Watering down of FCS

[UNDfan]

FBS isn't about establishing oneself at the FCS level, its about having the critical mass of fan support and most importantly, corporate support. Just based on Missoula's regional corporate support, Montana FBS football really can't work well. Is there even a Fortune 500 company nearby? The fan base is more or less tapped out, especially after a losing season and legal problems. Boise St has the critical mass of a regional economy and local corporate support to work really well, as does Nevada at Reno. Idaho and Moscow don't.

New FBS schools like UTSA, UCF, USF, Charlotte, and Old Dominion are going to work because the corporate world considers FCS lame and only would support FBS. Most of those schools barely bothered with FCS because it has no corporate interest locally. Corporations buy the suites, advertising, and expensive tickets needed to make a go at the FBS level. Huntington (WV) where Marshall is doesn't exactly have a big corporate presence, and that issue is a big part of why Marshall has fallen from its glory FBS days. More than just great coaching is needed.

On another thread, where the MSU Bobcats and the Bobcat Corporation (in North Dakota) are contrasted, the Great Harvest Bread was identified as Montana's best nationally known business logo. No offense to Great Harvest Bread, but its almost a nobody in the corporate world. That should be quite telling why Montana would have extreme difficulty with funding an FBS move.

 

[kemajic]

I was at that game because I live near Tropicana Field and a good friend of mine down here is a Marshall alum. I wore a Griz shirt to have some fun with the Marshall fans. I was stunned that I didn't get any ribbing over it. So I initiated some friendly banter. Again, I was shocked.....of the nearly 100 or so fans I talked to......only one even knew about the '95 and '96 "title games" (he used finger quotes when he said it) that Marshall played in. They laughed at the idea of moving down to play lower competition for higher accolades in the lower division? Who wouldn't?

I smell some bs here. I was at that 1996 game in Huntington and it was a big deal to the Marshal faithful. Maybe some of the current students don't appreciate their past success but I really doubt that their fan base just disregards those days with Randy Moss and Chad Pennington.

Everett is right about the watering down of the FCS. It has been a steady trickle since 78. That NC the cats won in 84 was big accomplishment as was BSU in 80 and the ISU win in 81. Hell truth be known the cats 76 dII championship had a better field of competition than either of our 95 and 01 chippers.

But their are still ~120 teams in the FCS with 63 scholarships and their will be up and coming programs to replace App State, Georgia Southern and anybody else who leaves. We belong in the FCS and their is no shame in competing there.

I was at both NC games in Huntington and talked to a lot of Marshall fans as we stayed two nights both times. They were burned big time by our '95 win and went for broke to reverse it in '96, bringing in Coach Pruett and his Florida QB Eric Kresser as well FSU refugee Moss. Pennington was redshirted in '96 and the Kresser to Moss combo was a mismatch with our DBs. Real ringers. They wanted revenge big time and got it; the win and restructuring positioned them well for their move up.

The status quo group likes to diss Marshall's FBS play; they also like to forget that Marshall dominated the MAC right out of the gate, winning the East Div. title each of their first six years and won the Conf. championship five of those six years. Easy to forget previous small college success after that. Then Pruett got the program into trouble. Expect Marshall back; they have a strong fan base.

 

[ilovethecats]

On another thread, where the MSU Bobcats and the Bobcat Corporation (in North Dakota) are contrasted, the Great Harvest Bread was identified as Montana's best nationally known business logo. No offense to Great Harvest Bread, but its almost a nobody in the corporate world. That should be quite telling why Montana would have extreme difficulty with funding an FBS move.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall take but I think you are putting too much thought into that map! I mean, even all of us living here said that seemed to be a stretch. look at Minnesota's. Pillsbury? really?! not target? or best buy? or 3M? or general mills?

i'm just saying, your opinion might be pretty close to correct. but if it is it isn't because some blogger determined that great harvest is our most popular brand. :lol:

 

[UNDfan]

On another thread, where the MSU Bobcats and the Bobcat Corporation (in North Dakota) are contrasted, the Great Harvest Bread was identified as Montana's best nationally known business logo. No offense to Great Harvest Bread, but its almost a nobody in the corporate world. That should be quite telling why Montana would have extreme difficulty with funding an FBS move.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall take but I think you are putting too much thought into that map! I mean, even all of us living here said that seemed to be a stretch. look at Minnesota's. Pillsbury? really?! not target? or best buy? or 3M? or general mills?

i'm just saying, your opinion might be pretty close to correct. but if it is it isn't because some blogger determined that great harvest is our most popular brand. :lol:

Thought the same thing about Pillsbury as Minnesota's brand - there are lot of better choices IMHO.

But what other significant corporations are based or were started in Montana? That was my point. Off hand, can only think of Montana Power and Anaconda, and think both were done for years ago. Even Montana-Dakota is based in North Dakota.

