Kick It on 4th Down Crowd Gets Their Wish

[Potomac Griz]

It was 4th and 1, with 5.5 minutes to go. Momentum with with UM. If UM picks up the first down, which I believe would have been likely, and scores a TD, then they are down only 4 or 3.

Agreed. The way we were moving the ball and the fact we had all the momentum I felt a lot more confident in going for it on 4th and 1 than kicking the FG.

 

[Mr. Greenjeans]

PR, Griz went for a field goal on 4th down when they were down by 11 points with 7 or 8 or so minutes left in the game. They needed both a TD with two point conversion and a field goal to tie the game, and the field goal was right there. Clearly there was a greater chance of kicking the field goal than going for a 4th and long for a first down.

The fact that their kicker missed the field goal does not make that a poor coaching decision. Coach Delaney made the right decision in going for the field goal in that situation. It’s too bad the kicker missed it.

If the kicker had made the field goal Griz would have been within a TD and two point conversion of tying the game. If they went for it on 4th down and did not make the 1st down they would be down by 11 points with time running out, which is the same place they were in after missing the field goal -(which again they should have made).

The lesson in all of this is that the Griz need a better (i.e., more reliable) kicker. Your argument that the Griz should always try to get the first down, is bolstered when the Griz kicker sucks. I don't think our kicker sucks that bad yet. He makes more than he misses.

good post, the whole go for it/kick it argument is highly colored by the result of the play. I think we need some sort of eGriz app that records our opinion before the play, then we can argue about without the bias of knowing what happens.

This is absolutely true and why so many coaches play it safe, not using logic but using "conventional" wisdom which has been found to have a lack of logic. The result is not an absolute either way, good coaches will look at the probability of success in any given situation, it won't always work, but if it works more often than not you have to be aggressive.

It's why baseball managers will save their "closer" for the 9th inning when they will face the heart of the other teams order in the 8th inning. They do this universally because of a useless stat that is the save. High leverage situation, use your best pitcher and give yourself the best chance to win. It's that simple.

 

[mcg]

PR, Griz went for a field goal on 4th down when they were down by 11 points with 7 or 8 or so minutes left in the game. They needed both a TD with two point conversion and a field goal to tie the game, and the field goal was right there. Clearly there was a greater chance of kicking the field goal than going for a 4th and long for a first down.

The fact that their kicker missed the field goal does not make that a poor coaching decision. Coach Delaney made the right decision in going for the field goal in that situation. It’s too bad the kicker missed it.

If the kicker had made the field goal Griz would have been within a TD and two point conversion of tying the game. If they went for it on 4th down and did not make the 1st down they would be down by 11 points with time running out, which is the same place they were in after missing the field goal -(which again they should have made).



The lesson in all of this is that the Griz need a better (i.e., more reliable) kicker. Your argument that the Griz should always try to get the first down, is bolstered when the Griz kicker sucks. I don't think our kicker sucks that bad yet. He makes more than he misses.

It's not that simple. You should be able to make 4th and less than 1 most of the time, unless its the Jags vs the Steel Curtain. We in fact went for it in a longer yardage situation last week vs Cal Poly, you have to calculate your odds. Making it and going for two makes it possible to tie with a long FG on a subsequent possession. We were coming from way behind after a sad performance and went conservative...at home.

NFL coaches go all conservative like this and lose all the time. If you can't gain 1 yard at home in this situation, you deserve to lose but you should at least give yourself the best chance (unlikely given the points we were behind) to win and that wasn't it.

Actually NFL coaches lose exactly (precisely) half the time, conservative or not.

 

[putter]

PR, Griz went for a field goal on 4th down when they were down by 11 points with 7 or 8 or so minutes left in the game. They needed both a TD with two point conversion and a field goal to tie the game, and the field goal was right there. Clearly there was a greater chance of kicking the field goal than going for a 4th and long for a first down.

The fact that their kicker missed the field goal does not make that a poor coaching decision. Coach Delaney made the right decision in going for the field goal in that situation. It’s too bad the kicker missed it.

If the kicker had made the field goal Griz would have been within a TD and two point conversion of tying the game. If they went for it on 4th down and did not make the 1st down they would be down by 11 points with time running out, which is the same place they were in after missing the field goal -(which again they should have made).


The lesson in all of this is that the Griz need a better (i.e., more reliable) kicker. Your argument that the Griz should always try to get the first down, is bolstered when the Griz kicker sucks. I don't think our kicker sucks that bad yet. He makes more than he misses.

