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Traitor Trump
- Thread starter Fat Bruno
- Start date
Anyone want to make predictions on what will happen if Trump keeps claiming executive privilege and prohibits associates from testifying to congress and defying congressional subpoenas? What will happen if he simply ignores federal court orders and decisions? I think Andrew Jackson said some thing to the effect “Chief Justice John Marshal can decide the law now let him try and enforce it”. Remember Trump hung His picture in the Oval Office. I think we are in for a constitutional crisis..should be interesting. :thumb:
Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-NY called the latest ploy of the minority party a "constitutional crisis" when his 'kommittee' voted to hold Attorney General Barr in contempt of congress. I would have expected more from you, Dutch, than lip syncing with that fat left wing f*ck. Birds of a feather...
Here is Nadler six years, ten months, and ten days ago in a boastful Tweet:
"Just joined the #walkout of the House chamber to protest the shameful politically-motivated GOP vote holding AG Holder in contempt." -- June 28, 2012 @ 2:06pm regarding the Fast and Furious gun running operation by Obama's DOJ.
My, how times have changed. This is political theater and has been going on long before Trump won the election. 'Constitutional crisis' my ass.
"Just joined the #walkout of the House chamber to protest the shameful politically-motivated GOP vote holding AG Holder in contempt." -- June 28, 2012 @ 2:06pm regarding the Fast and Furious gun running operation by Obama's DOJ.
My, how times have changed. This is political theater and has been going on long before Trump won the election. 'Constitutional crisis' my ass.
Yukon
Well-known member
Nothing will happen. He did nothing wrong. Also, remember that it would be illegal to release all redacted info. Stay off the MSM 4am talking points call about the faux "constitutional crises".Dutch Lane said:
Oh, by the way:
Barack Obama
The Obama administration asserted executive privilege in June 2012 in response to a House investigation of Operation Fast and Furious, a controversial “gunwalking” operation in which the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives allowed the running of guns in hopes that they could be tracked to Mexican drug cartel figures.
Fellas, remember Holder was forced to appear in front of a federal district court judge in dc to answer to the house contempt motion and the judge did not find him in contempt of court which is what the republicans controlled house were pushing. The court also found that the house contempt motion was totally unnecessary because Holder had offered to allow chairman Issa to review the requested documents and Issa refused because he wanted to release the materiel to the public at that time. The judge also ordered the Dept. of justice to release the material which they finally did.Yukon said:
So what will happen in this case and a federal judge orders Barr and others to honor congressional subpoenas and they still refuse? Will nothing happen because only the DOJ can empanel a grand jury to indict them and Barr controls the DOJ. So the faux crisis is what can congress and the courts do if the executive refuses to enforce civil and criminal law against itself? I understand that is probably not a problem for you guys. But what if Nixon has done the same thing or if Clinton had stone walled on his impeachment like Trump has done. Would you guys have been ok with that? I would not be okay with it because I still believe that no one is above the law except for dictators and Kings. You perspective please. Thanks for playing fellas.. :thumb:
Evidently, the latest talking points, after the 'constitutional crisis' debacle, haven't been issued yet, Dutch, hence your silence. On an even more humorous note, I see the left is being tutored on how to respond during their appearances on Fox News Channel. That ought to put into perspective how little an audience that the left wing media cabal has in this country.
As I understand the CURRENT situation, the only items redacted are grand jury testimony, which can't be opened to public scrutiny by law. Last I had heard, twelve members of congress, all Republicans, have read the Mueller report. That's 2.2% of the Senate and House's 535 members. So, this democrat horseshit is just the same obstruction, lies, resistance, or whatever, which has been going on months before election day 2016 and is designed to continue through election day 2020. There is no search for the truth, just to continue obstruction.