Just think FCS and FBS are stratifying layers based on corporate support, not real fan support. Troy only went FBS when it a huge video chain store back its move. Now that company is broke and Troy isn't that good. La-Monroe has CenturyLink in Monroe. Doubt it could go on in FBS without it. Texas St is right between San Antonio and Austin: in the corporate world around it, it's irrelevant without going FBS.

 

[EverettGriz]

Corporate involvement is way overblown on this site anyway. First, the amount of money coming from corporations directly to athletic programs is limited. The money comes from those made rich from the company, and Montana has one of the best in the nation there. Second, corporations are not state-specific. Sure, Phil Knight gives to Oregon, but only because he's an Oregon grad. Nike also advertises at nearly every other college campus in the country. Fortune 500 companies advertise wherever they can get a bang for their buck. And plenty of out-of-state corporations already support Griz athletics.

The "there's no corporations, there" argument is simply another verse in another hymn in the same ol' "we're Montana, we're too small to be good" hymnal. Man, that's tiresome.

 

[kemajic]

Corporate involvement is way overblown on this site anyway. First, the amount of money coming from corporations directly to athletic programs is limited. The money comes from those made rich from the company, and Montana has one of the best in the nation there. Second, corporations are not state-specific. Sure, Phil Knight gives to Oregon, but only because he's an Oregon grad. Nike also advertises at nearly every other college campus in the country. Fortune 500 companies advertise wherever they can get a bang for their buck. And plenty of out-of-state corporations already support Griz athletics.

The "there's no corporations, there" argument is simply another verse in another hymn in the same ol' "we're Montana, we're too small to be good" hymnal. Man, that's tiresome.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

 

[CV Griz Fan]

This whole FBS/FCS argument for UM is really about a fan's tolerance for playing against lesser competition IMO. This fact applies to both sides of the debate. Some fans enjoy winning games and could care less about dominating weak competition. A win is a win so to speak. Some fans believe athletic completion is about playing against the best teams available to test a team's ability. If you lose, you lose. So be it. What I find interesting about this argument is that the "win is a win" crowd, that don't care about dominating the likes of N. Colorado, Idaho State, Weber State et al get all defensive when they are "pressed" about a UM move to DII football. It's like they have their "standards" for smaller, slower and less athletic competitors. That view point is strange to me. DII has as a playoff and they have a National Champion.If the FCS "imploded" next year, where would most Griz fans want their team to land, DII or FBS?

 

[grizfan95]

This whole FBS/FCS argument for UM is really about a fan's tolerance for playing against lesser competition IMO. This fact applies to both sides of the debate. Some fans enjoy winning games and could care less about dominating weak competition. A win is a win so to speak. Some fans believe athletic completion is about playing against the best teams available to test a team's ability. If you lose, you lose. So be it. What I find interesting about this argument is that the "win is a win" crowd, that don't care about dominating the likes of N. Colorado, Idaho State, Weber State et al get all defensive when they are "pressed" about a UM move to DII football. It's like they have their "standards" for smaller, slower and less athletic competitors. That view point is strange to me. DII has as a playoff and they have a National Champion.If the FCS "imploded" next year, where would most Griz fans want their team to land, DII or FBS?

The fans who oppose the Griz moving up, just to move up, are of the belief that the Griz are in their perfect little niche. I doubt you'll find a fan that thinks the Griz should move down to DII simply to rack up W's.

 

[Copper Griz]

Corporate involvement is way overblown on this site anyway. First, the amount of money coming from corporations directly to athletic programs is limited. The money comes from those made rich from the company, and Montana has one of the best in the nation there. Second, corporations are not state-specific. Sure, Phil Knight gives to Oregon, but only because he's an Oregon grad. Nike also advertises at nearly every other college campus in the country. Fortune 500 companies advertise wherever they can get a bang for their buck. And plenty of out-of-state corporations already support Griz athletics.

The "there's no corporations, there" argument is simply another verse in another hymn in the same ol' "we're Montana, we're too small to be good" hymnal. Man, that's tiresome.

I don't have a problem with your corporate involvement statements Everett. I don't think corporate dollars are the problem now or will be in the future. I do think geography and population are problems - big problems. Wyoming is a classic example (laughable in their conference - don't even point to one year of success!). Boise and Marshall had the population to move up, Idaho did not. I just don't see how Montana can pull it off successfully. Many on this board keep spewing bull crap about D2 and moving down. A lame argument that weakens their position. Deal in reality. From a fan base and recruiting perspective (ultimately impacting the economics) it could be suicide to move up. If the FCS continues to morph into something that does not suit the Griz and Cants needs - then it will be time to move up. Until then it just is not going to happen. P.S. I mentioned the Cants because the BOR is going to make it a stipulation that the Griz take their red headed step brother with them - if and when they move up.

