Question for Military & ex-military?

[AZGrizFan]

22 year naval officer here. I said it on another message board the day it happened.....he was going to lose his command and it was the right thing to do. As a commanding officer you don’t a) violate the chain of command, b) “leak” anything to get your way, c) announce to the rest of the world that a US aircraft carrier was out of commission and going offline because of a virus spreading throughout the ship.

He literally did nothing right in this scenario. And I’m sure he knew it. Either he’s stupid, or he was getting REALLY bad advice from his subordinates. Or both.

or he judged those above him who he had tried to reason with as incompetent, i.e. that they were the navy version of major major from the book catch-22.

Except he doesn’t get to make that “judgement”..... the COC made a decision....politically motivated or not, you do what you’re told in the military. It ain’t a fucking democracy.

 

[first11]

Chain of command?

CO in difficult position. Acted I pray the folks at top could act w/o ramifications to their personal stake/status.

History will judge us all

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

22 year naval officer here. I said it on another message board the day it happened.....he was going to lose his command and it was the right thing to do. As a commanding officer you don’t a) violate the chain of command, b) “leak” anything to get your way, c) announce to the rest of the world that a US aircraft carrier was out of commission and going offline because of a virus spreading throughout the ship.

He literally did nothing right in this scenario. And I’m sure he knew it. Either he’s stupid, or he was getting REALLY bad advice from his subordinates. Or both.

Ensign, I assume, you nailed it! My brother-in-law in Oak Harbor (a retired Master Chief for what it's worth) referred to the commander as an idiot for letting them have the opportunity to enjoy the many benefits of Korea while deployed on sea duty and exposing the entire crew
to this virus. I wasn't aware of that act of brilliance that led to the spread onboard. There's always a lot more facts and data we on the outside aren't aware of in these media driven misinformation snipits.

Edit* My apologies. Misread as a 22 year-old Naval Officer.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Chain of command?

CO in difficult position. Acted I pray the folks at top could act w/o ramifications to their personal stake/status.

History will judge us all

Or they could do their jobs too. Which is to keep the deterrent at sea like it’s meant to be. This ain’t a fucking call center we’re talking about....they deal with life and death out there every single day.

 

[SoCal Surfer]

AZ Griz Fan,

You are spot on!! I'm a 21 yr Army Officer who commanded several times. I agree with what you said 100%.

Another fact that isn't mentioned is that the Captain of this ship didn't confer with his superior prior to sending his letter. His superior was located on the same ship.

 

[indian-outlaw]

The diff btwn regular, service and spec ops "opinions" couldn't be more obvious. The majority who say he broke chain of command...blah blah blah are regular, leg cannon fodder, dogma jackasses... the "Get shit done and solve the problem" spec ops folks applaud the Skipper. What's not being said is he sent his concerns up the dogma, small minded, uncreative C.O.C. nothing happened to solve the problem bc they were too busy trying to cover their own asses and sustain their careers. Therefore, in the interest of upholding his sacred oath of taking care of his men and women, he did what he had to do. He should be applauded, his crew are the folks on the ground with the proper context of the situation, all one needs to do is look at their actions to determine whether or not the skipper did the right thing... good one on the skipper!

Wrong. Of course the crew loved it. But he still made the wrong decision...for the reasons outlined in my post above this. 155 cases of the virus, among a crew of over 5,000. Not a single case required hospitalization, as you would expect in a group of 5,000+ relatively young, very fit service members. Seems like a massive overreaction on his part.

If I were in his shoes and I’d decided it was worth risking my career over, I STILL wouldn’t have done it the way he did because of reason (c). Honestly, that’s probably the most egregious thing about what he did. I’d have gone to my boss. Then to my boss’s boss. And so on....NEVER GOING PUBLIC. Eventually it would have gotten to Trump and you KNOW he wouldn’t be capable of keeping his mouth shut about it.... :lol:

Oh BS... Once you are that high up in the chain of command there are politics involved. People stepping on each other to get another star. Sometimes people have to just do the right thing despite what some bureaucratic says. I applaud the guy for doing the right thing.
I was a corporal in the Marines back in the day and as an infantry squad leader the chain of command was quite black and white but it is not at the admiral/general level.