This isn't about Nixon, or Clinton, or Obama. The latest Barr moves are an attempt to smear him and deflect Barr's NEW investigation into the false premise of the investigations into Trump and his administration. The investigators are now being investigated. The scalpel has been turned around and is now cutting into the democrats(progressives, socialist, communist, or whatever they choose to call themselves these days), deep state, and left wing media. The whole investigation, which Mueller finished, was based on lies Cliton bought and paid for(actually oppositional research) which was sworn to as corroborated fact by Comey and his collaborators(part of the deep state). This is where you can contribute to the discussion, Dutch. Here's your topic: Fruit of the Poisonous Tree Doctrine. I will thank you in advance 'for playing.'
As I understand the CURRENT situation, the only items redacted are grand jury testimony, which can't be opened to public scrutiny by law. Last I had heard, twelve members of congress, all Republicans, have read the Mueller report. That's 2.2% of the Senate and House's 535 members. So, this democrat horseshit is just the same obstruction, lies, resistance, or whatever, which has been going on months before election day 2016 and is designed to continue through election day 2020. There is no search for the truth, just to continue obstruction.
This isn't about Nixon, or Clinton, or Obama. The latest Barr moves are an attempt to smear him and deflect Barr's NEW investigation into the false premise of the investigations into Trump and his administration. The investigators are now being investigated. The scalpel has been turned around and is now cutting into the democrats(progressives, socialist, communist, or whatever they choose to call themselves these days), deep state, and left wing media. The whole investigation, which Mueller finished, was based on lies Cliton bought and paid for(actually oppositional research) which was sworn to as corroborated fact by Comey and his collaborators(part of the deep state). This is where you can contribute to the discussion, Dutch. Here's your topic: Fruit of the Poisonous Tree Doctrine. I will thank you in advance 'for playing.'
Whose tree and who got poisoned? Carter page and pappadoplolis? My understanding is the if specific facts sworn to in the warrant are untrue or unverified then those facts would be excised from the warrant application and reviewed with the redactions to determine if probable cause is still established by the remaining allegations. I read the applications they are 2 and 3 hundred pages long and very in-depth, footnoted, appendix they are a tome and the Steele dossier was a small part of the whole application. I think you lose on the poison apple doctrine. Why didn’t Flynn or Manafort or Cohen challenge the fisa warrant and the dossier? Riddle me that one. They would be the people who would certainly file pre trial motions trying suppress the search warrant. Why didn’t any of them do that? I will tell you why because it’s just a talking point and their attorneys know that and they know that there is no chance in hell that they could convince even the right leaning Supreme Court to rule in their favor.
Tourist the top two or three FBI and Doj get fired and thrown under the bus by trump and they have all been republicans Comey, McCabe, Rosenstein ect., the problem is there are thousands of other people who work at the agencies on the mueller investigation and they all know it was done by the book, why doesn’t fox interview them. Talking points don’t stand up to scrutiny. Your move :thumb:
Tourist the top two or three FBI and Doj get fired and thrown under the bus by trump and they have all been republicans Comey, McCabe, Rosenstein ect., the problem is there are thousands of other people who work at the agencies on the mueller investigation and they all know it was done by the book, why doesn’t fox interview them. Talking points don’t stand up to scrutiny. Your move :thumb:
Glad you had the time and inclination to read hundreds of pages of that material. But that is what you do, so I can't fault you for it.
I am not defending anyone. The names you mention have their own problems, and why their legal reps did or didn't do something is unknown, at least to me. The whole FISA mess needs the light of day, and was apparently based on a lie. That's why I gave you the floor to pontificate on the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree Doctrine, not only for my enlightenment, but for those on eGriz who haven't heard of it.
Those fired are RINO republicans(lower case 'r'), and Never Trumpers, deep state garbage, and part of the reason this country is such a mess. I believe this is why Trump got elected. People are fed up with the Washington ruling class. Why do you think that 'Drain the Swamp' got such enthusiastic support from Trump voters? I agree that 'talking points don't stand up to scrutiny', so quit already. With your education, you should be a pro-Trumper. You sound like those ill educated 'democratic socialists.' Maybe its age. Old saying: 'If you are not a liberal at 25, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative by the age of 35, you have no brain.' I'll assume its the former.
