our football program: prisoner of nepotism

[George Ferguson]

griz4life, it was 5700. My bad on that.

 

[grizophile]

Well, looking ahead, who is a good HC candidate from outside the MT gene pool?

I've seen Dan Hawkins name thrown around a few times. Is he damaged goods or what? He probably deserves another chance, no?

no

 

[PlayerRep]

sorta like the beltway in politics, a clubby inborn group that looks out for itself rather than the best interests of the football program and the fans, with its own shills to tell us that today is okay and tomorrow will be better.

engstrom: it all starts at the top. a nationwide search for a president and all they could find was a provost down the hall. some search! when the decisions were made to fire o'day and pflugrad, i figured there was a lot i didn't know, other shoes to drop. these months later, i still don't understand that decision--one hugely detrimental to the football program. the first rule of decison-making is, consider the consequences. i don't think engstrom ever did.

delaney: nice montana-bred guy that was hired as a running backs coach but nobody ever thought was head-coaching material. kudos to him for steering the program through troubled times, but i don't think there's anybody on this board except the most maroon of shills that thinks he's the one to return us to national prominence.

scott gragg: next head coach? great montana pedigree, maybe the best player montana has turned out in a quarter of a century. but does that qualify you to be a head coach?

player rep: loves being the ivy-educated insider from his ivory-tower box. in washington, he'd be a lobbyist, available to the highest bidder. in montana, he's just the first-line critic of any critic, always defending the status quo, the shill of shills.

wahlberg: i dearly love this guy, and what he's done for the football program. i relish his reports, passion and knowledge, and wish the basketball program had a wahlberg. but given his status and connections within the program, does he have what it takes to see that this program as now consititued cannot vie for a national championship, and to make the critical judgments to get us back to elite status?

mick: great voice, good technique, but the homer of homers. like so many associated with the montana football program, he exemplifies our current malaise:

always for the "good guys," but not for the "best guys."

Citay - totally agree on the coaching thing, but everybody seems to think it's "okay." Funny story though, the last 2 times the Griz have hired a football coach away from the inner circle of Montana brothers?...national championships with Don Read and Joe Glenn.

I take it that you don't know that Joe Glenn had previously been an assistant coach at UM for 5 or 6 years?

 

[citygriz]

sorta like the beltway in politics, a clubby inborn group that looks out for itself rather than the best interests of the football program and the fans, with its own shills to tell us that today is okay and tomorrow will be better.

engstrom: it all starts at the top. a nationwide search for a president and all they could find was a provost down the hall. some search! when the decisions were made to fire o'day and pflugrad, i figured there was a lot i didn't know, other shoes to drop. these months later, i still don't understand that decision--one hugely detrimental to the football program. the first rule of decison-making is, consider the consequences. i don't think engstrom ever did.

delaney: nice montana-bred guy that was hired as a running backs coach but nobody ever thought was head-coaching material. kudos to him for steering the program through troubled times, but i don't think there's anybody on this board except the most maroon of shills that thinks he's the one to return us to national prominence.

scott gragg: next head coach? great montana pedigree, maybe the best player montana has turned out in a quarter of a century. but does that qualify you to be a head coach?

player rep: loves being the ivy-educated insider from his ivory-tower box. in washington, he'd be a lobbyist, available to the highest bidder. in montana, he's just the first-line critic of any critic, always defending the status quo, the shill of shills.

wahlberg: i dearly love this guy, and what he's done for the football program. i relish his reports, passion and knowledge, and wish the basketball program had a wahlberg. but given his status and connections within the program, does he have what it takes to see that this program as now consititued cannot vie for a national championship, and to make the critical judgments to get us back to elite status?

mick: great voice, good technique, but the homer of homers. like so many associated with the montana football program, he exemplifies our current malaise:

always for the "good guys," but not for the "best guys."

Citay - totally agree on the coaching thing, but everybody seems to think it's "okay." Funny story though, the last 2 times the Griz have hired a football coach away from the inner circle of Montana brothers?...national championships with Don Read and Joe Glenn.

I take it that you don't know that Joe Glenn had previously been an assistant coach at UM for 5 or 6 years?

take it to the bank that i did know that. under larry donovan.

when we hired joe glenn, he was a 51-year-old head coach at northern colorado who had won two division two championships for the bears. at montana, he would win another national championship, and be deprived of a second title by some absolutely stupid coaching down the stretch against georgia southern, a game we should have won.

when we hired mick delaney, he was a 70-year old running backs coach coming out of retirement. head coaching experience? two years at western montana some twenty years prior to that. in his two years as head coach at montana, not only has it been proven that we have no shot whatever at a national championship, we are no longer the premier program in the big sky conferece.

big picture, player rep. big picture!

