Rob Ash said some things today

[Grisly Fan]

The "game" is what it is. Ash isn't a fool, regardless of what this message board might believe, so yes he plays it because he has a job to do, and that is the way things are done right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't see the intrinsic problem with the current system, and isn't allowed to lobby for changes.

Look at all the other coaches around the country calling for the same thing. Are they just a bunch of bitter crybabies, or is Ash somehow a special case?

Well, if he's playing this "game" then he should shut his mouth about his issues with it or risk being called out as hugely hypocritical by the vast majority of football fans. ESPECIALLY on signing day, which is supposed to be a positive event--for him AND for the kids who DID keep their commitments.

So when is it okay to address the issue? On the day most pertinent to the issue, signing day, or when the dust has settled in say 6 months?

He chose to single out recruit commitment. Had he generalized his diatribe to rail on the system as a whole then he might gather some agreement. Better yet, rather than just complaining would be to suggest solutions that would make the system better. Even better yet would be to do that when it won't reek of sour grapes and suggest that the recruits he got were his second choices. All in all it would be hard to handle it much worse.

 

[CatzWillRise]

We had two players flip, not exactly a "ton". Daum, and Webster. The other guys we missed on signed somewhere else without ever committing to MSU first, same as every other year in the history of recruiting - you don't get all the guys you want. Alabama doesn't get all the guys they want.

Just following Big Sky recruiting this year on Twitter, it seems there were way more decommits and flips than I can remember. There was a guy who committed to UC Davis, then the next week to Cal Poly, and then the next week to Boise State. Can you blame the kid? No, but it proves the point Ash is trying to make that a commitment basically means nothing these days.

Take off your grizzly up glasses and see the bigger picture in what he is trying to say, instead of making it all about UM and how Ash lost Daum to UM. He may have been prompted to say those things, I don't know, but does that make anything he said untrue?

 

[Grizbeer]

The "game" is what it is. Ash isn't a fool, regardless of what this message board might believe, so yes he plays it because he has a job to do, and that is the way things are done right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't see the intrinsic problem with the current system, and isn't allowed to lobby for changes.

Look at all the other coaches around the country calling for the same thing. Are they just a bunch of bitter crybabies, or is Ash somehow a special case?

Well, if he's playing this "game" then he should shut his mouth about his issues with it or risk being called out as hugely hypocritical by the vast majority of football fans. ESPECIALLY on signing day, which is supposed to be a positive event--for him AND for the kids who DID keep their commitments.

So when is it okay to address the issue? On the day most pertinent to the issue, signing day, or when the dust has settled in say 6 months?

the best time to address this issue would have been on 2/6/2013, or even better on 12/23/2012.

 

[Griz2k]

We had two players flip, not exactly a "ton". Daum, and Webster. The other guys we missed on signed somewhere else without ever committing to MSU first, same as every other year in the history of recruiting - you don't get all the guys you want. Alabama doesn't get all the guys they want.

Just following Big Sky recruiting this year on Twitter, it seems there were way more decommits and flips than I can remember. There was a guy who committed to UC Davis, then the next week to Cal Poly, and then the next week to Boise State. Can you blame the kid? No, but it proves the point Ash is trying to make that a commitment basically means nothing these days.

Take off your grizzly up glasses and see the bigger picture in what he is trying to say, instead of making it all about UM and how Ash lost Daum to UM. He may have been prompted to say those things, I don't know, but does that make anything he said untrue?

I think you're still kind of missing the point. It's not so much what he said but when/where he said it. Can't you see how bad that makes him look? The Griz lost at least two kids this year that originally verballed to them, but you don't hear the Griz coaches squawking about it. How would cat fans have reacted a few years back if on signing day, Delaney was complaining about commitment right after Brekke flipped? They, maybe not you, would have been all over him.

 

[cclarkblues]

This is going to make another great chapter in my book:

"Fifty Shades Of Black And Blue

Griz Dominance

Cat Submission"





Radiation Fear

 

[G-BEARS]

Some people seem to want the benefits of a competitive system but want none of the not-so-nice side effects. Good luck with that. Competition is simply not for the gentle folk.