Sure there’s politics. There’s also his job. Which he did not do. So there’s that....

I suppose you could say that. I couldn't possibly operate in those circles.

 

[Harm]

Actually quite the opposite AZ. My best friend choked and drowned on his own blood right next to me after getting a hole poked in him, I possibly could've changed the outcome but didn't bc there were still a few shitheads to deal with. So, no, I've had no problem shutting anything on anyone (esp, squiddies...) when there's still work to do. Diff situation at the time with the Skipper. However, the whole shore leave in Korea wasn't the best idea....then again, neither was holding Mardi-Gras, or Miami not shutting things asap. Hindsight 20/20, Skipper still made the right call. Also, if u dont think O's have a sacred duty to take care of their folks, then there's just no getting thru. Doesnt mean NOT sacrificing some when necessary, that situation, it wasn't necessary.

 

[grizband]

The Captain has now reportedly tested positive for Covid-19.

 

[SoldierGriz]

...”Worth risking my career over.....” couldn’t have put it on display better... IOW... worried about ones own career and ass instead of those your entrusted to take care of...those kinds of O’s never made it in, or were quickly discovered and kicked out and back down to the regular slug ranks... He put the mission and men first, before himself.

More will come out on what the Skipper TRIED to do, before he was left with no other choice. Whatever happens to him, which will most likely be to sacrifice him bc of admiral, SECNAV etc...embarrassment, he made the right call.

He’s not “entrusted to take care of anyone”. He has one job. To ensure that ship is ready to fight. Not puss out because a couple of guys got sick. You’re the type of guy who wouldn’t shut the watertight door with guys inside if the compartment was flooding, and risk losing the whole ship, right? Because you didn’t want to lose any of those guys you’re “entrusted to take care of”? :roll:

He had 155 otherwise healthy 20-somethings who got sick. BFD. Keep the ship ready to fight. Adapt. Overcome. If this is what the military has come to we might as well pack up and f###[#] go home, honestly.

Perfect illustration of the differences between services. In the Army, the Soldier is the weapon. There is nothing more important than taking care of those you're entrusted to lead.

I'd never sacrifice the men I lead for an Abrams, Bradley, Apache, Stryker, or Paladin. Never.

I don't think the Captain is totally clean in this...but, man the Navy is quick to fire leaders.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Actually quite the opposite AZ. My best friend choked and drowned on his own blood right next to me after getting a hole poked in him, I possibly could've changed the outcome but didn't bc there were still a few shitheads to deal with. So, no, I've had no problem shutting anything on anyone (esp, squiddies...) when there's still work to do. Diff situation at the time with the Skipper. However, the whole shore leave in Korea wasn't the best idea....then again, neither was holding Mardi-Gras, or Miami not shutting things asap. Hindsight 20/20, Skipper still made the right call. Also, if u dont think O's have a sacred duty to take care of their folks, then there's just no getting thru. Doesnt mean NOT sacrificing some when necessary, that situation, it wasn't necessary.

Lots of mistakes made here....not the least of which was the shore leave....but he had a total of 155 cases of non-lethal sickness amongst a crew of over 5,000. It’s not like a carrier is carrying a boatload of 80-somethings with preexisting conditions...it’s 5,000 20-30 year olds in peak physical condition. The odds of any of them dying from this is about 0.01%. Hell, an aircraft carrier is one of the most dangerous places on EARTH already....many times multiple deaths occur on every WestPac....to shut it down and announce to the world that the ship was OOC was just about the dumbest thing he could have done. There was no logical reason to panic like he did....honestly, he wasn’t fit for command if that’s his reaction to a little stress.

I’m sure in the Navy’s after-action report on this (and there WILL be one done), they’ll look at the chain of events the led up to the letter being released and realize there were about 10 opportunities to break that chain....none were taken....some were presented to the CO, some were presented to others....any one of which would have broken the chain....but here we are. And I stand by the assertion that the Navy STILL did the right thing in relieving him of his command.

 

[AZGrizFan]

...”Worth risking my career over.....” couldn’t have put it on display better... IOW... worried about ones own career and ass instead of those your entrusted to take care of...those kinds of O’s never made it in, or were quickly discovered and kicked out and back down to the regular slug ranks... He put the mission and men first, before himself.

