The Book

[br fan]

Libel and slander suits are a lot more difficult to win for an elected public official than they are for a private individual. Krakauer's walking a line by raising a controversy about Pabst to spark interest and sell more books, but I'm sure he's been advised as to how far he can push it and the extent of his risk.

As PR noted, it's not always about the merits.

I understand that, but Krakauer's trying to sell a book. Saying outlandish things about Pabst immediately prior to and upon release of the book generated interest and controversy. It permitted him to advertise the book in national newscasts and it increased sales. But I think it's pretty apparent this was all planned. Pabst sent a letter that at a minimum implied a threat of litigation, and requested release of the book be delayed. Since the release was in the midst of the Rolling Stone debacle I have no doubt that both Krakaur and his publisher sought legal advice, and then made a conscious decision that the benefits outweighed the risks. I think Pabst's request to delay release actually insured it was released on time because it made it "hot news," and what Krakauer said in his statements and interviews were largely choreographed well ahead of time based on legal advice. I'm sure Krakauer has modified his spiel to a certain extent through the course of his interviews based on legal advice, but I also believe he is pushing the fine line as far as he can go to sell his book. The responses to his controversial statements generate additional interest in his book and increased sales. I have no doubt he feels that either he won't be sued, or if he is sued his exposure is not that great and he will get additional publicity and additional interviews on Niteline.

Dave Paoli is a very good attorney. But so's Meloy, and I'm pretty sure so is whoever else Krakauer and his publisher got to advise them. It's a cost benefit analysis, and I'm pretty sure Krakauer would actually relish being sued if he feels his exposure is minimal.

 

[UMGriz75]

Punitive damages may be a message but what was the final award in that McDonalds case?

The Judge agreed with McDonald's that the Jury had yielded to passion and prejudice, and after some other adjustments, reduced the punitive damages award by 80%.

 

[wbtfg]

Krakauer wasn't even elected.....how was he allowed to write a book?









10 bonus points to anyone who gets the reference...

 

[UMGriz75]

Dave Paoli is a very good attorney. But so's Meloy, and I'm pretty sure so is whoever else Krakauer and his publisher got to advise them. It's a cost benefit analysis, and I'm pretty sure Krakauer would actually relish being sued if he feels his exposure is minimal.

These kind of lawsuits open up the "process" entirely. Every note, every email, every recording, and often a "journalist" like Krakauer will heavily "shade" what people tell him in order to make his point, not their's. This is why many writers and officials are shifting entirely to email for communications, so they can "lose" them or "wipe their servers clean" if somebody gets too interested.

The Direct Examination of someone who has jerry-rigged his narrative from misrepresented interviews, records and communications, can be destroyed, absolutely destroyed during the Trial phase.

Indeed, for such a target, an enterprising young writer would no doubt make quite a splash with a book about how a famous writer attempted to twist and weave a non-story into a story, trying to salvage a meme from another discredited national story, and destroying lives and reputations in the process, so that he could make some money and advance a political narrative.

It would, inevitably, be entitled "Krakauer!" or perhaps just "The Krak!"

 

[UMGriz75]

Dave Paoli is a very good attorney. But so's Meloy, and I'm pretty sure so is whoever else Krakauer and his publisher got to advise them.

"Plaintiff's lawyers" are kind of a special breed. They relish precisely those kinds of epic battles. Cliff Edwards, a well known trial lawyer and father of one of UM's well known Quarterbacks, tells the story of a case he had in Livingston, in which the Burlington Northern, as usual, had turned down reasonable settlement offers, engaged in the usual discovery abuse, and then, just before the trial commenced, it's high-powered attorneys made a motion in chambers to Judge Swandal.

"Your Honor, we know that Mr. Edwards is a diligent advocate, but we feel that he prejudices juries and inflames their passions, and to avoid that result in this trial, we would like to make a motion."

"Ok, go ahead."

"We would like to move that Mr. Edwards not be allowed to refer to us during trial as "Corporate Counsel."

"What? Well, ... what are you?"

"Your honor, its not that we aren't corporate counsel. It's the way that Mr. Edwards says it whenever he utters the phrase. We believe it is highly prejudicial."

"Motion denied."

