Pflu: "...team knows the president made a mistake"

[signedbewildered]

"....RE might have moved on by then too....."

Pretty sure Royce would have to "move on" before Pflu would end up back here. Move on or get "moved out" I guess you could say. Preferably the latter.

 

[Gametime]

Gametime, I couldn’t disagree with you more.

Good managers/leaders prioritize truth, integrity, justice. Those are principles that Pflugrad and O’Day displayed in spades by standing up for JJ, when knowing and understanding JJ’s character and innocence they openly supported him when he was faced with false rape accusations.

On the other hand bureaucrats and petty administrators prioritize political correctness over truth, integrity and justice. You are saying that Pflugrad and O’Day should have kept their mouths shut even though they knew JJ was falsely accused and innocent and was being railroaded by the politically correct crowd.

I have nothing but admiration and respect for Pflugrad and O’Day by speaking up and fighting for truth and justice for JJ. They both evidenced great character and integrity. Engstrom and the University did not.

I have nothing but contempt for the politically correct crowd, and those who advocate silence and timidity and hiding when faced with injustice.

My point isn't whether you support the player or not. The point is they didn't know the truth. In retrospect they were right, but don't tell me that they knew the "truth" at that point and time. They knew JJ's point of view, and they rushed to judgement. It is not about speaking your mind and fighting for justice.

Ask yourself Grizranger, had JJ been convicted how would it have looked? Wonder if he really was guilty of this offense? How could they have possibly known that he was wrongfully accused at that time? They hadn't investigated it, talked to witnesses, etc., etc.. Had he been convicted then would their blind support been that of great character and integrity? I think not, the "leaders" of the program would have supported a rapist. They were in no more of a position than you or I to know if he was guilty or not guilty. The jury decided and JJ was vindicated, then speak there mind. You must see the forest through the trees. It's big picture stuff, not some bravado rah rah BS. In the military there are 2 kinds of leaders, the kind of leader that runs a platoon of men thru the muck and into the fire and the kind of leader that tells them when and where to go after they know the situation. O'Day and Pflugrad acted quickly and emotionally without thinking like a lower level manager not an owner or high level manager, in retrospect as well, they were wrong in doing so and it cost them there jobs despite being correct in their blind support of JJ.

 

[UMGriz75]

GrizRanger: O'Day and Pflugrad acted quickly and emotionally without thinking like a lower level manager not an owner or high level manager, in retrospect as well, they were wrong in doing so and it cost them there jobs despite being correct in their blind support of JJ.

Nothing blind about it.

When you know people of high integrity, you take their word.

They took JJ's word.

Incidentally, they, not Engstrom, were also vindicated in doing so.

 

[Gametime]

GrizRanger: O'Day and Pflugrad acted quickly and emotionally without thinking like a lower level manager not an owner or high level manager, in retrospect as well, they were wrong in doing so and it cost them there jobs despite being correct in their blind support of JJ.

Nothing blind about it.

When you know people of high integrity, you take their word.

They took JJ's word.

Incidentally, they, not Engstrom, were also vindicated in doing so.

There are too many people to list that have had supposed "high integrity" that have later apologized for their lies and indiscretions. Fine take JJ at his word, who cares. How do you think the family of the alleged University student victim felt about their support? How do think the First Step nurses felt about their support?

One in a leadership position, doesn't get to guess or go on a straight gut feeling about someone until they know all the facts, not just one side. Have you ever run a company? Purchased a company? Spent Millions of dollars on a decision? I have, you investigate everything, you check every angle, talk to everyone, look at the books, etc., etc., etc. You don't just walk in and start or buy the company. What O'day and Pflugrad would be similar to me buying a company and asking the top salesman (QB ie JJ) what he thought about the company and then me commenting on what a great company it is and how I just bought it based on the salesman's word alone. A flat out bad decision.

 

[UMGriz75]

GrizRanger: O'Day and Pflugrad acted quickly and emotionally without thinking like a lower level manager not an owner or high level manager, in retrospect as well, they were wrong in doing so and it cost them there jobs despite being correct in their blind support of JJ.

Nothing blind about it.

When you know people of high integrity, you take their word.

They took JJ's word.

Incidentally, they, not Engstrom, were also vindicated in doing so.

There are too many people to list that have had supposed "high integrity" that have later apologized for their lies and indiscretions. Fine take JJ at his word, who cares. How do you think the family of the alleged University student victim felt about their support? How do think the First Step nurses felt about their support?

"Jane Doe's" own mother didn't believe her, if that means anything to you.

As far as investing millions, etc etc, and "who cares?" I am reminded of the following:

“A man I do not trust could not get money from me on all the bonds in Christendom,” Morgan once said. For Morgan, a solid reputation was the basis of all negotiations and relationships in the business world. “Money equals business which equals power, all of which come from character and trust,” he said. Like the strong mahogany cane that he had a penchant for walking with, Morgan stood firm in his conviction that belief and trust in the character of others was at the basis of all economic transactions, and more broadly, the force behind a stable and strong economy."