More will come out on what the Skipper TRIED to do, before he was left with no other choice. Whatever happens to him, which will most likely be to sacrifice him bc of admiral, SECNAV etc...embarrassment, he made the right call.

He’s not “entrusted to take care of anyone”. He has one job. To ensure that ship is ready to fight. Not puss out because a couple of guys got sick. You’re the type of guy who wouldn’t shut the watertight door with guys inside if the compartment was flooding, and risk losing the whole ship, right? Because you didn’t want to lose any of those guys you’re “entrusted to take care of”? :roll:

He had 155 otherwise healthy 20-somethings who got sick. BFD. Keep the ship ready to fight. Adapt. Overcome. If this is what the military has come to we might as well pack up and f###[#] go home, honestly.

Perfect illustration of the differences between services. In the Army, the Soldier is the weapon. There is nothing more important than taking care of those you're entrusted to lead.

I'd never sacrifice the men I lead for an Abrams, Bradley, Apache, Stryker, or Paladin. Never.

I don't think the Captain is totally clean in this...but, man the Navy is quick to fire leaders.

Easier to do when you can go back to the camp and just get another Abrams. Not so easy to do if you lose the carrier. :thumb:

 

[AZGrizFan]

Wrong. Of course the crew loved it. But he still made the wrong decision...for the reasons outlined in my post above this. 155 cases of the virus, among a crew of over 5,000. Not a single case required hospitalization, as you would expect in a group of 5,000+ relatively young, very fit service members. Seems like a massive overreaction on his part.

If I were in his shoes and I’d decided it was worth risking my career over, I STILL wouldn’t have done it the way he did because of reason (c). Honestly, that’s probably the most egregious thing about what he did. I’d have gone to my boss. Then to my boss’s boss. And so on....NEVER GOING PUBLIC. Eventually it would have gotten to Trump and you KNOW he wouldn’t be capable of keeping his mouth shut about it.... :lol:

Oh BS... Once you are that high up in the chain of command there are politics involved. People stepping on each other to get another star. Sometimes people have to just do the right thing despite what some bureaucratic says. I applaud the guy for doing the right thing.
I was a corporal in the Marines back in the day and as an infantry squad leader the chain of command was quite black and white but it is not at the admiral/general level.

Sure there’s politics. There’s also his job. Which he did not do. So there’s that....

I suppose you could say that. I couldn't possibly operate in those circles.

Nor could I, Outlaw....which was why I ultimately got out...

 

[Dutch Lane]

Actually quite the opposite AZ. My best friend choked and drowned on his own blood right next to me after getting a hole poked in him, I possibly could've changed the outcome but didn't bc there were still a few shitheads to deal with. So, no, I've had no problem shutting anything on anyone (esp, squiddies...) when there's still work to do. Diff situation at the time with the Skipper. However, the whole shore leave in Korea wasn't the best idea....then again, neither was holding Mardi-Gras, or Miami not shutting things asap. Hindsight 20/20, Skipper still made the right call. Also, if u dont think O's have a sacred duty to take care of their folks, then there's just no getting thru. Doesnt mean NOT sacrificing some when necessary, that situation, it wasn't necessary.

Lots of mistakes made here....not the least of which was the shore leave....but he had a total of 155 cases of non-lethal sickness amongst a crew of over 5,000. It’s not like a carrier is carrying a boatload of 80-somethings with preexisting conditions...it’s 5,000 20-30 year olds in peak physical condition. The odds of any of them dying from this is about 0.01%. Hell, an aircraft carrier is one of the most dangerous places on EARTH already....many times multiple deaths occur on every WestPac....to shut it down and announce to the world that the ship was OOC was just about the dumbest thing he could have done. There was no logical reason to panic like he did....honestly, he wasn’t fit for command if that’s his reaction to a little stress.

I’m sure in the Navy’s after-action report on this (and there WILL be one done), they’ll look at the chain of events the led up to the letter being released and realize there were about 10 opportunities to break that chain....none were taken....some were presented to the CO, some were presented to others....any one of which would have broken the chain....but here we are. And I stand by the assertion that the Navy STILL did the right thing in relieving him of his command.