You could see that with Dave Paoli in the courtroom; the physically dominating presence of a former football player, physically and psychologically intimidating someone he held in utter contempt for even daring to be in the same courtroom, for daring to advocate a prosecution utterly corrupted by political considerations, Adam Duerk. And it wasn't just personal, it was a clear message to the jury to offer equal contempt for the attorney and for his case.

 

[TCCGRIZ]

I have to tell you guys this story ,my mind is kinda cloudy regarding this , My wife and I were in Missoula during the trial and we were eating dinner at the Outback . There was a fella sitting at the bar by himself spouting off on the trial of JJ and how Missoula is the rape capital of the US . Now bear with me my lovely wife calls me the polite police . If some one is being a jackass I will call them out . Well my wife hates that I do this and since I already had a few I figured it was against my best judgment at the time ( it was one of our very few romantic getaways for the year) I held my tongue . Why do I listen to myself !! . Well last night my wife and I were discussing the book and krackwhore ( she hasn't been up to date on this issue until last night ). She mentions this incident during our romantic getaway during the trial . We (or should I say she ) put 2 and 2 together and asked to see a picture of krackwhore . Lo and behold with my wife's memory ( as all men are aware of their significant others ability of recall lol ) she recognized him to be Mr. Krackwhore .
Damn it this Butte boy had him sorry fellas

 

[PlayerRep]

Libel and slander suits are a lot more difficult to win for an elected public official than they are for a private individual. Krakauer's walking a line by raising a controversy about Pabst to spark interest and sell more books, but I'm sure he's been advised as to how far he can push it and the extent of his risk.

As PR noted, it's not always about the merits.

I understand that, but Krakauer's trying to sell a book. Saying outlandish things about Pabst immediately prior to and upon release of the book generated interest and controversy. It permitted him to advertise the book in national newscasts and it increased sales. But I think it's pretty apparent this was all planned. Pabst sent a letter that at a minimum implied a threat of litigation, and requested release of the book be delayed. Since the release was in the midst of the Rolling Stone debacle I have no doubt that both Krakaur and his publisher sought legal advice, and then made a conscious decision that the benefits outweighed the risks. I think Pabst's request to delay release actually insured it was released on time because it made it "hot news," and what Krakauer said in his statements and interviews were largely choreographed well ahead of time based on legal advice. I'm sure Krakauer has modified his spiel to a certain extent through the course of his interviews based on legal advice, but I also believe he is pushing the fine line as far as he can go to sell his book. The responses to his controversial statements generate additional interest in his book and increased sales. I have no doubt he feels that either he won't be sued, or if he is sued his exposure is not that great and he will get additional publicity and additional interviews on Niteline.

Dave Paoli is a very good attorney. But so's Meloy, and I'm pretty sure so is whoever else Krakauer and his publisher got to advise them. It's a cost benefit analysis, and I'm pretty sure Krakauer would actually relish being sued if he feels his exposure is minimal.

I agree with most of what you said about the reasons Krakauer has been doing what he's doing in pre and post-release press. I don't think he's been properly advised, or is taking the advice. "Pushing a fine line" is often dangerous in Montana and would certainly not be my advice. If that is what he's doing, he's not getting the right advice or taking it, in my view. I wonder if his advice is coming mainly from non-Montana counsel, who wouldn't understand the strong plaintiffs support in MT law, with many judges, and with many juries. If Pabst's or Paoli's letters put Krakauer on notice of false statements, then, even if she or JJ were to be deemed to be public figures (which I don't think they are or should be under UM Sup. Ct. cases), then the additional protection for authors/publishers under defamation law would not apply. If a case against Krakauer were to proceed, it might do significant damage to his credibility, even if Krakauer ultimately prevailed in the case.

My view is that, in a plaintiffs case in Montana, Paoli would have the upper hand over Meloy by a wide margin. Paoli even showed how good of a criminal defense lawyer (not his expertise) he could be, in the JJ case.