JJ's character spoke for itself to two good men of good character.

Royce Engstrom's did not, and we are in fact paying the economic price that you say is important in making these kinds of decisions.

 

[Gametime]

GrizRanger: O'Day and Pflugrad acted quickly and emotionally without thinking like a lower level manager not an owner or high level manager, in retrospect as well, they were wrong in doing so and it cost them there jobs despite being correct in their blind support of JJ.

Nothing blind about it.

When you know people of high integrity, you take their word.

They took JJ's word.

Incidentally, they, not Engstrom, were also vindicated in doing so.

There are too many people to list that have had supposed "high integrity" that have later apologized for their lies and indiscretions. Fine take JJ at his word, who cares. How do you think the family of the alleged University student victim felt about their support? How do think the First Step nurses felt about their support?

"Jane Doe's" own mother didn't believe her, if that means anything to you.

As far as investing millions, etc etc, and "who cares?" I am reminded of the following:

“A man I do not trust could not get money from me on all bonds in Christendom,” Morgan once said. For Morgan, a solid reputation was the basis of all negotiations and relationships in the business world. “Money equals business which equals power, all of which come from character and trust,” he said. Like the strong mahogany cane that he had a penchant for walking with, Morgan stood firm in his conviction that belief and trust in the character of others was at the basis of all economic transactions, and more broadly, the force behind a stable and strong economy."

JJ's character spoke for itself to two good men of good character.

Royce Engstrom's did not, and we are in fact paying the economic price that you say is important in making these kinds of decisions.

So if JJ or any other player was a "bad character" player with some sort of history of bad behavior and was charged in the same circumstance, would you expect the head coach and the AD to come out and throw him under the bus because they were speaking their mind??? No, you would expect them to shut their mouths under both circumstance. You can't have it both ways.

Its not about the millions, again see the big picture, it is about the nature and gravity of the decision. There is a different consequence to making a bad decision about what you buy for dinner at a restaurant and actually buying the restaurant.

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

GrizRanger: O'Day and Pflugrad acted quickly and emotionally without thinking like a lower level manager not an owner or high level manager, in retrospect as well, they were wrong in doing so and it cost them there jobs despite being correct in their blind support of JJ.

Nothing blind about it.

When you know people of high integrity, you take their word.

They took JJ's word.

Incidentally, they, not Engstrom, were also vindicated in doing so.

There are too many people to list that have had supposed "high integrity" that have later apologized for their lies and indiscretions. Fine take JJ at his word, who cares. How do you think the family of the alleged University student victim felt about their support? How do think the First Step nurses felt about their support?

One in a leadership position, doesn't get to guess or go on a straight gut feeling about someone until they know all the facts, not just one side. Have you ever run a company? Purchased a company? Spent Millions of dollars on a decision? I have, you investigate everything, you check every angle, talk to everyone, look at the books, etc., etc., etc. You don't just walk in and start or buy the company. What O'day and Pflugrad would be similar to me buying a company and asking the top salesman (QB ie JJ) what he thought about the company and then me commenting on what a great company it is and how I just bought it based on the salesman's word alone. A flat out bad decision.

Agree as I have before about Pflu commenting on jj,s status, it was a stupid thing to do...

Your bringing up the first step nurse is a strawman, it became quite clear in the trial that she at best pushed ethical boundaries and at worst suborned perjury or perhaps perjured herself.That was the point in the trial that anyone with a brain knew there was no case and that it was politically driven.

As far as your (to paraphrase) I'm a guy that is a big business guy that makes millions and I'm so smart that you people need to hear me, I can only :lol: Hey I have a seat on the NYSE in my dreams.

You do affirm a good point though, if someone like you that can hardly make a coherent arguement can become a millionaire the American Dream is alive and well. Thanks for that. :thumb:

 

[UMGriz75]

So if JJ or any other player was a "bad character" player with some sort of history of bad behavior and was charged in the same circumstance, would you expect the head coach and the AD to come out and throw him under the bus because they were speaking their mind??? No, you would expect them to shut their mouths under both circumstance. You can't have it both ways.

That proposes a "false choice."

You have to have it both ways. You support people of good character. You don't pretend that there is a moral equivalency in remaining silent between letting "the system run its course" and not prejudicing it, and when good people are overtly harmed, then argue that "good men" should remain silent.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

All Robin had to do to save his job was to say nothing. His character would have been preserved. He should have known better. And now he does.

 

[MTGriz87]

GrizRanger: O'Day and Pflugrad acted quickly and emotionally without thinking like a lower level manager not an owner or high level manager, in retrospect as well, they were wrong in doing so and it cost them there jobs despite being correct in their blind support of JJ.

Nothing blind about it.

When you know people of high integrity, you take their word.

They took JJ's word.

Incidentally, they, not Engstrom, were also vindicated in doing so.