I am not defending anyone. The names you mention have their own problems, and why their legal reps did or didn't do something is unknown, at least to me. The whole FISA mess needs the light of day, and was apparently based on a lie. That's why I gave you the floor to pontificate on the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree Doctrine, not only for my enlightenment, but for those on eGriz who haven't heard of it.
Those fired are RINO republicans(lower case 'r'), and Never Trumpers, deep state garbage, and part of the reason this country is such a mess. I believe this is why Trump got elected. People are fed up with the Washington ruling class. Why do you think that 'Drain the Swamp' got such enthusiastic support from Trump voters? I agree that 'talking points don't stand up to scrutiny', so quit already. With your education, you should be a pro-Trumper. You sound like those ill educated 'democratic socialists.' Maybe its age. Old saying: 'If you are not a liberal at 25, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative by the age of 35, you have no brain.' I'll assume its the former.
Tourist what specific lie or lies were the fisa warrants apparently based upon? The steele dossier is the talking point that gets thrown out there the most, but what is the deep state “lie” that this is all based upon? Thanks for playing :thumb:
FISA warrant based on Steele's admittedly fraudulent 'dossier.' Comey vouched for the truth of the 'dossier.' Sen. Graham is trying to get to the bottom of that now.
The 'deep state' is not one person or group, but an underlying bureaucracy. Many faces and names, with a vested interest in maintaining their positions of power and influence. Various levels of subversion, lies, etc. $35M and 22 months spent on a witch hunt, which turned up nothing. The least that should be done is turn the tables on the investigators/inquisitors, and lead by a equally partisan group from the pro-Trump camp. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Asking me for my legal opinion about evidence is ridiculous. YOU are the lawyer, right? You dig and research your own questions.
The 'deep state' is not one person or group, but an underlying bureaucracy. Many faces and names, with a vested interest in maintaining their positions of power and influence. Various levels of subversion, lies, etc. $35M and 22 months spent on a witch hunt, which turned up nothing. The least that should be done is turn the tables on the investigators/inquisitors, and lead by a equally partisan group from the pro-Trump camp. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Asking me for my legal opinion about evidence is ridiculous. YOU are the lawyer, right? You dig and research your own questions.
I’m just trying to understand the pro-trump side of things. Like I said earlier the Steele dossier was a small part of the entire application document and if it was found not to have been verified or accurate by the fisa court it would excise that part out and review the four corners of the application to determine if it still establishes probable cause. Why hasn’t the fisa court called the Steele dossier into question if it is so wrong? The fact that none of the fellas who were convicted even bothered to challenge the constitutionality of the warrant application leaves me to think there is no defect.
And finally trump entirely controls the executive branch including the DOJ and FBI why doesn’t he simply declassify the fisa warrant application? Because then it would finally be examined by the public and it would be shown to have not relied much on the Steele dossier which would result in silencing the Steele dossier talking point. The talking point is more effective if we don’t know the truth behind the fisa warrant application. Again what fact or facts does the Steele dossier purport to establish that are lies? The pee tape? What please help me understand what we are talking about. Thanks :thumb:
And finally trump entirely controls the executive branch including the DOJ and FBI why doesn’t he simply declassify the fisa warrant application? Because then it would finally be examined by the public and it would be shown to have not relied much on the Steele dossier which would result in silencing the Steele dossier talking point. The talking point is more effective if we don’t know the truth behind the fisa warrant application. Again what fact or facts does the Steele dossier purport to establish that are lies? The pee tape? What please help me understand what we are talking about. Thanks :thumb:
Dutch Lane said:
The Steele Dossier was the biggest part of the FISA warrant. The very first Russian allegation towards page was from the Steele Dossier.
The FISA court relied on the assurances from the FBI and signers of the application that the Steele Dossier was reliable. Apparently, there was virtually no basis for saying the Steele Dossier was correct or reliable. The application said Steele had been reliable in the past. The FISA court doesn't independently verify an application from the FBI.
Besides the Steele Dossier, the FISA warrant cited the existence of a newspaper report describing similar things. However, the basis of the newspaper article was information from Steele, who lied to the FBI initially and said he wasn't leaking.