You really need to check your facts because my understanding Is the shore leave was in Dah Nang on March 5 not Korea. Also this port of call had been planned for over a year by the Navy i.e. the Trump administration and not by this captain. It was part of the pr campaign this administration is waging in its on going trade war with China to have another US carrier visit Vietnam. There were government dignitaries from both the US and Vietnamese at the port of call ceremony of only the 2nd US carrier to ever visit Vietnam. So there’s that.

I read in the military times that when a hotel that 30 sailors were staying had 5 British citizens at the same hotel test positive for covid-19 shore leave was canceled and every sailor who returned to the ship was tested before being allowed on board.

So riddle me this why was Trump dumping on the captain in his briefing today for saying it was dumb of him to have let his sailors visit Vietnam. Isn’t he the top of the chain of command and isn’t it ultimately he and his administrations call when and where warships visit during trade wars? Also why didn’t the military chain of command investigate the matter first rather then the acting secretary of navy (who told his colleagues that trump wanted the guy fired)simply fire him without an investigation? Also the fleet commander and his staff are stationed on board the captain’s ship you really think he failed to discuss the crisis with his Navy chain of command on his ship? This stinks of pure Trump incompetence and his narcissistic impulses to pass the buck and destroy a perceived never Trumper navy captain.

I did read the captains letter (everyone should) which was not a plea for help, as reported in the right stream media. Rather is it was a detailed request sent to the chain of command at the Pentagon but also leaked to the San Fransisco Chronicle by parties unknown in the chain of command to which it was sent (suspicion is it was actually leaked by someone in the acting secretary of navy’s office at the pentagon, probably payback by left over ally of the former fired by Trump secretary of the navy) to implement a plan formulated by the captain and his staff to handle the situation, by quarantining the majority of the crew in individual rooms or tents on Guam where they had been directed to steam to after the virus first showed up on the ship. He outlined that 10% of the crew would remain on board to administer to the reactor and other controls much like what routinely happens when ships dock and are out of service. He then formulated a plan to clean the entire ship and ventilation system and only permit crew back on board who been quarantined for 14 days on Guam and also tested negative (Guam has 8,860 hotel rooms) His letter also outlined that if need be in a time of war or crisis the ships crew would still immediately be able to get back to sea even while sick and still infected and still complete any mission. So that was the plan he requested to implement and for which he was fired by Trump. The Trump or Navy plan was to let the crew of 5000 continue to stay aboard the infected ship while anchored in Guam while the virus spread without adequate medical services and adequate facilities to properly quarantine the crew and slowly take of the crew not in mass like the captain requested to do.

Well guess who’s plan the Navy is now implementing to deal with the crisis? If you said the captain’s then you guessed right and you would have gotten fired for it also. They are doing exactly what he recommends in his letter, go figure. Lol Nothing like the top of the chain of command again taking zero responsibility for anything that happens on his watch, because he knows more then his generals and admirals right?

Sorry, but your assertion that the Navy did the right thing by relieving him of his command is totally off base. The Navy didn’t relieved him of his command, Trump did. On April 1st, the Navy i.e. the acting secretary of the Navy as reported in military.com, stated that the Captain absolutely would not be reprimanded or punished for his letter. So there’s also that. #winning :thumb:

 

[kemajic]

My understanding Is the shore leave was in Dah nang on March 5 not Korea. Also this port of call had been planned for over a year by the Navy not this captain. It was part of the pr campaign this administration is waging in its on going trade war with China. There were government dignitaries from both the US and Vietnamese at the docking ceremony of only the 2nd US carrier to ever visit Vietnam. So there’s that.

I read that when a hotel that 30 sailors were staying had 5 British citizens at the same hotel tested positive for covid-19 shore leave was canceled and every sailor who returned to the ship was tested before being allowed on board.

So riddle me this why was Trump dumping on the captain in his briefing today for saying it was dumb of him to have let his sailors visit Vietnam. Isn’t he the top of the chain of command and isn’t it ultimately he and his administrations call when and where warships visit during trade wars? Also why didn’t the military chain of command investigate the matter first rather then the acting secretary of navy (who told his colleagues that trump wanted the guy fired)simply fire him without an investigation? Also the fleet commander and his staff are stationed on board the captain’s ship you really don’t think he discussed the crisis with his Navy chain of command on his ship? This stinks of pure Trump incompetence and his narcissistic impulses to pass the buck and destroy a perceived never Trumper navy captain.

