Judge Compels State to Turnover JJ Records

[gotgame75]

There is a rumor that the author is aware of and wants a long memo written by counsel for the university system outlining the unfair process and mistakes made by the dean and the university in the university proceeding, and the resultant potential liability for the university. If this memo exists and this is what it says, it was probably the reason the university allowed the student to stay in school and stay on scholarship after the university proceeding went against him and his appeals were apparently lost. It would likely also be the basis for the rumored claim that may be brought against the university by the student.

+1

 

[kemajic]

Engstrom's actions need to be revealed for what they were. He completely folded in the face of pressure from the Justice Department and the media and nearly ruined a student's life in the process. That's without even mentioning his complete ignorance of basic constitutional rights. You have to love what passes for "leadership" at UM these days.

Never, ever underestimate the pressure applied by the female faculty.

 

[rimrockgriz]

Any way you look at this, I believe it is weighing on JJ's mind or subconscience. It could explain why JJ is not himself this year...

I think you just finished painting your boat and the marine grade fumes were inhaled... :egriz:

 

[horribilisfan8184]

Seems to me Paoli did something in federal court wanting these records released or made public, so the public could see how JJ was railroaded by the U in the student disciplilne arena. While I'm sure he'd prefer this all go away, instead of being bothered, JJ may be sitting back laughing his a** off, knowing this might take RE and his Admin down.

 

[grizpack]

Wait until after the season until about September 2015 for the real fireworks.

This. I am betting it is going to get really interesting between the final game of this season, and about May 1 of 2015. Just sayin.......

 

[nzone]

If what some are saying is true I'm thinking Royce should resign.

 

[Griz90]

I really don't think this will, or should, affect Jordan Johnson in any way other than to further exonerate him. This clearly looks like an investigation into the process and actions that the university took during this troubling time in UM history and as an outsider looking in it sure smelled fishy from start to finish and my best guess is it will reveal that JJ got the shaft and this thing should have never went to trial. Thankfully, the justice system prevailed in the end.

 

[poorgriz]

What I want to know is, what were the ramifications for this girl that screwed up his life with her lies? If nothing, why not? I understand about just wanting to get this nightmare over with and move on, but if a girl accused me of rape and put me through all this - I would flip out and go after her with a vengeance.

 

[Jerry Punch]

Nobody here knows what book the author plans to write, probably including the author himself in as much as he hasn't seen the material he asked for. Don't whine until the glass is poured. JJ may be portrayed as a scapegoat for all we know.

Anything is possible but odds are 25 to 1 that the author intends to write a book portraying athletes as a protected class getting away with murder.

Doubt it.

It would seem that most likely it will be a collection of investigations into the vast array of inconsistencies of how campuses handle sexual assault charges. Krakauer is an incredibly good investigative journalist. I would expect the book to be more of a showing how campuses poorly handle assault charges that has lead to harming the victims, bypassing due process for the accused, and inconsistently handling charges.

Brint, I agree with you to a certain extent because it is entirely possible that this is his objective. However, I also know that Into the Wild was not as well received or appreciated in Alaska because it seemed to glorify a kid who was trying to make a statement but ultimately died because he wasn't prepared for the wilderness.

The link from that book to whatever book could come out of this are tenuous from what we know now, but not everyone has always appreciated what Krakauer does, especially on a local level.

That being said, I think the university has some explaining to do not just from the Johnson incident but from the Donaldson incident and the Saudi rapist incident. Not all cases involved football players, which really underscores how bad an argument it is that UM is protecting its athletes at the expense of due process. I think the biggest problem is that UM was trying to win a public relations campaign and they took widely inconsistent approaches to achieve those victories in each case. It is my opinion that UM took each incident on a case by case basis and tried to figure out what the most popular move would be. If I'm a student at UM, that scares the hell out of me whether I'm a football player or not. I hope this is the focus of the book, as you think it will be, Brint.

 

[getgrizzy]

Nobody here knows what book the author plans to write, probably including the author himself in as much as he hasn't seen the material he asked for. Don't whine until the glass is poured. JJ may be portrayed as a scapegoat for all we know.

Anything is possible but odds are 25 to 1 that the author intends to write a book portraying athletes as a protected class getting away with murder.