The application didn't say that the Steele Dossier was financed by the Clinton campaign and DNC, and that it was her/their opposition research. Don't you think that would have been a relevant fact.
The application for the FISA warrant has been challenged multiple times.
The Fisa application has been released. Much of what it said isn't accurate. Note that Page, the person who was the subject of the warrant, was not charged by Mueller or anyone else.
You are way behind what has gone on.
This was in the last few days.
"James Baker, who served as the FBI’s general counsel during the Clinton email and Trump-Russia probes, acknowledged Friday that some of the claims in the Steele dossier appeared to be inaccurate.
Baker said that some of dossier author Christopher Steele’s allegations appear to have “washed out.”
...
Former FBI general counsel James Baker acknowledged Friday that parts of the Steele dossier have “washed out,” but still defended the bureau’s use of the controversial document as part of the Trump-Russia investigation.
Baker also appeared, while speaking at an event the Brookings Institution hosted, to concede that the FBI’s premise behind opening the probe did not pan out.
...
The FBI relied heavily on information from Christopher Steele, a former British spy who was investigating President Donald Trump on behalf of the Democratic National Committee and Clinton campaign. Republicans have criticized the FBI for relying on Steele’s document without having first verified its allegations.
Wittes asked Baker about specific claims in the dossier that have been all but debunked by the special counsel’s Russia report.
“The Prague meeting seems not to have happened,” noted Wittes, referring to Steele’s claim that former Trump attorney Michael Cohen visited the European city in August 2016 to meet with Russians and pay off hackers. The special counsel said in its 448-page report that Cohen did not visit Prague."
https://dailycaller.com/2018/07/21/doj-release-carter-page-fisa/
"James Baker, who served as the FBI’s general counsel during the Clinton email and Trump-Russia probes, acknowledged Friday that some of the claims in the Steele dossier appeared to be inaccurate.
Baker said that some of dossier author Christopher Steele’s allegations appear to have “washed out.”
...
Former FBI general counsel James Baker acknowledged Friday that parts of the Steele dossier have “washed out,” but still defended the bureau’s use of the controversial document as part of the Trump-Russia investigation.
Baker also appeared, while speaking at an event the Brookings Institution hosted, to concede that the FBI’s premise behind opening the probe did not pan out.
...
The FBI relied heavily on information from Christopher Steele, a former British spy who was investigating President Donald Trump on behalf of the Democratic National Committee and Clinton campaign. Republicans have criticized the FBI for relying on Steele’s document without having first verified its allegations.
Wittes asked Baker about specific claims in the dossier that have been all but debunked by the special counsel’s Russia report.
“The Prague meeting seems not to have happened,” noted Wittes, referring to Steele’s claim that former Trump attorney Michael Cohen visited the European city in August 2016 to meet with Russians and pay off hackers. The special counsel said in its 448-page report that Cohen did not visit Prague."
https://dailycaller.com/2018/07/21/doj-release-carter-page-fisa/
Um, I do know it has been released because I actually read all of the fisa application materials that were un-redacted. I think they totaled something over 400 pages, but almost half the pages were redacted or blacked out. What I meant to say is why doesn’t trump declassify the entire application with the redacted parts? Remember the Steele dossier was like 38 pages of raw intelligence so yeah I still think the Steele dossier was a small part of the entire applications. But so what we knew then and now know that the Russians were interfering in the election? Do you not agree?PlayerRep said:
So what Page wasn’t indicted, he has been cavorting with Russian agents and traveling back in forth to Russia going back to 2013 and then he latches on to Trumps campaign, and we know the Russians interfered in the 2016 election didn’t they? So the FBI shouldn’t have been spying on Page? Of course they should have. This investigation was about Russia interference and their efforts to infiltrate the trump campaign. Why didn’t anybody in Trump world report the over 90 contacts with the Russians to the FBI even after they and he had been given a national security briefing by the FBI about Russian infiltration? Anyone think maybe thats why it morphed into an investigation into trump conspiring with the Russians because Trump was aware the Russians were helping him so why tell anybody about it especially the FBI?
