Rob Ash said some things today

[grizatwork]

citay or others, do you think it's okay for a recruit to verbal/commit to a school and then continue to remain in the recruiting process and look at other schools?

I don't, but the system has evolved that way. These kids have to pretty much save their place in line with the option of moving up in line or they will end up locked out of the show completely. It is a farce of a system, but it what they have in place.

I can see some of your point, but a recruit who has been offered and committed verbally, is not locked out of the system. He has an offer from a school he is willing to attend and play for.

I agree with you PR. I absolutely hate the "verbal commitment." In a perfect world, a person's own moral code or ethics would obligate them to stick to it. If you step back from the bobcat/griz thing and the fact that he brought it up at the signing day ceremony, I think you cat really see what Ash is trying to say. It is a crappy system that makes everyone look bad and if you don't play the game, then you will end up on the outside looking in. No one wins in the current system and high school seniors end up with an inordinate amount of pressure on them during a time that should be a lot of fun for them.

 

[PlayerRep]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/05/bobby-petrino-still-not-a-man-of-his-word/

Here is an article of exactly what I was talking about on the previous post. About none other than Montana's own Bobby Petrino. Who would think he would go back on his word??????

Petrino is bad news anyway you look at it. He is an extreme example. No recruit or person should trust what he says. No of the current or recently former Cat or Griz coaches are even close to Petrino in that respect.

There has to be some level of ethics and honesty in this process. If the level of ethics and honesty continues to deteriorate, the system will break down.

 

[Griz2k]

citay or others, do you think it's okay for a recruit to verbal/commit to a school and then continue to remain in the recruiting process and look at other schools?

Not saying I like it, but seems to be the nature of the beast. I'm not sure why Brekke flipped a couple years ago, but if I understand Daum's situation correctly, he wanted to go to UM, but was only offered a partial scholarship. The cats offer a full ride so he verbally commits. Stitt comes along and ups the Griz offer and Daum takes it. Are the cats pissed? Probably, just as the Griz probably were when Brekke changed his mind, but how do you stop it? It's an ugly "game" for sure. Win some lose some. Happened to the Griz this year as you know. It just always makes it sting more when a kid flips and chooses your arch rival instead.

I don't have an issue with the Daum situation, assuming that the Cats didn't have a specific discussion with him about what he would do if the Griz later offered a full ride and he responded that he would not take that Griz offer. I don't know the Brekke situation either. I do have a problem with other teams/coaches telling recruits things that were untrue about UM's ncaa investigation situation. Suggesting that a recruit take that into account is fine, but indicating that a playoff ban was coming would be unethical, in my view.

Yep, agreed.

 

[Grisly Fan]

Some people seem to want the benefits of a competitive system but want none of the not-so-nice side effects. Good luck with that. Competition is simply not for the gentle folk.

 

[PlayerRep]

Some people seem to want the benefits of a competitive system but want none of the not-so-nice side effects. Good luck with that. Competition is simply not for the gentle folk.

How does this apply to the college football recruiting situation? I don't understand.

Another question/situation. Do you think it's okay for a coach to encourage his players to hurt an opposing player--say by going low on the legs, hitting late, chop blocks, or hitting a hung-up player? Are you okay with how PSU does or did use the crack back blocks?

 

[UMGriz75]

I doubt there is a misunderstanding about what the "verbal commit" means. It gives a reassurance to the kid. Another coach comes along with a better offer. What's the kid to do?

Well, if you want to "change the system" is the change designed to improve the position of the coach, or of the kid?

It's designed to hurt the kid. It's all about coaches wanting more control.

The coach is the professional here; he knows the system, he knows the cards. The 17 year old does not. Ash, having failed this year with a system he was perfectly fine with previously, wants to stack the deck.

In legalese, the "verbal commit" is designed to offer protection to the weaker contracting party; the party with the most risk and the least knowledge and sophistication.

 

[Griz Time]

citay or others, do you think it's okay for a recruit to verbal/commit to a school and then continue to remain in the recruiting process and look at other schools?

If a school offered my room and board along with paying for my books and i took them up on it and another school, same division, later down the road offers me a full ride, Im probably gonna flip on my verbal.

or you commit to a school that offers you a full ride and later on down the road the school that you wanted to go to offers you a full ride, i would also flip my verbal..

Okay, I can agree with some of what you said, but you didn't answer my question.

I do Rep...these are still kids, teenagers. Come on...to have a sole expectation as adults that these kids shouldn't be influenced by a larger school, offering, friends going a different way, girlfriends, family pressures etc is well silly. This is probably one of the biggest decisions of their lives at that point in time. We look at these kids as freshly minted out of high school when they aren't. They are just starting the 2nd half of their senior year.
I fault the rules...too much time passes...either make the kids sign when they verbal or have an earlier signing period. And that answer doesn't really cure anything IMO based on your question. It probably solves some of this but not all.

 

[mcg]

No question the football recruiting system is less than perfect. The issue is that Coach Ron Ash was perfectly happy with it, even did a good job of exploiting it, until it worked against him. Then he got on his soapbox and delivered a morality discussion about it. B******t I'd say.