Reminds me of feminists.

 

[grizpack]

I am all for the early signing day. That would solve a lot of the problem. "Willing to commit to this kid? OK - Sign here. It is binding on both of us." Let them sign as soon as they "commit". Then both sides have to live with it.

For starters, don't overestimate "signing day" regardless of when it is, or "signing anything" under these circumstances. For starters, until spring ball starts, there's no consideration. Kid isn't getting scholarship yet, University hasn't delivered play or position. These are entirely executory contracts. There are no damages for breaches of executory contracts.

So, if you move it up, then what?

And if the kid then takes another offer afterwards, sue the kid, right? Think the Board of Regents or the Legislature is going to waste money on those lawsuits?

How far do you think that would make it in court: "Rob Ash, Montana State University, the State of Montana vs. Joey Smith, 17 year old."

A 17 year old signing a "personal service contract" that is binding, and is drafted by MSU's high-powered lawyers. Seriously? Sounds like a nice "attorney relief act" for a new class of attorneys to represent 17 year old kids in contract negotiations with college teams.

For starters, "personal service contracts" are not subject to specific performance. Slavery and indentured servitude were abolished "some time ago." So, as a matter of law, a kid signing of these pieces of garbage can't be forced to play. Ironically, the University might still be forced to provide a scholarship. Be careful what you ask for.

So, what's the permitted remedy? Well, "liquidated damages." Liquidated damages can be agreed upon by the parties in a contract only when they are 1) reasonable and 2) can't be determined by the results of the breach. Such contract damages cannot be speculative, nor can they be unconscionable. What's more speculative than college football? What can a University reasonably claim it loses when a 17 year kid "breaks" his contract?

"Unconscionability involves two-prong determination: whether clause fits doctrine of contract of adhesion such that weaker bargaining party had no meaningful choice regarding acceptance of provisions and whether contractual terms are unreasonably favorable to drafter, usually the party with superior bargaining power."

So, what is the reasonable "liquidated damage" that a 17 year old should have to pay to Rob Ash for breaching his contract? That ought to be worth two years of litigation all by itself. And I guarantee that Rob will lose the lawsuit. And, since money damages are all that can be obtained, how good is that? How satisfying is that? Joey Smith owes MSU, what? $150.00? $10,000? $175,000? Will parents have to co-sign so that MSU can take away people's homes to satisfy Rob Ash's desire for vengeance?

Of course the whole point is to remove the element of choice from the 17 year old kid, in favor of the University's power to compel the kid to play football on its terms. It seeks to limit the market. These are contracts in restraint of trade in the first place, and contracts of adhesion in the second place; cartel contracts designed to limit the ability of 17 year olds to obtain their best market value. How noble is that? Nobility aside, they are already illegal.

And for a kid that is not getting a scholarship, what's the consideration for the contract? The coach's peace of mind; his element of control?

Under the Consumer Protection Act, the "party with the superior bargaining power" may, if it loses the case, be assessed with treble damages and attorney fees.

I cannot imagine much more of a can of worms than what Ash is proposing in his fit of spite and pique.

Seems to work OK in basketball. If a school is a member of the NLI (which all NCAA schools are, and as far as I know, NAIA schools), both sides are bound. The consideration is offered and included in the contract. Whether the student uses it or not is up to him/her.

What is the National Letter of Intent (NLI)?

The NLI is a binding agreement between a prospective student-athlete and an NLI member institution

A prospective student-athlete agrees to attend the institution full-time for one academic year (two semesters or three quarters).
The institution agrees to provide athletics financial aid for one academic year (two semesters or three quarters).
Basic penalty for not fulfilling the NLI agreement: A student-athlete has to serve one year in residence (full-time, two semesters or three quarters) at the next NLI member institution and lose one season of competition in all sports

http://www.nationalletter.org/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[UMGriz75]

I would love to see the letter of intent litigated. It is so clearly a contract of adhesion it is ridiculous, and it is designed to intimidate the athletes by imposing a sanction that has no relationship to the University's "damages" for breach.