It's not that simple. You should be able to make 4th and less than 1 most of the time, unless its the Jags vs the Steel Curtain. We in fact went for it in a longer yardage situation last week vs Cal Poly, you have to calculate your odds. Making it and going for two makes it possible to tie with a long FG on a subsequent possession. We were coming from way behind after a sad performance and went conservative...at home.

NFL coaches go all conservative like this and lose all the time. If you can't gain 1 yard at home in this situation, you deserve to lose but you should at least give yourself the best chance (unlikely given the points we were behind) to win and that wasn't it.

Griz have not been able to run on anyone, for 1 yard or 10. Montana ran 8 straight pass plays against Poly inside their 5 yard line last week. Face it, either Gregg needs to coach them up or they need to execute because the coaching staff has 0 confidence in the O-Line right now. If they did, they would be pounding it at people with Counts for that 1 or 2 yards.

 

[mcg]

I wonder if executing well whatever choice is made is more important than the choice itself.

 

[justanotherfan]

Are you happy now? Is this what you have wanted all along? Were you not warned that FG's are not automatic?

The wish is that you don't spend the next 2 years defending your bad judgement for defending the bonehead NAU 4th down call.

 

[signedbewildered]

It was 4th and 1, with 5.5 minutes to go. Momentum with with UM. If UM picks up the first down, which I believe would have been likely, and scores a TD, then they are down only 4 or 3.

Agreed. The way we were moving the ball and the fact we had all the momentum I felt a lot more confident in going for it on 4th and 1 than kicking the FG.

Ditto, and not just because we missed the FG.

 

[NativeGriz]

I was one of those whom felt the Griz should have kicked FGs, but that is early in games. Not late in the game when you are down by 11 and you only need a yard for a first down. Everyone in our section was going..WTF... Even if we made the FG, I felt that was the wrong call at that point in the game.
But then I also felt the EW coach was an idiot for passing the ball as much as he did late in the game.

 

[mtgriz]

From a game management perspective, I agreed with going for the FG there. I agreed with going for the field goal on our first possesion also.

I like the run it up the gut plays, even when they don't garner yards. They are just part of the puzzle that you make the defense solve on every play. One of the Griz touchdowns came on a long run that started up the gut. EWU almost lost this game late because they have no running game.

Frankly I thought it was a great game, well coached and played. Don't lose sight of the fact that a lot of the bad plays by one team were as much or more good plays on the opposite side of the ball.

Two highly ranked teams slugged it out for four quarters. The game came down to about 5 or 6 plays that EWU made and the Griz didn't.

I would take the Griz in a possible playoff rematch.

 

[TxGriz]

If it was known at that point that they would need a 2 point conversion, why didn't they try it on the conversion that got flagged and moved half the distance to the goal? Why re-kick? Did they have the option to decline the penalty and take the extra point? I was baffled at that one, but i was screaming at the TV to go for 2 then.

 

[Copper Griz]

For someone who has played the game - you should know that not going for it on 4th down did not lose the game. Maybe the fumble, mismatched coverages and defensive schemes, inability to run the ball, penalties, o-line struggling, etc. - might have had something to do with the loss. To debate one aspect of this teams performance as if it were the achilles heal of the game - is senseless. You are correct about one thing, the coaching decisions are very poor right now. Regardless if it is deciding to go for it on fourth down or not. If I was going to make an argument about why the Griz failed to win yesterday, it would be the running game and the coaches inability to adapt and make adjustments. Even a novice like me could figure out you need to abandon running up the middle time after time.

 

[mtgrizfankb]

You guys are idiots. Kicking the ball was the right call. Brings you to 8. With 5+ left it gives your d a few sets to get a t.o or force a 3&out. If we go for it and have to kick a fieldgoal anyway. The you have 8 pts with 3+ mins. If you do score a td that's awesome but our coaches played the clock and made the correct call intact that games was 100% different if he makes that.

 

[ranco]

PR, you are a complete 'tard. I realize you are just trolling, but Delaney lacks the ability to make the right call at the right time. The quicker he retires the better off we will be.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

You guys are idiots. Kicking the ball was the right call. Brings you to 8. With 5+ left it gives your d a few sets to get a t.o or force a 3&out. If we go for it and have to kick a fieldgoal anyway. The you have 8 pts with 3+ mins. If you do score a td that's awesome but our coaches played the clock and made the correct call intact that games was 100% different if he makes that.

