg: https://apple.news/AAeeoXyAmQIqEzAgamiJAxQ

Makes sense and seems like good information (maybe the only good info to come out of China ). Seems like "self isolate" has to be interpreted more strictly when there are actual symptoms, even if they're mild. Plus, if you are in self quarantine, you should also probably be doing a lot of cleaning and disinfecting. (And stay the f***ing home.)

 

[PlayerRep]

"A choir decided to go ahead with rehearsal. Now dozens of members have COVID-19 and two are dead"

"Sixty singers showed up. A greeter offered hand sanitizer at the door, and members refrained from the usual hugs and handshakes.

“It seemed like a normal rehearsal, except that choirs are huggy places,” Burdick recalled. “We were making music and trying to keep a certain distance between each other.”

After 2 1/2 hours, the singers parted ways at 9 p.m.

Nearly three weeks later, 45 have been diagnosed with COVID-19 or ill with the symptoms, at least three have been hospitalized, and two are dead.

Everybody came with their own sheet music and avoided direct physical contact. Some members helped set up or remove folding chairs. A few helped themselves to mandarins that had been put out on a table in back.

Experts said the choir outbreak is consistent with a growing body of evidence that the virus can be transmitted through aerosols – particles smaller than 5 micrometers that can float in the air for minutes or longer.

The World Health Organization has downplayed the possibility of transmission in aerosols, stressing that the virus is spread through much larger “respiratory droplets,” which are emitted when an infected person coughs or sneezes and quickly fall to a surface.

But a study published March 17 in the New England Journal of Medicine found that when the virus was suspended in a mist under laboratory conditions it remained “viable and infectious” for three hours – though researchers have said that time period would probably be no more than a half-hour in real-world conditions.

One of the authors of that study, Jamie Lloyd-Smith, a University of California, Los Angeles infectious disease researcher, said it’s possible that the forceful breathing action of singing dispersed viral particles in the church room that were widely inhaled.

“One could imagine that really trying to project your voice would also project more droplets and aerosols,” he said

The two couples entered the rented church hall – roughly the size of a volleyball court – and offered their hands for the disinfectant.

Cushioned metal chairs extended in six rows of 20, with about a foot between chairs and one aisle down the center. There were twice as many seats as people.

Given the anxiety over the coronavirus, the conductor decided to lead off with a piece called “Sing On.”

The singers inhaled deeply, and sang the chorus with gusto: “Sing on! Whatever comes your way, sing on! Sing on!”

At one point the members broke into two groups, each standing around separate pianos to sing.

When it was time to leave, Burdick’s wife, Lorraine, a contralto who also sang professionally, refrained from her custom of embracing friends.

Instead, she curtsied her goodbyes."

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/mar/29/a-choir-decided-to-go-ahead-with-rehearsal-now-doz/

 

[cclarkblues]

An interesting view against self-quaranting:

"Italy Home Quarantine Repeats Mistake Made in China, Doctors Say
Italy needs to shift to mass quarantining of coronavirus patients with mild symptoms instead of letting them isolate at home, according to a group of Chinese experts who traveled to the European nation to advise officials there.

"Italy needs to shift to mass quarantining of coronavirus patients with mild symptoms instead of letting them isolate at home, according to a group of Chinese experts who traveled to the European nation to advise officials there.

Doctors in Wuhan made the same error early on in the outbreak, said Liang Zong’An, head of the respiratory department at the West China Hospital at Sichuan University. While seriously ill patients were admitted to hospitals, doctors at the time recommended that those with mild symptoms isolate themselves at home, in part to reduce the strain on Wuhan’s overburdened health care system.
Back then, it was not well understood how infectious the virus can be even in those who don’t seem very sick. But researchers now know that those with mild symptoms who are told to stay at home usually risked passing the virus to family members, as well as to others outside their homes as some still moved around freely."


Read in Bloomberg: https://apple.news/AAeeoXyAmQIqEzAgamiJAxQ

How very sad.

 

[zengriz]

...overwhelming percentage...
...people with covid 19...
...overweight...

... :shock: ...

 

[PlayerRep]

"FDA issues emergency authorization of anti-malaria drug for coronavirus care"

"The Food and Drug Administration on Sunday issued an emergency use authorization for hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, decades-old malaria drugs championed by President Donald Trump for coronavirus treatment despite scant evidence.

The agency allowed for the drugs to be "donated to the Strategic National Stockpile to be distributed and prescribed by doctors to hospitalized teen and adult patients with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible," HHS said in a statement, announcing that Sandoz donated 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine to the stockpile and Bayer donated 1 million doses of chloroquine.

The move was supported by the White House, part of a larger Trump-backed effort to speed the use of anti-malaria drugs as a potential therapy for a virus that has no proven treatment or cure. FDA already has allowed New York state to test administering the medication to seriously ill patients, and some hospitals have added it to their treatment protocols.


"Let's see how it works," Trump said at a press briefing on Sunday, referencing New York state's efforts. "It may. It may not."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/29/fda-emergency-authorization-anti-malaria-drug-155095

 

[PlayerRep]

"We can now test for antibodies to determine whether a person had COVID-19. This is a blood test."

Worldmeters website

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/