 

[tnt]

It may be business to some. But mostly its an experience that most of these kids have no way of understanding, they are not as calculating as some of you make out. They are 17 year olds with just about that much maturity.

My daughter and son were both pretty highly recruited. The wife and I went on the visits. The worked pretty hard on my wife and I. I can't imagine what they were laying on the kids. I still remember at Nebraska how excited she was to see her name on the reader board by the offices "Welcome Jessica XXX" We left with her sure that's where she was going. the same with Oregon and Kansas. She chose Kansas because she liked the cafeteria better go figure but it was several months of back and forth. And each visit had there been twitter I'm sure she would have told her friends thats where she was going........

The process is what it is. Early signing is NOT a good idea. These kids need time.

 

[AZGrizFan]

We had two players flip, not exactly a "ton". Daum, and Webster. The other guys we missed on signed somewhere else without ever committing to MSU first, same as every other year in the history of recruiting - you don't get all the guys you want. Alabama doesn't get all the guys they want.

Just following Big Sky recruiting this year on Twitter, it seems there were way more decommits and flips than I can remember. There was a guy who committed to UC Davis, then the next week to Cal Poly, and then the next week to Boise State. Can you blame the kid? No, but it proves the point Ash is trying to make that a commitment basically means nothing these days.

Take off your grizzly up glasses and see the bigger picture in what he is trying to say, instead of making it all about UM and how Ash lost Daum to UM. He may have been prompted to say those things, I don't know, but does that make anything he said untrue?

Again, where was his "high and mighty" attitude two years ago when he sat in Gunnar Brekke's living room and lied to them about the Griz Program and it's coming consequences to convince Gunnar to flip? Why was it ok THEN but it's just fucking BLASPHEMY now?

 

[CDAGRIZ]

We had two players flip, not exactly a "ton". Daum, and Webster. The other guys we missed on signed somewhere else without ever committing to MSU first, same as every other year in the history of recruiting - you don't get all the guys you want. Alabama doesn't get all the guys they want.

Just following Big Sky recruiting this year on Twitter, it seems there were way more decommits and flips than I can remember. There was a guy who committed to UC Davis, then the next week to Cal Poly, and then the next week to Boise State. Can you blame the kid? No, but it proves the point Ash is trying to make that a commitment basically means nothing these days.

Take off your grizzly up glasses and see the bigger picture in what he is trying to say, instead of making it all about UM and how Ash lost Daum to UM. He may have been prompted to say those things, I don't know, but does that make anything he said untrue?

Again, where was his "high and mighty" attitude two years ago when he sat in Gunnar Brekke's living room and lied to them about the Griz Program and it's coming consequences to convince Gunnar to flip? Why was it ok THEN but it's just fucking BLASPHEMY now?

Because Ron Ash only likes to play the game when it benefits him. That is about 50% of the time.

 

[jodcon]

 

[Griz2k]

It may be business to some. But mostly its an experience that most of these kids have no way of understanding, they are not as calculating as some of you make out. They are 17 year olds with just about that much maturity.

My daughter and son were both pretty highly recruited. The wife and I went on the visits. The worked pretty hard on my wife and I. I can't imagine what they were laying on the kids. I still remember at Nebraska how excited she was to see her name on the reader board by the offices "Welcome Jessica XXX" We left with her sure that's where she was going. the same with Oregon and Kansas. She chose Kansas because she liked the cafeteria better go figure but it was several months of back and forth. And each visit had there been twitter I'm sure she would have told her friends thats where she was going........

The process is what it is. Early signing is NOT a good idea. These kids need time.

And if she had had a change of heart and decided she really wanted to go to Oregon instead, Ash and his henchmen would have been all over her about the meaning of the word commitment.

 

[movielover]

We had two players flip, not exactly a "ton". Daum, and Webster. The other guys we missed on signed somewhere else without ever committing to MSU first, same as every other year in the history of recruiting - you don't get all the guys you want. Alabama doesn't get all the guys they want.