Doubt it.

It would seem that most likely it will be a collection of investigations into the vast array of inconsistencies of how campuses handle sexual assault charges. Krakauer is an incredibly good investigative journalist. I would expect the book to be more of a showing how campuses poorly handle assault charges that has lead to harming the victims, bypassing due process for the accused, and inconsistently handling charges.

Brint, I agree with you to a certain extent because it is entirely possible that this is his objective. However, I also know that Into the Wild was not as well received or appreciated in Alaska because it seemed to glorify a kid who was trying to make a statement but ultimately died because he wasn't prepared for the wilderness.

The link from that book to whatever book could come out of this are tenuous from what we know now, but not everyone has always appreciated what Krakauer does, especially on a local level.

That being said, I think the university has some explaining to do not just from the Johnson incident but from the Donaldson incident and the Saudi rapist incident. Not all cases involved football players, which really underscores how bad an argument it is that UM is protecting its athletes at the expense of due process. I think the biggest problem is that UM was trying to win a public relations campaign and they took widely inconsistent approaches to achieve those victories in each case. It is my opinion that UM took each incident on a case by case basis and tried to figure out what the most popular move would be. If I'm a student at UM, that scares the hell out of me whether I'm a football player or not. I hope this is the focus of the book, as you think it will be, Brint.

chris mccandless was very prepared for life in the wilderness and would've easily survived had he not made the error of mistaking one variety of seed for another. the two seeds were nearly identical, so that mistake had little to do with his knowledge. the alaskans you speak of are pissed because what mccandless correctly identified as a moose was wrongly called a caribou by the "experienced local hunters". someone tried to claim that the seeds weren't at fault as mccandless said in his journal and krakauer agreed with, but they were proven correct recently.
krakauer is an expert investigator and writer by any measure.

 

[griz4life]

Having seen this story go through the news cycle several times now, it bothers me that allegations Johnson faced before a disciplinary panel are referred to as a "case" and that the panel "found Johnson guilty." That language suggests the proceeding and the conclusion of the panel are part of a the U.S. judicial system, which it isn't.

Furthermore, I don't it's right to suggest the disciplinary panel issued a finding of guilt. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think using the "preponderance of evidence" standard that UM adopted, the conclusion by the panel is that something was either likely or unlikely to have occurred.
By throwing around a "finding of guilt" the press is giving more weight to the panel conclusion than is really there.

The other twist in this story is that the commissioner is not waiting for an assurance from the federal department of education that the school isn't violating FERPA by complying with the judge's order. Really? This FOIA has been going on for months and the feds still haven't responded to the commissioner's request?
The Department of Education jumped all over UM, demanded concessions that quite honestly violate the constitutional rights of teachers and students and now it can't be bothered with a quick response? This is the federal government at its dysfunctional worst.

 

[Jerry Punch]

"I’ve received thousands of letters from people who admire McCandless for his rejection of conformity and materialism in order to discover what was authentic and what was not, to test himself, to experience the raw throb of life without a safety net. But I’ve also received plenty of mail from people who think he was an idiot who came to grief because he was arrogant, woefully unprepared, mentally unbalanced, and possibly suicidal. Most of these detractors believe my book glorifies a senseless death."

This is from an article in the New Yorker last year, written by Krakauer. I think that appropriately summarizes the split of opinion on his writing. My point was to suggest that not everyone will warmly receive what Krakauer does with this new information.

 

[NorthEndZoneDan]

Anything is possible but odds are 25 to 1 that the author intends to write a book portraying athletes as a protected class getting away with murder.

Doubt it.

It would seem that most likely it will be a collection of investigations into the vast array of inconsistencies of how campuses handle sexual assault charges. Krakauer is an incredibly good investigative journalist. I would expect the book to be more of a showing how campuses poorly handle assault charges that has lead to harming the victims, bypassing due process for the accused, and inconsistently handling charges.

Brint, I agree with you to a certain extent because it is entirely possible that this is his objective. However, I also know that Into the Wild was not as well received or appreciated in Alaska because it seemed to glorify a kid who was trying to make a statement but ultimately died because he wasn't prepared for the wilderness.