I did read the captains letter (everyone should) which was a detailed request sent to the chain of command at the Pentagon but also leaked to the San Fransisco Chronicle by parties unknown in the chain of command to which it was sent, to implement a plan formulated by the captain and his staff to handle the situation, by quarantining the majority of the crew on Guam where they had been directed to steam to after the virus showed up on the ship. He outlined that 10% of the crew would remain on board to administer to the reactor and other controls much like what routinely happens when ships dock. He then formulated a plan to clean the entire ship and ventilation system and only permit crew back on board who been quarantined for 14 days and tested negative. So that was the plan he requested to implement and for which he was fired by Trump. The Trump or Navy plan was to let the crew of 5000 continue to stay aboard the infected ship while anchored in Guam while the virus spread without adequate medical services and adequate facilities to properly quarantine the crew.

Well guess who’s plan the Navy is now implementing to the deal with the crisis? If you said the captain’s then you guessed right and you would have been fired for it also. They are doing exactly what he recommends in his letter, go figure. Lol Nothing like the top of the chain of command again taking zero responsibility for anything that happens on his watch, because he knows more then his generals and admirals right?

Sorry, but your assertion that the Navy did the right thing by relieving him of his command is wrong. The Navy didn’t relieved him of his command, Trump did. On April 1st the Navy, or rather the secretary of the Navy as reported in the military times stated that the Captain absolutely would not be reprimanded or punished for his letter. So there’s also that. #winning :thumb:

Here we go again, always it's Trump's fault. The thought that he's hijacking the Naval chain of command on an item like this with everything else he has on his plate is just more of the Left propaganda. Hell, he probably leaked the letter to the press, right? Get real.

 

[Dutch Lane]

My understanding Is the shore leave was in Dah nang on March 5 not Korea. Also this port of call had been planned for over a year by the Navy not this captain. It was part of the pr campaign this administration is waging in its on going trade war with China. There were government dignitaries from both the US and Vietnamese at the docking ceremony of only the 2nd US carrier to ever visit Vietnam. So there’s that.

I read that when a hotel that 30 sailors were staying had 5 British citizens at the same hotel tested positive for covid-19 shore leave was canceled and every sailor who returned to the ship was tested before being allowed on board.

So riddle me this why was Trump dumping on the captain in his briefing today for saying it was dumb of him to have let his sailors visit Vietnam. Isn’t he the top of the chain of command and isn’t it ultimately he and his administrations call when and where warships visit during trade wars? Also why didn’t the military chain of command investigate the matter first rather then the acting secretary of navy (who told his colleagues that trump wanted the guy fired)simply fire him without an investigation? Also the fleet commander and his staff are stationed on board the captain’s ship you really don’t think he discussed the crisis with his Navy chain of command on his ship? This stinks of pure Trump incompetence and his narcissistic impulses to pass the buck and destroy a perceived never Trumper navy captain.

I did read the captains letter (everyone should) which was a detailed request sent to the chain of command at the Pentagon but also leaked to the San Fransisco Chronicle by parties unknown in the chain of command to which it was sent, to implement a plan formulated by the captain and his staff to handle the situation, by quarantining the majority of the crew on Guam where they had been directed to steam to after the virus showed up on the ship. He outlined that 10% of the crew would remain on board to administer to the reactor and other controls much like what routinely happens when ships dock. He then formulated a plan to clean the entire ship and ventilation system and only permit crew back on board who been quarantined for 14 days and tested negative. So that was the plan he requested to implement and for which he was fired by Trump. The Trump or Navy plan was to let the crew of 5000 continue to stay aboard the infected ship while anchored in Guam while the virus spread without adequate medical services and adequate facilities to properly quarantine the crew.

Well guess who’s plan the Navy is now implementing to the deal with the crisis? If you said the captain’s then you guessed right and you would have been fired for it also. They are doing exactly what he recommends in his letter, go figure. Lol Nothing like the top of the chain of command again taking zero responsibility for anything that happens on his watch, because he knows more then his generals and admirals right?