Just following Big Sky recruiting this year on Twitter, it seems there were way more decommits and flips than I can remember. There was a guy who committed to UC Davis, then the next week to Cal Poly, and then the next week to Boise State. Can you blame the kid? No, but it proves the point Ash is trying to make that a commitment basically means nothing these days. ...

For the record, you have the Davis story wrong. I believe the player in question is Matt Locher, a 3 star LB from Los Alamitos High School. He didn't play his junior year, but started gaining traction as his season progressed with his impressive numbers. He had 5, 6, 7 offers... he was listed as a 240# - 250# MLB. He committed to Cal Poly SLO, and then about a week later flipped to Boise State after a visit.

I believe both Cal Poly and Sac State suffered several "flips".

 

[big kahuna]

Ash is feeling the heat to get further in the playoffs. Note the drop-downs. The guy he replaced at one time went the same route.

 

[EverettGriz]

The "game" is what it is. Ash isn't a fool, regardless of what this message board might believe, so yes he plays it because he has a job to do, and that is the way things are done right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't see the intrinsic problem with the current system, and isn't allowed to lobby for changes.

Look at all the other coaches around the country calling for the same thing. Are they just a bunch of bitter crybabies, or is Ash somehow a special case?

Very few disagree. What we're saying is that the message would have had far more impact during a year when Ash pulled Brekke away from UM. Saying it when he did makes him appear to be a very sore loser, and the message gets wiped away in the process.

 

[Grisly Fan]

The "game" is what it is. Ash isn't a fool, regardless of what this message board might believe, so yes he plays it because he has a job to do, and that is the way things are done right now. That doesn't mean he doesn't see the intrinsic problem with the current system, and isn't allowed to lobby for changes.

Look at all the other coaches around the country calling for the same thing. Are they just a bunch of bitter crybabies, or is Ash somehow a special case?

Very few disagree. What we're saying is that the message would have had far more impact during a year when Ash pulled Brekke away from UM. Saying it when he did makes him appear to be a very sore loser, and the message gets wiped away in the process.

He could have stood up and admitting pulling offers from recruits is unethical and commit to never do it (again) and complain about the rules set forth by the NCAA and commit to take the issue up appropriately and yeah complain about recruits that decommit at the last moment and the impact it has on the team. He chose only the latter and for that he is a whiner crybaby instead of someone actually trying to make a difference.

 

[cclarkblues]

Ash is some mucky-muck in some coaches group if I remember correctly. He could have addressed this years ago and attempted to make a change to the system he is now decrying. But its kind of like bitching at your wife for having an affair when you have been running around on her for years.

 

[Phat Cat]

We had two players flip, not exactly a "ton". Daum, and Webster. The other guys we missed on signed somewhere else without ever committing to MSU first, same as every other year in the history of recruiting - you don't get all the guys you want. Alabama doesn't get all the guys they want.

Just following Big Sky recruiting this year on Twitter, it seems there were way more decommits and flips than I can remember. There was a guy who committed to UC Davis, then the next week to Cal Poly, and then the next week to Boise State. Can you blame the kid? No, but it proves the point Ash is trying to make that a commitment basically means nothing these days.

Take off your grizzly up glasses and see the bigger picture in what he is trying to say, instead of making it all about UM and how Ash lost Daum to UM. He may have been prompted to say those things, I don't know, but does that make anything he said untrue?

Again, where was his "high and mighty" attitude two years ago when he sat in Gunnar Brekke's living room and lied to them about the Griz Program and it's coming consequences to convince Gunnar to flip? Why was it ok THEN but it's just f***[*] BLASPHEMY now?

So when you were sitting with Gunner and his P's, what did ASH say? I would like to know? My 2nd cousin went to high school with him and they are really good friends. They both are over here in Bozeman at MSU. So tell me what you heard while you were sitting in that living room, AZ. Because, I will get it from the kid himself. But I'd like to hear what you remember.

 

[EverettGriz]

Rumor has it he (or someone on his staff) indicated they had it on good authority that UM was going to get a significant playoff ban. But who the hell really knows.

But Phat, even you have to see how ridiculous Ash's comments seem when compared with his actions.

Simply put, there was a MUCH better way to handle the deliverance of his message.