 

[CatzWillRise]

Things I have learned from this thread:

Most Griz fans don't care about ethical recruitment from players or coaches.
Rob Ash is a butthurt, hypocritical, soup grape spewing coach who failed at recruiting this year.
That if you've gone along with something for a long time, you aren't allowed to change your opinion.
That none of you are going to support the early signing date proposal making the rounds right now in college football (which echoes a lot of what Coach Ash said).

 

[AZGrizFan]

Things I have learned from this thread:

Most Griz fans don't care about ethical recruitment from players or coaches.
Rob Ash is a butthurt, hypocritical, soup grape spewing coach who failed at recruiting this year.
That if you've gone along with something for a long time, you aren't allowed to change your opinion.
That none of you are going to support the early signing date proposal making the rounds right now in college football (which echoes a lot of what Coach Ash said).

Really? Did Ash feel that way 2 years ago when he sat in Gunnar Brekke's living room and lied to him and his parents about the Griz program and convinced him to flip his verbal? OR is this a recent epiphany by the ol' .500 ball coach?

 

[grizpack]

Things I have learned from this thread:

Most Griz fans don't care about ethical recruitment from players or coaches.
Rob Ash is a butthurt, hypocritical, soup grape spewing coach who failed at recruiting this year.
That if you've gone along with something for a long time, you aren't allowed to change your opinion.
That none of you are going to support the early signing date proposal making the rounds right now in college football (which echoes a lot of what Coach Ash said).

I am all for the early signing day. That would solve a lot of the problem. "Willing to commit to this kid? OK - Sign here. It is binding on both of us." Let them sign as soon as they "commit". Then both sides have to live with it. If they aren't willing to do that, then both sides are on notice that they aren't that committed.

 

[Griz2k]

Things I have learned from this thread:

Most Griz fans don't care about ethical recruitment from players or coaches.
Rob Ash is a butthurt, hypocritical, soup grape spewing coach who failed at recruiting this year.
That if you've gone along with something for a long time, you aren't allowed to change your opinion.
That none of you are going to support the early signing date proposal making the rounds right now in college football (which echoes a lot of what Coach Ash said).

I don't think there's one poster here that wouldn't like to see more ethical recruiting...from both sides. But are you really not seeing how hypocritical Ash is being? Answer me this....do you think that Ash or any of his assistants immediately cease all contact with a recruit if that recruit verbals somewhere else? If you believe that's true, I believe you sir are seriously misguided.

 

[Griz2k]

Things I have learned from this thread:

Most Griz fans don't care about ethical recruitment from players or coaches.
Rob Ash is a butthurt, hypocritical, soup grape spewing coach who failed at recruiting this year.
That if you've gone along with something for a long time, you aren't allowed to change your opinion.
That none of you are going to support the early signing date proposal making the rounds right now in college football (which echoes a lot of what Coach Ash said).

I am all for the early signing day. That would solve a lot of the problem. "Willing to commit to this kid? OK - Sign here. It is binding on both of us." Let them sign as soon as they "commit". Then both sides have to live with it. If they aren't willing to do that, then both sides are on notice that they aren't that committed.

Totally agree.

 

[uofmman1122]

Things I have learned from this thread:

Most Griz fans don't care about ethical recruitment from players or coaches.
Rob Ash is a butthurt, hypocritical, soup grape spewing coach who failed at recruiting this year.
That if you've gone along with something for a long time, you aren't allowed to change your opinion.
That none of you are going to support the early signing date proposal making the rounds right now in college football (which echoes a lot of what Coach Ash said).

The pretty obvious consensus on here is that Ash has a point, and the system needs tweaking.

But the timing and the way Ash said those things is obvious sour grapes at best, and complete hypocrisy at worst. I'd call out the Griz coaches if they acted the same way.

We won't have to worry about Stitt losing his best kids to the Cats, though. So they won't be making any butthurt speeches anytime soon. :lol:

 

[grizatwork]

I still want to know why MSU flew Angel Villenueva into Bozeman for a visit when he was committed to the griz?

I don't disagree with the idea that verbal commitment doesn't mean anything anymore, but why did they continue to actively recruit Angel as well as the handful of other recruits that came into Bozeman who had verbaled elsewhere.

You can't rail at the corruption of the world with your right hand while you are accepting bribes with your left.

I don't disagree with the message, just the timing and hypocrisy of it.

 

[CatzWillRise]

The "game" is what it is. Ash isn't a fool, regardless of what this message board might believe, so yes he plays it because he has a job to do, and that is the way things are done right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't see the intrinsic problem with the current system, and isn't allowed to lobby for changes.

Look at all the other coaches around the country calling for the same thing. Are they just a bunch of bitter crybabies, or is Ash somehow a special case?

 

[UMGriz75]

I am all for the early signing day. That would solve a lot of the problem. "Willing to commit to this kid? OK - Sign here. It is binding on both of us." Let them sign as soon as they "commit". Then both sides have to live with it.