 

[Grizzoola]

P.S. I mentioned the Cants because the BOR is going to make it a stipulation that the Griz take their red headed step brother with them - if and when they move up.

Yes, we Griz fans forget that the BOR, et al., look at Griz football from an entirely different perspective than ours.

 

[get'em_griz]

So if we beat Wyoming next year, and there's a good chance we can, what will people start saying then? Will people downplay the win and say that it just proves that Wyoming shouldn't be in the FBS?

You can say all you want about teams like Wyoming not having the population or the success to play in FBS, but we have a hell of a lot more in common with them than we do with the majority of this conference and a chunk of the FCS. These teams actually have fan support unlike the teams we currently play.

 

[Grizbeer]

But their are still ~120 teams in the FCS with 63 scholarships and their will be up and coming programs to replace App State, Georgia Southern and anybody else who leaves. We belong in the FCS and their is no shame in competing there.

Unfortunately approximately 1/3 of the FCS teams do not offer 63 scholarships, and actually offer fewer scholarships (or none at all) than DII teams, and are only FCS so their basketball teams can play D-I. It was a sham when the NCAA required schools to move all of their programs to D-I if they wanted to play D-I basketball, but didn't require any minimum standards to compete at that level. It is why FCS will never have any kind of brand or respect when what are essentially D-II and D-III football programs are included, especially now with non-scholarship leagues getting automatic entry into the playoffs.

 

[grizfan95]

So if we beat Wyoming next year, and there's a good chance we can, what will people start saying then? Will people downplay the win and say that it just proves that Wyoming shouldn't be in the FBS?

You can say all you want about teams like Wyoming not having the population or the success to play in FBS, but we have a hell of a lot more in common with them than we do with the majority of this conference and a chunk of the FCS. These teams actually have fan support unlike the teams we currently play.

Did you ever consider the fact that maybe we have the fan support like we do because we were the winningest team from 2000-2009 in all of college football? Not counting the growing fan support from 1993-1999, mostly due to the early playoff runs and then national championship in '95.

Hate to break it to you, but the Griz fanbase got large because of winning. It is difficult to say what the general Griz fan, i.e. one not on eGriz, will do if they moved up and became somewhat irrelevant.

There's also much more to moving up than simple fan support. Increased funding for renovation of facilities, scholarships, etc...

 

[PlayerRep]

So if we beat Wyoming next year, and there's a good chance we can, what will people start saying then? Will people downplay the win and say that it just proves that Wyoming shouldn't be in the FBS?

You can say all you want about teams like Wyoming not having the population or the success to play in FBS, but we have a hell of a lot more in common with them than we do with the majority of this conference and a chunk of the FCS. These teams actually have fan support unlike the teams we currently play.

Did you ever consider the fact that maybe we have the fan support like we do because we were the winningest team from 2000-2009 in all of college football? Not counting the growing fan support from 1993-1999, mostly due to the early playoff runs and then national championship in '95.

Hate to break it to you, but the Griz fanbase got large because of winning. It is difficult to say what the general Griz fan, i.e. one not on eGriz, will do if they moved up and became somewhat irrelevant.

There's also much more to moving up than simple fan support. Increased funding for renovation of facilities, scholarships, etc...

Good post. My sentiments too.

Winning and playoffs have had a huge impact on UM's fan base. My view is that a large chunk of that fan base would become less interested and drift away if the winning percentage decreased or decreased significantly. This would negatively impact revenue and could create a downward spiral to some extent.

Money/funding is a very important factor for success. Former AD Hogan used to say that the primary reason for Boise St's success and Idaho's lack of success was funding. Despite what Everett said, corporate and business funding for the costs of moving up and new facilities would be very important. The Missoula area and Montana don't have many big companies interested in large donations for athletics, nor does UM have alot of big hitter alums who have big checkbooks available for athletics. The two Montana schools divide and dilute the available corporate and individual donors. While I don't know, Wyoming probably has money from resource companies and people.

 

[PlayerRep]

So if we beat Wyoming next year, and there's a good chance we can, what will people start saying then? Will people downplay the win and say that it just proves that Wyoming shouldn't be in the FBS?

You can say all you want about teams like Wyoming not having the population or the success to play in FBS, but we have a hell of a lot more in common with them than we do with the majority of this conference and a chunk of the FCS. These teams actually have fan support unlike the teams we currently play.

I hope UM beats Wyoming. However, there's a big difference between beating an FBS team on occasion, and playing and winning in an FBS conference. Boise St's great winning record is influenced by a similar phenomena. They can beat the biggest of the big boys, on occasion, because they gear up for the occasional huge game. They couldn't compete in the SEC. Don't have enough great players and depth. This is not an argument for or against moving up.