Especially since it was 4th and 8.

 

[NLGrizFan]

Are you happy now? Is this what you have wanted all along? Were you not warned that FG's are not automatic?

I agree 100%. Everyone bitched about it now they got it.

 

[PlayerRep]

For someone who has played the game - you should know that not going for it on 4th down did not lose the game. Maybe the fumble, mismatched coverages and defensive schemes, inability to run the ball, penalties, o-line struggling, etc. - might have had something to do with the loss. To debate one aspect of this teams performance as if it were the achilles heal of the game - is senseless. You are correct about one thing, the coaching decisions are very poor right now. Regardless if it is deciding to go for it on fourth down or not. If I was going to make an argument about why the Griz failed to win yesterday, it would be the running game and the coaches inability to adapt and make adjustments. Even a novice like me could figure out you need to abandon running up the middle time after time.

Don't know if you are talking to me, but I didn't say that the call had anything to do with the game result. Neither in this thread nor in my other thread that listed important plays.

I was discussing the call only, and pointing out exactly what the thread title said. Maybe you should taking some reading lessons.

 

[PlayerRep]

PR, Griz went for a field goal on 4th down when they were down by 11 points with 7 or 8 or so minutes left in the game. They needed both a TD with two point conversion and a field goal to tie the game, and the field goal was right there. Clearly there was a greater chance of kicking the field goal than going for a 4th and long for a first down.

The fact that their kicker missed the field goal does not make that a poor coaching decision. Coach Delaney made the right decision in going for the field goal in that situation. It’s too bad the kicker missed it.

If the kicker had made the field goal Griz would have been within a TD and two point conversion of tying the game. If they went for it on 4th down and did not make the 1st down they would be down by 11 points with time running out, which is the same place they were in after missing the field goal -(which again they should have made).


The lesson in all of this is that the Griz need a better (i.e., more reliable) kicker. Your argument that the Griz should always try to get the first down, is bolstered when the Griz kicker sucks. I don't think our kicker sucks that bad yet. He makes more than he misses.

It's not that simple. You should be able to make 4th and less than 1 most of the time, unless its the Jags vs the Steel Curtain. We in fact went for it in a longer yardage situation last week vs Cal Poly, you have to calculate your odds. Making it and going for two makes it possible to tie with a long FG on a subsequent possession. We were coming from way behind after a sad performance and went conservative...at home.

NFL coaches go all conservative like this and lose all the time. If you can't gain 1 yard at home in this situation, you deserve to lose but you should at least give yourself the best chance (unlikely given the points we were behind) to win and that wasn't it.

Griz have not been able to run on anyone, for 1 yard or 10. Montana ran 8 straight pass plays against Poly inside their 5 yard line last week. Face it, either Gregg needs to coach them up or they need to execute because the coaching staff has 0 confidence in the O-Line right now. If they did, they would be pounding it at people with Counts for that 1 or 2 yards.

Counts? Are you aware that he got hurt during the game yesterday and then on crutches?

 

[Robsnotes4u]

You guys are idiots. Kicking the ball was the right call. Brings you to 8. With 5+ left it gives your d a few sets to get a t.o or force a 3&out. If we go for it and have to kick a fieldgoal anyway. The you have 8 pts with 3+ mins. If you do score a td that's awesome but our coaches played the clock and made the correct call intact that games was 100% different if he makes that.

Correct, one possession game versus a two possession game. Which would you rather have with 5 minutes less? It is a no brainier, especially with the way EWU can move the ball.


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[stubbins]

Gotta go for it. If you can score a td and then fail on the two point, you know what you have to get. And...the way they were moving the ball, if you can hold them to a field goal, you still are within one score. Boneheaded call, but then again, I didn't have the inside info that we needed 8 yds.

Just another fuck up in a long line of fuck ups...

Like it was said earlier....no brainer.

 

[Robsnotes4u]

Gotta go for it. If you can score a td and then fail on the two point, you know what you have to get. And...the way they were moving the ball, if you can hold them to a field goal, you still are within one score. Boneheaded call, but then again, I didn't have the inside info that we needed 8 yds.

Just another f*** up in a long line of f*** ups...

Like it was said earlier....no brainer.

Never thought of it that way, hmm. Thanks. Your new egriz name is Yoda


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