For starters, don't overestimate "signing day" regardless of when it is, or "signing anything" under these circumstances. For starters, until spring ball starts, there's no consideration. Kid isn't getting scholarship yet, University hasn't delivered play or position. These are entirely executory contracts. There are no damages for breaches of executory contracts.

So, if you move it up, then what?

And if the kid then takes another offer afterwards, sue the kid, right? Think the Board of Regents or the Legislature is going to waste money on those lawsuits?

How far do you think that would make it in court: "Rob Ash, Montana State University, the State of Montana vs. Joey Smith, 17 year old."

A 17 year old signing a "personal service contract" that is binding, and is drafted by MSU's high-powered lawyers. Seriously? Sounds like a nice "attorney relief act" for a new class of attorneys to represent 17 year old kids in contract negotiations with college teams.

For starters, "personal service contracts" are not subject to specific performance. Slavery and indentured servitude were abolished "some time ago." So, as a matter of law, a kid signing of these pieces of garbage can't be forced to play. Ironically, the University might still be forced to provide a scholarship. Be careful what you ask for.

So, what's the permitted remedy? Well, "liquidated damages." Liquidated damages can be agreed upon by the parties in a contract only when they are 1) reasonable and 2) can't be determined by the results of the breach. Such contract damages cannot be speculative, nor can they be unconscionable. What's more speculative than college football? What can a University reasonably claim it loses when a 17 year kid "breaks" his contract?

"Unconscionability involves two-prong determination: whether clause fits doctrine of contract of adhesion such that weaker bargaining party had no meaningful choice regarding acceptance of provisions and whether contractual terms are unreasonably favorable to drafter, usually the party with superior bargaining power."

So, what is the reasonable "liquidated damage" that a 17 year old should have to pay to Rob Ash for breaching his contract? That ought to be worth two years of litigation all by itself. And I guarantee that Rob will lose the lawsuit. And, since money damages are all that can be obtained, how good is that? How satisfying is that? Joey Smith owes MSU, what? $150.00? $10,000? $175,000? Will parents have to co-sign so that MSU can take away people's homes to satisfy Rob Ash's desire for vengeance?

Of course the whole point is to remove the element of choice from the 17 year old kid, in favor of the University's power to compel the kid to play football on its terms. It seeks to limit the market. These are contracts in restraint of trade in the first place, and contracts of adhesion in the second place; cartel contracts designed to limit the ability of 17 year olds to obtain their best market value. How noble is that? Nobility aside, they are already illegal.

And for a kid that is not getting a scholarship, what's the consideration for the contract? The coach's peace of mind; his element of control?

Under the Consumer Protection Act, the "party with the superior bargaining power" may, if it loses the case, be assessed with treble damages and attorney fees.

I cannot imagine much more of a can of worms than what Ash is proposing in his fit of spite and pique.

 

[AZGrizFan]

The "game" is what it is. Ash isn't a fool, regardless of what this message board might believe, so yes he plays it because he has a job to do, and that is the way things are done right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't see the intrinsic problem with the current system, and isn't allowed to lobby for changes.

Look at all the other coaches around the country calling for the same thing. Are they just a bunch of bitter crybabies, or is Ash somehow a special case?

Well, if he's playing this "game" then he should shut his mouth about his issues with it or risk being called out as hugely hypocritical by the vast majority of football fans. ESPECIALLY on signing day, which is supposed to be a positive event--for him AND for the kids who DID keep their commitments.

 

[CatzWillRise]

The "game" is what it is. Ash isn't a fool, regardless of what this message board might believe, so yes he plays it because he has a job to do, and that is the way things are done right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't see the intrinsic problem with the current system, and isn't allowed to lobby for changes.

Look at all the other coaches around the country calling for the same thing. Are they just a bunch of bitter crybabies, or is Ash somehow a special case?

Well, if he's playing this "game" then he should shut his mouth about his issues with it or risk being called out as hugely hypocritical by the vast majority of football fans. ESPECIALLY on signing day, which is supposed to be a positive event--for him AND for the kids who DID keep their commitments.

So when is it okay to address the issue? On the day most pertinent to the issue, signing day, or when the dust has settled in say 6 months?

 

[uofmman1122]

The "game" is what it is. Ash isn't a fool, regardless of what this message board might believe, so yes he plays it because he has a job to do, and that is the way things are done right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't see the intrinsic problem with the current system, and isn't allowed to lobby for changes.

Look at all the other coaches around the country calling for the same thing. Are they just a bunch of bitter crybabies, or is Ash somehow a special case?

Once again, I don't think many are arguing with what he's saying.

It's the fact that these thoughts came about only after getting his ass handed to him in in-state recruiting, and losing several recruits to other schools.

I'd be willing to bet that had he landed Daum and switched Villanueva away from us, this rant would have been absent in his signing day speech, because it would have been even mroe obviously and demonstrably hypocritical.

Again, he's conveniently never voiced his concern until the year he loses a ton of recruits, while still trying to take advantage of the system?

Take off your blue bobcat cup glasses and call a spade a spade:

He's a whiner and a hypocrite.