 

[AZGrizFan]

sorta like the beltway in politics, a clubby inborn group that looks out for itself rather than the best interests of the football program and the fans, with its own shills to tell us that today is okay and tomorrow will be better.

Citay - totally agree on the coaching thing, but everybody seems to think it's "okay." Funny story though, the last 2 times the Griz have hired a football coach away from the inner circle of Montana brothers?...national championships with Don Read and Joe Glenn.

I take it that you don't know that Joe Glenn had previously been an assistant coach at UM for 5 or 6 years?

take it to the bank that i did know that. under larry donovan.

when we hired joe glenn, he was a 51-year-old head coach at northern colorado who had won two division two championships for the bears. at montana, he would win another national championship, and be deprived of a second title by some absolutely stupid coaching down the stretch against georgia southern, a game we should have won.

How does that make him NOT part of the "inner circle" then?

 

[MrTitleist]

Someone get Rob Akey on the phone.

 

[funny water]

i'm hopeful Jason Garrett will be on the market soon.... :evil: but don't want to see him on the Griz sideline either....

 

[tnt]

big picture, player rep. big picture!

The Big picture is no such thing as an "outside hire" EVER. Either you are inside somehow some way or you don't get hired. Even Don Read had inside connections. The only people screaming about outside hires are those who are way outside and don't understand that every University System (including athletic departments) is nothing more than very closely guarded social system that either you are in or you are out of. Its also a system largely financed by those wanting in so bad that they will write large checks to get in. They never realize like many athletic boosters that they are tolerated as long as the checks keep coming, but the when the checks stop, nobody remembers who they were.

That's the way the real world works as well. Somebody knows somebody or there is a common connection. Its not always apparent to the outsiders.

 

[SaskGriz]

Does anybody know of a website that compares FCS coaching salaries, I can find tons of stuff on the FBS but not having much luck.

 

[getgrizzy]

Man, it really sucks when we are essentially talking about three years out. A new coach is going to take a year minimum to implement his system. Likely we are talking four to five years out. We should start a move up thread.

good post. i'm not surprised no one commented on it, because its so true. our current problems have little to do with nepotism and a lot to do with poor decisions by players and coaches. we had a window opportunity with some decent talent, but it didn't materialize. these next 3-5 years will be rough. the good news is our six-year battles with legal, internal and n.c.a.a. appear to be behind us. once we put some distance between that and the character of coaches and players we have we'll start to rise up to where we once were.

 

[GrizDDS]

Are there any other examples of interim coaches coaching for 3+ seasons? I don't know of one. It's a weird situation. People talk about a coaching change being hard on recruiting, but I can't imagine it's easy for a player to commit to a program and coach when he knows with probably 90% certainty that the HC that is recruiting him won't be the HC he graduates with. Unless, of course, they are telling recruits that one of the current staff is a "HC in waiting" and there won't be significant changes over the next 5 years which is a little concerning, IMO.

 

[getgrizzy]

Are there any other examples of interim coaches coaching for 3+ seasons? I don't know of one. It's a weird situation. People talk about a coaching change being hard on recruiting, but I can't imagine it's easy for a player to commit to a program and coach when he knows with probably 90% certainty that the HC that is recruiting him won't be the HC he graduates with. Unless, of course, they are telling recruits that one of the current staff is a "HC in waiting" and there won't be significant changes over the next 5 years which is a little concerning, IMO.

not that I know of. i like delaney and what he's doing so far, but the uncertainty of him being the coach for long is one of a handful of things working against us right now. probation, scholarship reductions, lack of returning quality players, reputation being the others.

 

[PlayerRep]

Are there any other examples of interim coaches coaching for 3+ seasons? I don't know of one. It's a weird situation. People talk about a coaching change being hard on recruiting, but I can't imagine it's easy for a player to commit to a program and coach when he knows with probably 90% certainty that the HC that is recruiting him won't be the HC he graduates with. Unless, of course, they are telling recruits that one of the current staff is a "HC in waiting" and there won't be significant changes over the next 5 years which is a little concerning, IMO.

Delaney is not the interim coach. He had that title only for several months. I understand some of your point, but coaches often don't stay for another 5 years after a kid is recruited. It was rumored for several years that Hauck might be leaving. This happens frequently. Other schools can point out Delaney's age, etc. and try to take advantage of it, of course. Heck, maybe it's a positive for some kids that Delaney probably won't be around in 5 years. Ha.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Are there any other examples of interim coaches coaching for 3+ seasons? I don't know of one. It's a weird situation. People talk about a coaching change being hard on recruiting, but I can't imagine it's easy for a player to commit to a program and coach when he knows with probably 90% certainty that the HC that is recruiting him won't be the HC he graduates with. Unless, of course, they are telling recruits that one of the current staff is a "HC in waiting" and there won't be significant changes over the next 5 years which is a little concerning, IMO.

not that I know of. i like delaney and what he's doing so far, but the uncertainty of him being the coach for long is one of a handful of things working against us right now. probation, scholarship reductions, lack of returning quality players, reputation being the others.