 

[getgrizzy]

does anyone know why we dropped from the skyline to the big sky? that was a drop from the "university" level to the "college" level, i think. basically a drop from d1 to d2 before the d1aa came into existence. that may be where the answer lies.

 

[Herd]

You are dating a beautiful women currently. You are proposing an upgrade to a Victoria Secret super model. Can you afford her and the high maintenance BS that goes with her

I like this analogy a lot, and it really highlights the purpose of me starting this thread. Believe it or not, this wasn't designed to be a Montana should move up thread (although it was almost certainly going to head in that direction).

The point of my original post -- a point NO ONE has countered -- is that the woman Montana is dating perhaps was beautiful at one time, and is still rather attractive. But the wrinkles are setting in, the weight's on the increase, and frankly the sex isn't anywhere near what it used to be. THAT is the point of the thread. Anyone who still considers the FCS a hottie is fooling themselves.

Exactly . . . "You are dating a woman who you love dearly but aint what she used to be after some years and 25 lbs. The MWC would be a younger, sexier version and it may cost a little more, but I don't think you are out-kicking your coverage".

Victoria's Secret in the MWC? I don't think so.

 

[get'em_griz]

You are dating a beautiful women currently. You are proposing an upgrade to a Victoria Secret super model. Can you afford her and the high maintenance BS that goes with her

I like this analogy a lot, and it really highlights the purpose of me starting this thread. Believe it or not, this wasn't designed to be a Montana should move up thread (although it was almost certainly going to head in that direction).

The point of my original post -- a point NO ONE has countered -- is that the woman Montana is dating perhaps was beautiful at one time, and is still rather attractive. But the wrinkles are setting in, the weight's on the increase, and frankly the sex isn't anywhere near what it used to be. THAT is the point of the thread. Anyone who still considers the FCS a hottie is fooling themselves.

Exactly . . . "You are dating a woman who you love dearly but aint what she used to be after some years and 25 lbs. The MWC would be a younger, sexier version and it may cost a little more, but I don't think you are out-kicking your coverage".

Victoria's Secret in the MWC? I don't think so.

The MWC would be a great place for us to get to. The million dollar question is how do we get there?

 

[Grizbeer]

does anyone know why we dropped from the skyline to the big sky? that was a drop from the "university" level to the "college" level, i think. basically a drop from d1 to d2 before the d1aa came into existence. that may be where the answer lies.

the faculty and administration at the University of Montana decided to de-emphasize athletics, and especially football, at UM in the late 40's, and again in the '50. When UM and MSU were negotiating to create a new conference a sticking point was UM had to agree to increase scholarship aid, while MSU had to agree to decrease scholarship aid to bring them to equal footing.

 

[PlayerRep]

But their are still ~120 teams in the FCS with 63 scholarships and their will be up and coming programs to replace App State, Georgia Southern and anybody else who leaves. We belong in the FCS and their is no shame in competing there.

Unfortunately approximately 1/3 of the FCS teams do not offer 63 scholarships, and actually offer fewer scholarships (or none at all) than DII teams, and are only FCS so their basketball teams can play D-I. It was a sham when the NCAA required schools to move all of their programs to D-I if they wanted to play D-I basketball, but didn't require any minimum standards to compete at that level. It is why FCS will never have any kind of brand or respect when what are essentially D-II and D-III football programs are included, especially now with non-scholarship leagues getting automatic entry into the playoffs.

Just out of curiosity, why are some people so hung up about having respect for FCS, or care so much about what other people think of FCS? I've never understood why that was so important to some people. I know that more interest would probably help a bit with tv.

I actually like FCS better than today's FBS. Besides the terrific playoff system, it's more amateur (in a good sense) and more like what I think college athletics should be. FBS is more professional, and the money and tv now dominate, to the detriment of athletics and universities. Conference loyalties and some rivalries have largely gone out the window. Athletics are overshadowing the rest of the university, and leading to problems and what I view as corruption. This is all getting worse. I follow FCS closely. I don't follow FBS closely. I look every Sunday morning at how the FCS top 25 did. I rarely look at the FBS polls.

I've always liked this quote, from a good SI article on Yale's qb Brian Dowling, class of '69, teammate of Calvin Hill, character in the Doonesbury comic strip, and the "last All-America":

"In the old days, there was this curious contradiction, that the more someone was celebrated as an All-America, the less he belonged to the whole U.S.A. He was Yale's All-America or Notre Dame's All-America or Southern Cal's All-America. His college community was so proud of him; he belonged to them; he was All-Ours. Today a college really doesn't possess its good players. They belong to the television networks and the scouting combines. They're generic stars, All-Overs."

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