Okay, got it on the application. Trump wanted to release all of it, but got serious pushback from the FBI/Intel because some/much of it might reveal too much, like intel sources and methods.
Here's a good recent article on the puzzle behind how/why the government sought the Visa warrant and what it was based on. The inspector general and Barr are now investigating all of this.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/gop-investigators-say-classified-docs-will-expose-misuse-of-steele-dossier
From what I've read, there is another nothing of importance or substance in the Fisa application, in terms of reasons to seek the warrant, other than what was in the Steele Dossier. And, it looks like, at that time, virtually none of the Steele Dossier was verified independently by the FBI/intel. They just relied on Steele. From what I've read, that is a violation of rules/regs, and maybe the law.
"One of those FBI officials, then-deputy director Andrew McCabe, told the House Intelligence Committee last December that a warrant for surveillance of Trump campaign aide Carter Page would not have been sought without the information from the spy, Christopher Steele." McCabe was the deputy director of the FBI, and along with Comey, Rosenstein, and Yates, signed the Fisa application.
Almost all of the many contacts of Trumpees with Russia were minor, casual and normal. Talking to the Russian ambassador to Russia. Running into people at a conference, and saying hi. Business contacts who were made many years ago.
It's becoming fairly clear that the bidding went something like this.
Clinton campaign and DNC, via law firm Perkins Coie, hire Fusion to do opposition research on Trump. I think this was spring of 2016. Fusion hires former UK spy Steele, who once covered Russia but hasn't been in Russia for 15 or more years. Fusion and Steele are paid many millions of dollars. Steele does what became know as the Dossier. He contacts unnamed Russian people with supposed contacts with Kremlin. I read that he was paying his sources. One author said that when the sources realized they could be paid for BS and tantalizing things, they kept providing more to get paid more.
Steele has existing contacts with various people in the US government, including FBI, State and otherwise. He hates Trump. He, with encouragement from Fusion and others, and with the help of others, starts pending the Dossier claims with various US people, as he provides it to the FBI. There was an organization whose job it was to get the dossier's claim out in the US.
Then, the FBI starts to do the Fisa application against Page. Previously, the FBI and intel also started to "spy" on low level Trumpees, like Popadopoulus. Australian ambassador to UK reports to US that Pop, while drunk, said Russians have negative info on Hillary. Not emails, just negative info. FBI/intel sends "spys" to casually ask him, including the apparently hot blonde who puts the moves on him. Nothing is learned.
It has now been reported that Pop didn't even pass along the supposed knowledge of Russia having something negative on Clinton, to anyone in the Trump campaign. This is verified in the Mueller report.
While it looks pretty clear that the FBI didn't follow rules, and used an unverified dossier to get warrant on Page, some other speculate that the dossier was a Russian disinformation campaign, which Steele, Clinton/DNC and FBI and other "bought".
Note that I am not a Trumpee. I voted for Clinton.
Here's a good recent article on the puzzle behind how/why the government sought the Visa warrant and what it was based on. The inspector general and Barr are now investigating all of this.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/gop-investigators-say-classified-docs-will-expose-misuse-of-steele-dossier
From what I've read, there is another nothing of importance or substance in the Fisa application, in terms of reasons to seek the warrant, other than what was in the Steele Dossier. And, it looks like, at that time, virtually none of the Steele Dossier was verified independently by the FBI/intel. They just relied on Steele. From what I've read, that is a violation of rules/regs, and maybe the law.
"One of those FBI officials, then-deputy director Andrew McCabe, told the House Intelligence Committee last December that a warrant for surveillance of Trump campaign aide Carter Page would not have been sought without the information from the spy, Christopher Steele." McCabe was the deputy director of the FBI, and along with Comey, Rosenstein, and Yates, signed the Fisa application.
Almost all of the many contacts of Trumpees with Russia were minor, casual and normal. Talking to the Russian ambassador to Russia. Running into people at a conference, and saying hi. Business contacts who were made many years ago.