EVERY coach is just one bad season away from being fired, or one GOOD season away from being wooed by a bigger school. Uncertainty exists at every university.....hell Alabama thought Nick Fricking Saban was leaving...wonder if that stopped any of their recruits from committing?

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Well, looking ahead, who is a good HC candidate from outside the MT gene pool?

I've seen Dan Hawkins name thrown around a few times. Is he damaged goods or what? He probably deserves another chance, no?

Hawkins is pretty polarizing. I was not a fan of his when I live in Denver, while he coached the Buffs.

Go play intramurals, brother.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Does anybody know of a website that compares FCS coaching salaries, I can find tons of stuff on the FBS but not having much luck.

If the school is public, you can find out. A lot of newspapers publish a yearly report of state employee salaries. You can search the databases for the coach's name. This one is for California, but I know I've seen Washington and Oregon before.

http://www.sacbee.com/statepay/

 

[NativeGriz]

engstrom: it all starts at the top. a nationwide search for a president and all they could find was a provost down the hall. some search! when the decisions were made to fire o'day and pflugrad, i figured there was a lot i didn't know, other shoes to drop. these months later, i still don't understand that decision--one hugely detrimental to the football program. the first rule of decison-making is, consider the consequences. i don't think engstrom ever did.

delaney: nice montana-bred guy that was hired as a running backs coach but nobody ever thought was head-coaching material. kudos to him for steering the program through troubled times, but i don't think there's anybody on this board except the most maroon of shills that thinks he's the one to return us to national prominence.



Excellent post, especially above.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Well, looking ahead, who is a good HC candidate from outside the MT gene pool?

I've seen Dan Hawkins name thrown around a few times. Is he damaged goods or what? He probably deserves another chance, no?

Hawkins is pretty polarizing. I was not a fan of his when I live in Denver, while he coached the Buffs.

Go play intramurals, brother.

:lol: :lol:

THIS IS DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL!!! :lol:

 

[griz4life]

engstrom: it all starts at the top. a nationwide search for a president and all they could find was a provost down the hall. some search! when the decisions were made to fire o'day and pflugrad, i figured there was a lot i didn't know, other shoes to drop. these months later, i still don't understand that decision--one hugely detrimental to the football program. the first rule of decison-making is, consider the consequences. i don't think engstrom ever did.

delaney: nice montana-bred guy that was hired as a running backs coach but nobody ever thought was head-coaching material. kudos to him for steering the program through troubled times, but i don't think there's anybody on this board except the most maroon of shills that thinks he's the one to return us to national prominence.



Excellent post, especially above.

Here's the rub: Over at MSU, saddled with the same salary limitations, the university is snagging some great talent outside of athletics right now. I think Tim Cramsey will prove to be a good hire in another year, too. But I suspect when MSU hires its next head coach there it will debunk some some of "aw shucks, we're too poor to hire good talent" bs that Missoulians chew like old bubblegum.
I spend some time at both schools. I never hear anyone at MSU talk about being too poor to hire good help.

 

[NativeGriz]

engstrom: it all starts at the top. a nationwide search for a president and all they could find was a provost down the hall. some search! when the decisions were made to fire o'day and pflugrad, i figured there was a lot i didn't know, other shoes to drop. these months later, i still don't understand that decision--one hugely detrimental to the football program. the first rule of decison-making is, consider the consequences. i don't think engstrom ever did.

delaney: nice montana-bred guy that was hired as a running backs coach but nobody ever thought was head-coaching material. kudos to him for steering the program through troubled times, but i don't think there's anybody on this board except the most maroon of shills that thinks he's the one to return us to national prominence.


Excellent post, especially above.

Here's the rub: Over at MSU, saddled with the same salary limitations, the university is snagging some great talent outside of athletics right now. I think Tim Cramsey will prove to be a good hire in another year, too. But I suspect when MSU hires its next head coach there it will debunk some some of "aw shucks, we're too poor to hire good talent" bs that Missoulians chew like old bubblegum.
I spend some time at both schools. I never hear anyone at MSU talk about being too poor to hire good help.

I agree and there are other reasons to come coach football in Montana. MSU has done an excellent job of creating a positive environment. It starts with their president. But there is also the old saying you get what you pay for.