The link from that book to whatever book could come out of this are tenuous from what we know now, but not everyone has always appreciated what Krakauer does, especially on a local level.

That being said, I think the university has some explaining to do not just from the Johnson incident but from the Donaldson incident and the Saudi rapist incident. Not all cases involved football players, which really underscores how bad an argument it is that UM is protecting its athletes at the expense of due process. I think the biggest problem is that UM was trying to win a public relations campaign and they took widely inconsistent approaches to achieve those victories in each case. It is my opinion that UM took each incident on a case by case basis and tried to figure out what the most popular move would be. If I'm a student at UM, that scares the hell out of me whether I'm a football player or not. I hope this is the focus of the book, as you think it will be, Brint.

chris mccandless was very prepared for life in the wilderness and would've easily survived had he not made the error of mistaking one variety of seed for another. the two seeds were nearly identical, so that mistake had little to do with his knowledge. the alaskans you speak of are pissed because what mccandless correctly identified as a moose was wrongly called a caribou by the "experienced local hunters". someone tried to claim that the seeds weren't at fault as mccandless said in his journal and krakauer agreed with, but they were proven correct recently.
krakauer is an expert investigator and writer by any measure.

No. I was working in Denali at the time Into the Wild was released. It was all the rage of talk at Lynx Creek Bar and while the topic of the mistaken animal identity arose once or twice it was not the bulk of what people were unhappy about. This was not the Alaskan wilderness or even remote bush country, and the locals knew it. This played out in an abandoned school bus. Think about that. Somebody drove that school bus down the road and left it there. This is not the Alaskan wilderness or the Alaskan bush, not even remotely close, that was painted by the author. The locals knew that in spades.

 

[PlayerRep]

Interesting decision. Surprises me. I can't imagine that release of this type of information, without the consent of the interested party, doesn't violate federal student privacy law. JJ seems to be an incredibly mentally tough person, but it must be disappointing and distracting for this subject to be brought up again, and to have his photos and name splashed all over the media again.

 

[horribilisfan8184]

Interesting decision. Surprises me. I can't imagine that release of this type of information, without the consent of the interested party, doesn't violate federal student privacy law. JJ seems to be an incredibly mentally tough person, but it must be disappointing and distracting for this subject to be brought up again, and to have his photos and name splashed all over the media again.

I agree. We hear all the time about politcians who have their college records sealed that oppositon parties and the national media can't seem to bust open.

 

[tnt]

Having seen this story go through the news cycle several times now, it bothers me that allegations Johnson faced before a disciplinary panel are referred to as a "case" and that the panel "found Johnson guilty." That language suggests the proceeding and the conclusion of the panel are part of a the U.S. judicial system, which it isn't.

Furthermore, I don't it's right to suggest the disciplinary panel issued a finding of guilt. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think using the "preponderance of evidence" standard that UM adopted, the conclusion by the panel is that something was either likely or unlikely to have occurred.
By throwing around a "finding of guilt" the press is giving more weight to the panel conclusion than is really there.

The other twist in this story is that the commissioner is not waiting for an assurance from the federal department of education that the school isn't violating FERPA by complying with the judge's order. Really? This FOIA has been going on for months and the feds still haven't responded to the commissioner's request?
The Department of Education jumped all over UM, demanded concessions that quite honestly violate the constitutional rights of teachers and students and now it can't be bothered with a quick response? This is the federal government at its dysfunctional worst.

A female district court Judge with an agenda? Never.

McRae said the commissioner’s office won’t release the records without calling in legal experts from the U.S. Department of Education for a closer review of Seeley’s order and the potential ramifications.

McRae said the state cannot risk violating the federal Family Education Rights and Privacy Act. Doing so could cost Montana students millions of dollars in educational grants, he said.

“Over the 30 days, we will be analyzing the judge’s order, in consultation with the U.S. Department of Education, to determine whether the instructions in that order comply with FERPA,” McRae said. “We have to make sure we’re protecting student privacy. The cost of violating that is severe.”