It's becoming fairly clear that the bidding went something like this.
Clinton campaign and DNC, via law firm Perkins Coie, hire Fusion to do opposition research on Trump. I think this was spring of 2016. Fusion hires former UK spy Steele, who once covered Russia but hasn't been in Russia for 15 or more years. Fusion and Steele are paid many millions of dollars. Steele does what became know as the Dossier. He contacts unnamed Russian people with supposed contacts with Kremlin. I read that he was paying his sources. One author said that when the sources realized they could be paid for BS and tantalizing things, they kept providing more to get paid more.
Steele has existing contacts with various people in the US government, including FBI, State and otherwise. He hates Trump. He, with encouragement from Fusion and others, and with the help of others, starts pending the Dossier claims with various US people, as he provides it to the FBI. There was an organization whose job it was to get the dossier's claim out in the US.
Then, the FBI starts to do the Fisa application against Page. Previously, the FBI and intel also started to "spy" on low level Trumpees, like Popadopoulus. Australian ambassador to UK reports to US that Pop, while drunk, said Russians have negative info on Hillary. Not emails, just negative info. FBI/intel sends "spys" to casually ask him, including the apparently hot blonde who puts the moves on him. Nothing is learned.
It has now been reported that Pop didn't even pass along the supposed knowledge of Russia having something negative on Clinton, to anyone in the Trump campaign. This is verified in the Mueller report.
While it looks pretty clear that the FBI didn't follow rules, and used an unverified dossier to get warrant on Page, some other speculate that the dossier was a Russian disinformation campaign, which Steele, Clinton/DNC and FBI and other "bought".
Note that I am not a Trumpee. I voted for Clinton.
Dutch: "I’m just trying to understand the pro-trump side of things." :lol: :lol: :lol: :bs:
Ever count the number of times you spell Trump with a lower case 't'? I have. Same goes for anyone else you mention for whom you have obvious dislike. If you show no respect, you deserve none. You, and your ilk, slam me and anyone supporting Trump or his policies as a tool of Fox News. But now, you are just trying to understand. Horseshit.
You don't have come to the Political BS Forum of eGriz to look for the truth. Try the obvious. If you've got the time to read 448 pages of the Mueller report, and 400 pages of FISA application materials, you have time to turn on the TV and watch Fox News Channel, to turn on a radio and listen to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Michael Savage. Within a week or two, you will be up to speed, and know the truth, and be able leave left wing indoctrination behind.
I used to spout that same left wing shit once I got out of school. Then, with the day to day reality of the workplace, I questioned my own beliefs. What I had been taught did not line up with what I was seeing with my two lying eyes. I watched Rush Limbaugh on TV, read his first book, and listened to his radio program. At first it was hard not to get defensive and pissed off. But, then I actually listened. He made sense and backed up everything with facts. He was, and remains, right. 'A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.' --Lauzi.
Ever count the number of times you spell Trump with a lower case 't'? I have. Same goes for anyone else you mention for whom you have obvious dislike. If you show no respect, you deserve none. You, and your ilk, slam me and anyone supporting Trump or his policies as a tool of Fox News. But now, you are just trying to understand. Horseshit.
You don't have come to the Political BS Forum of eGriz to look for the truth. Try the obvious. If you've got the time to read 448 pages of the Mueller report, and 400 pages of FISA application materials, you have time to turn on the TV and watch Fox News Channel, to turn on a radio and listen to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Michael Savage. Within a week or two, you will be up to speed, and know the truth, and be able leave left wing indoctrination behind.
I used to spout that same left wing shit once I got out of school. Then, with the day to day reality of the workplace, I questioned my own beliefs. What I had been taught did not line up with what I was seeing with my two lying eyes. I watched Rush Limbaugh on TV, read his first book, and listened to his radio program. At first it was hard not to get defensive and pissed off. But, then I actually listened. He made sense and backed up everything with facts. He was, and remains, right. 'A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.' --Lauzi.