 

[NorthEndZoneDan]

I have to tell you guys this story ,my mind is kinda cloudy regarding this , My wife and I were in Missoula during the trial and we were eating dinner at the Outback . There was a fella sitting at the bar by himself spouting off on the trial of JJ and how Missoula is the rape capital of the US . Now bear with me my lovely wife calls me the polite police . If some one is being a jackass I will call them out . Well my wife hates that I do this and since I already had a few I figured it was against my best judgment at the time ( it was one of our very few romantic getaways for the year) I held my tongue . Why do I listen to myself !! . Well last night my wife and I were discussing the book and krackwhore ( she hasn't been up to date on this issue until last night ). She mentions this incident during our romantic getaway during the trial . We (or should I say she ) put 2 and 2 together and asked to see a picture of krackwhore . Lo and behold with my wife's memory ( as all men are aware of their significant others ability of recall lol ) she recognized him to be Mr. Krackwhore .
Damn it this Butte boy had him sorry fellas

Hand Over The Egriz Card. Now.

 

[MrTitleist]

I have to tell you guys this story ,my mind is kinda cloudy regarding this , My wife and I were in Missoula during the trial and we were eating dinner at the Outback . There was a fella sitting at the bar by himself spouting off on the trial of JJ and how Missoula is the rape capital of the US . Now bear with me my lovely wife calls me the polite police . If some one is being a jackass I will call them out . Well my wife hates that I do this and since I already had a few I figured it was against my best judgment at the time ( it was one of our very few romantic getaways for the year) I held my tongue . Why do I listen to myself !! . Well last night my wife and I were discussing the book and krackwhore ( she hasn't been up to date on this issue until last night ). She mentions this incident during our romantic getaway during the trial . We (or should I say she ) put 2 and 2 together and asked to see a picture of krackwhore . Lo and behold with my wife's memory ( as all men are aware of their significant others ability of recall lol ) she recognized him to be Mr. Krackwhore .
Damn it this Butte boy had him sorry fellas

:ban:

 

[UMGriz75]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/columbia-student-defamed-by-mattress-girl-is-suing/article/2563566?custom_click=rss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is an example of an exonerated student, still being called "The Rapist," and his lawsuit.

The Columbia University student being called a rapist by members of the media and a woman who has been carrying her mattress around for performance art is suing.

Paul Nungesser was accused by fellow Columbia student Emma Sulkowicz of brutally beating and raping her during a sexual encounter he insists was consensual. Despite a police investigation that failed to charge Nungesser and the university finding him "not responsible," Sulkowicz and her enablers — including Democratic Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, have continued to harass Nungesser by calling him a "rapist."

Now, Nungesser is suing his university, its president and trustees and the visual arts professor that allowed the mattress project to go forward.

The lawsuit includes dozens of Facebook messages between the two friends — far more than were included in the Daily Beast article in which Nungesser finally told his side of the story. The messages contained many declarations of Sulkowicz's love for Nungesser before and after the alleged rape.

Seven months after the alleged rape, Sulkowicz filed a report with the university. The school spent another seven months investigating and after a two-hour hearing found Nungesser "not responsible." He was cleared of the charges even though he wasn't allowed to introduced the Facebook messages sent after the alleged rape showing no signs of distress from Sulkowicz.

Sulkowicz tried to get other women to accuse Nungesser of sexual assault. Columbia found Nungesser not responsible for those claims as well.

"Vengance" claims? They are real.

Her professor is included in the lawsuit because of his statements regarding the art project. In one article for the Columbia Spectator, her professor said "carrying around your university bed — which was also the site of your rape — is an amazingly significant and poignant and powerful symbol."

Meanwhile, Columbia has allowed this bullying and harassment of Nungesser to continue.

"In complete disregard of Paul's rights to be free of, among other things, gender-based harassment and gender based stalking, Columbia has allowed Emma to carry the mattress into each of her classes, the library, and on Columbia campus-provided transportation," the lawsuit states.

Columbia president Lee Bollinger is included in the lawsuit for publicly supporting Sulkowicz's harassment campaign against Nungesser.

"This is a person who is one of my students, and I care about all of my students," Bollinger told New York Magazine. "And when one of them feels that she has been a victim of mistreatment, I am affected by that. This is all very painful."

Of course, no such care was taken for Nungesser.

The woman now claims that the aggrieved male is making "public attempts to smear my reputation."

Yes. She actually said that.

The Lawsuit is here: https://kcjohnson.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/nungesser-complaint.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[statler & waldorf]

On PBS Newshour tonight.