There are too many people to list that have had supposed "high integrity" that have later apologized for their lies and indiscretions. Fine take JJ at his word, who cares. How do you think the family of the alleged University student victim felt about their support? How do think the First Step nurses felt about their support?

"Jane Doe's" own mother didn't believe her, if that means anything to you. ...

Where did you get that information? I don't remember ever hearing that...

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

So if JJ or any other player was a "bad character" player with some sort of history of bad behavior and was charged in the same circumstance, would you expect the head coach and the AD to come out and throw him under the bus because they were speaking their mind??? No, you would expect them to shut their mouths under both circumstance. You can't have it both ways.

That proposes a "false choice."

You have to have it both ways. You support people of good character. You don't pretend that there is a moral equivalency in remaining silent between letting "the system run its course" and not prejudicing it, and when good people are overtly harmed, and argue that "good men" should remain silent.

All this tool has is that Pflu made a bad call when he publicly backed jj and I agree with him, other than he's grasping real hard for some straws and it's not really working out.

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

Nothing blind about it.

When you know people of high integrity, you take their word.

They took JJ's word.

Incidentally, they, not Engstrom, were also vindicated in doing so.

There are too many people to list that have had supposed "high integrity" that have later apologized for their lies and indiscretions. Fine take JJ at his word, who cares. How do you think the family of the alleged University student victim felt about their support? How do think the First Step nurses felt about their support?

"Jane Doe's" own mother didn't believe her, if that means anything to you. ...

Where did you get that information? I don't remember ever hearing that...

Testimony to that effect came out in the trial early and along with the first step nurse actions torpedoed the prosecution from the start.

 

[IdaGriz01]

All Robin had to do to save his job was to say nothing. His character would have been preserved. He should have known better. And now he does.

Very famous quote -- often attributed to Irish political philosopher Edmund Burke, but probably a paraphrase:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

 

[argh!]

That proposes a "false choice."

You have to have it both ways. You support people of good character. You don't pretend that there is a moral equivalency in remaining silent between letting "the system run its course" and not prejudicing it, and when good people are overtly harmed, and argue that "good men" should remain silent.

good
gawd.

 

[Potomac Griz]

So if JJ or any other player was a "bad character" player with some sort of history of bad behavior and was charged in the same circumstance, would you expect the head coach and the AD to come out and throw him under the bus because they were speaking their mind??? No, you would expect them to shut their mouths under both circumstance. You can't have it both ways.

That proposes a "false choice."

You have to have it both ways. You support people of good character. You don't pretend that there is a moral equivalency in remaining silent between letting "the system run its course" and not prejudicing it, and when good people are overtly harmed, and argue that "good men" should remain silent.

All this tool has is that Pflu made a bad call when he publicly backed jj and I agree with him, other than he's grasping real hard for some straws and it's not really working out.

So to him Pflu making a comment about JJ is horrible and something that one should be fired for. Yet Engstrom wanting multiple Griz players booted off the team before being found guilty of anything and before the facts come out is perfectly acceptable.

Hm...which is worse, trying to throw multiple players futures under the bus to appear "tough on crime" in some frantic knee-jerk reaction before knowing the facts, or making a fairly minor (albeit ill-advised) comment about supporting a player?

 

[UMGriz75]

All Robin had to do to save his job was to say nothing. His character would have been preserved. He should have known better. And now he does.

No. He would have shown no character at all by remaining silent.

 

[Griznationalist]

Whatever happened to the no-whining rule? Time to stop chewing yesterday's breakfast.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

All Robin had to do to save his job was to say nothing. His character would have been preserved. He should have known better. And now he does.

No. He would have shown no character at all by remaining silent.

You are a very intelligent man with no common sense. The prisons and unemployment offices are full of people who stood on principle. I wanted Robin to keep his job.

 

[Gametime]

So if JJ or any other player was a "bad character" player with some sort of history of bad behavior and was charged in the same circumstance, would you expect the head coach and the AD to come out and throw him under the bus because they were speaking their mind??? No, you would expect them to shut their mouths under both circumstance. You can't have it both ways.

That proposes a "false choice."

You have to have it both ways. You support people of good character. You don't pretend that there is a moral equivalency in remaining silent between letting "the system run its course" and not prejudicing it, and when good people are overtly harmed, and argue that "good men" should remain silent.

If 2 players got into a fight on the team? And one of them was JJ and the other one had been in trouble before. Would you expect the Head Coach and the AD to publicly come out and support JJ over the other player without interviewing both players, other players, staff, witnesses, etc? No! I can continue to simplify this all night if you need me to.

And Mr. Greenjeans, I will take an order of fries with my burger while you throw your comments in from the sidelines.

 

[UMGriz75]

All Robin had to do to save his job was to say nothing.

Well, yes, it worked that way in Germany if that's our model, but it told me a great deal about the character of Robin Pflugrad that he chose to speak out on an issue of great importance to him: the integrity of Jordan Johnson.