Sorry, but your assertion that the Navy did the right thing by relieving him of his command is wrong. The Navy didn’t relieved him of his command, Trump did. On April 1st the Navy, or rather the secretary of the Navy as reported in the military times stated that the Captain absolutely would not be reprimanded or punished for his letter. So there’s also that. #winning :thumb:

Here we go again, always it's Trump's fault. The thought that he's hijacking the Naval chain of command on an item like this with everything else he has on his plate is just more of the Left propaganda. Hell, he probably leaked the letter to the press, right? Get real.

Really lame retort there kem. At least make an argument with some meat on the bone. Riddle me this if you can, who fired the national security agency’s inspector general on Friday night? The chain of command or Trump. Couldn’t have been Trump right because he has so much on his plate right now to engage in petty mean girl payback at a time like this right.lol The leftest foxnews reported that it was Trump who had him fired he even bragged talked about it in his presser. Smh

The suspicion in this case is someone in the acting secretary of navy’s office, most likely a former ally of the last secretary of the navy trump fired, leaked it. Did you see in my post where the acting secretary of the navy stated that the Captain wouldn’t be retaliated against for his letter? Come on smart guy you get real to inconvenient facts, who overruled him on that one, not Trump right? All wait if you have anything else. #winning

 

[100%GRIZ]

I’m sure Trump is aware of where every ship is every second of the day especially during a Major pandemic!

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

I’m sure Trump is aware of where every ship is every second of the day especially during a Major pandemic!

Well stated. Brevity is an art taught in military courses such as Command and General Staff and the War College. So is sarcasm but I subscribe to the thought that is an innate skill that separates a JAG from a civilian lawyer. Present the facts, review the UCMJ and act accordingly. Over and done with and carry on. Sometimes we do need the REMFs but not often...even though it takes 100 Combat Support and Combat Service Support REMFs to properly support one infantryman...

How many SEALs on a carrier? The carrier has a new commander and is functioning. Read the after-action report when it's made public in a couple of years.

 

[Dutch Lane]

I’m sure Trump is aware of where every ship is every second of the day especially during a Major pandemic!

What exactly is your point? That Trump didn’t know a US aircraft carrier was visiting Vietnam on March 5th, for only the second time in history or that he didn’t know that the same carrier had docked in Guam the end of March with the very first covid-19 outbreak of a US Navy ship? So no one in his administration reported any of this to him in real time? Thanks

 

[Dutch Lane]

I’m sure Trump is aware of where every ship is every second of the day especially during a Major pandemic!

Well stated. Brevity is an art taught in military courses such as Command and General Staff and the War College. So is sarcasm but I subscribe to the thought that is an innate skill that separates a JAG from a civilian lawyer. Present the facts, review the UCMJ and act accordingly. Over and done with and carry on. Sometimes we do need the REMFs but not often...even though it takes 100 Combat Support and Combat Service Support REMFs to properly support one infantryman...

How many SEALs on a carrier? The carrier has a new commander and is functioning. Read the after-action report when it's made public in a couple of years.

Well yes the carrier does have a new acting commander but it is currently out of commission and not functioning because 90% of the crew is under quarantine on Guam as the ship is being disinfected. Kind of like what it’s former commander had recommended to be done.

 

[Dillon]

I’m sure Trump is aware of where every ship is every second of the day especially during a Major pandemic!

Well stated. Brevity is an art taught in military courses such as Command and General Staff and the War College. So is sarcasm but I subscribe to the thought that is an innate skill that separates a JAG from a civilian lawyer. Present the facts, review the UCMJ and act accordingly. Over and done with and carry on. Sometimes we do need the REMFs but not often...even though it takes 100 Combat Support and Combat Service Support REMFs to properly support one infantryman...

How many SEALs on a carrier? The carrier has a new commander and is functioning. Read the after-action report when it's made public in a couple of years.

Well yes the carrier does have a new acting commander but it is currently out of commission and not functioning because 90% of the crew is under quarantine on Guam as the ship is being disinfected. Kind of like what it’s former commander had recommended to be done.

But it was the captains decision to allow his sailors off the ship in the first place not Trumps!