More of the same, about 8 minutes long. A couple good questions which weren't followed up. But, it was PBS, they didn't get it right, they got it left.

 

[Hammer]

I have to tell you guys this story ,my mind is kinda cloudy regarding this , My wife and I were in Missoula during the trial and we were eating dinner at the Outback . There was a fella sitting at the bar by himself spouting off on the trial of JJ and how Missoula is the rape capital of the US . Now bear with me my lovely wife calls me the polite police . If some one is being a jackass I will call them out . Well my wife hates that I do this and since I already had a few I figured it was against my best judgment at the time ( it was one of our very few romantic getaways for the year) I held my tongue . Why do I listen to myself !! . Well last night my wife and I were discussing the book and krackwhore ( she hasn't been up to date on this issue until last night ). She mentions this incident during our romantic getaway during the trial . We (or should I say she ) put 2 and 2 together and asked to see a picture of krackwhore . Lo and behold with my wife's memory ( as all men are aware of their significant others ability of recall lol ) she recognized him to be Mr. Krackwhore .
Damn it this Butte boy had him sorry fellas

Hand Over The Egriz Card. Now.

I have a hard time believing he actually contained himself for once!!! LOL.
You needed the piece of wire that night TCC!!!!!

 

[argh!]

What the f*** are you even talking about? Pro tip that might help you in the future: Don't state speculation as fact. It makes you look silly. Seriously. Everyone knows what you're about, and most likely know who you are. Just stop.

stop. read your own prose for once. think. criticize.

Start over.

after coffee.

 

[GrizPony]

Just read the "Calvin Smith" (pseudonym) case in Krak's book and the only thing that becomes clear is the absolute god complex Couture has. He shuts down University legal counsel and basically seems to love that the new University Court procedures completely violate the Constitution and due process protections of our legal system. What a jackass he is.

 

[PlayerRep]

Just read the "Calvin Smith" (pseudonym) case in Krak's book and the only thing that becomes clear is the absolute god complex Couture has. He shuts down University legal counsel and basically seems to love that the new University Court procedures completely violate the Constitution and due process protections of our legal system. What a jackass he is.

Agreed. In that episode, the Dean won't even listen to legal advice from the long-time (several decades?) general counsel for UM, who says that aspects of the Dean's decisions and proceeding are fundamentally wrong and unfair. The Dean is rude to the general counsel. The Dean continues to bungle the investigation and process--and this is only days after the federal judge included wording in his opinion saying UM's process is completely unfair and violates anyone's sense of fairness. The Dean was so bad in this and other proceedings, that I'm starting to think his finest hour may have been his goofing up of the Saudi student matter. The Dean was totally biased and incompetent, in my view.

 

[jazzegriz]

If you have 40 minutes....this will explain everything to you.
warning: may need dictionary to follow.

The Truth About 'Rape Culture'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYo1ewgG94M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Umista]

It seems we will keep talking about "this" for many years...

 

[PlayerRep]

If you have 40 minutes....this will explain everything to you.
warning: may need dictionary to follow.

The Truth About 'Rape Culture'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYo1ewgG94M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rape Culture and Culture of Rape = Feminist theory and rape myth--at least as applied to places like Missoula and UM and teams. Anything that feminists and big anti-rape types don't like, whether true or not, categorized as Rape Culture.

 

[Ursa Major]

I understand that you are replying to one polemic view with another. Let's use some reasoned thought here. Rape is a problem and way too many get away with it. As a father you have to agree with that. When there is no physical evidence due to a lack of timely reporting we are often left with these he said/she said situations. It's often a vexing problem even with physical evidence and prosecutors have to make decisions about consent. The book aside, this is far from a black and white argument.

 

[EverettGriz]

I understand that you are replying to one polemic view with another. Let's use some reasoned thought here. Rape is a problem and way too many get away with it. As a father you have to agree with that. When there is no physical evidence due to a lack of timely reporting we are often left with these he said/she said situations. It's often a vexing problem even with physical evidence and prosecutors have to make decisions about consent. The book aside, this is far from a black and white argument.

Mods, please give Ursa the required one-week eGriz ban for violating the terms of use prohibiting the use of sound logic in any postings.


Thank you.