“We did expect it as a possibility,” McRae said. “Any time there’s a contested case of any kind, we realize the decision will be made in one direction or another. We need something official from DOE saying we’re not exposed to a FERPA violation. It’s very difficult situation that we’re in.” http://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/article_cf8030e2-8c56-5f0a-ab58-4fea551cbc67.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doesn't sound to me like anyone is rolling over. This is the same DOE who "Bullied" the University by working hand in hand with the DOJ on the Title IX investigation of UM. I doubt they are are going to roll over for a Montana District Court Judge.

PR does the fact this has already been before a federal Judge (in a different form) further complicate matters???

 

[mcg]

I wonder if the entity the University is most interested in protecting is the University.

 

[tnt]

I wonder if the entity the University is most interested in protecting is the University.

The have less to fear from a Krakauer book written about a 3 - 4 year old case at a University that reponded by adopting a model that is now the national standard of how a university should respond than the pissed off DOE. As far as any exposure to the "student" it would all be public if the predicted 2015 Armageddon for the University came to fruition anyway.

Wahlberg may be right, but I'm guessing The UM situation will be a chapter or two in a book about a broader situation. Football crazed town allowing athletes to get away with just about anything stuff is old stuff - been written about for years. Krakauer is more "trendy" than that.

 

[getgrizzy]

Doubt it.

It would seem that most likely it will be a collection of investigations into the vast array of inconsistencies of how campuses handle sexual assault charges. Krakauer is an incredibly good investigative journalist. I would expect the book to be more of a showing how campuses poorly handle assault charges that has lead to harming the victims, bypassing due process for the accused, and inconsistently handling charges.

Brint, I agree with you to a certain extent because it is entirely possible that this is his objective. However, I also know that Into the Wild was not as well received or appreciated in Alaska because it seemed to glorify a kid who was trying to make a statement but ultimately died because he wasn't prepared for the wilderness.

The link from that book to whatever book could come out of this are tenuous from what we know now, but not everyone has always appreciated what Krakauer does, especially on a local level.

That being said, I think the university has some explaining to do not just from the Johnson incident but from the Donaldson incident and the Saudi rapist incident. Not all cases involved football players, which really underscores how bad an argument it is that UM is protecting its athletes at the expense of due process. I think the biggest problem is that UM was trying to win a public relations campaign and they took widely inconsistent approaches to achieve those victories in each case. It is my opinion that UM took each incident on a case by case basis and tried to figure out what the most popular move would be. If I'm a student at UM, that scares the hell out of me whether I'm a football player or not. I hope this is the focus of the book, as you think it will be, Brint.

chris mccandless was very prepared for life in the wilderness and would've easily survived had he not made the error of mistaking one variety of seed for another. the two seeds were nearly identical, so that mistake had little to do with his knowledge. the alaskans you speak of are pissed because what mccandless correctly identified as a moose was wrongly called a caribou by the "experienced local hunters". someone tried to claim that the seeds weren't at fault as mccandless said in his journal and krakauer agreed with, but they were proven correct recently.
krakauer is an expert investigator and writer by any measure.

No. I was working in Denali at the time Into the Wild was released. It was all the rage of talk at Lynx Creek Bar and while the topic of the mistaken animal identity arose once or twice it was not the bulk of what people were unhappy about. This was not the Alaskan wilderness or even remote bush country, and the locals knew it. This played out in an abandoned school bus. Think about that. Somebody drove that school bus down the road and left it there. This is not the Alaskan wilderness or the Alaskan bush, not even remotely close, that was painted by the author. The locals knew that in spades.

lets see some of these locals try living in an abandoned bus with just a small rifle and a sack of rice out on the edge of town for 118 days (the bus is actually 20 miles off the main highway and people have died and gotten lost trying to reach it) it'll start seeming like the wilderness real quick. my guess is most of them haven't ever walked 20 miles in a day. face it, they're just pissed that he got all kinds of attention for what he did and a story was written about him when they've been hoping someone recognizes their great back country prowess. more of an ego thing, which if you've been around anyone who so much as hunts for one month out of the year isn't hard to imagine. these guys think they're jeremiah johnson after a day of hunting.

 

[statler & waldorf]

The author is a muckraker. IF anything good comes of it, and I doubt it will, maybe it will be enough to get Engstrom canned and JJs accuser exposed. And maybe, just MAYBE, show the Missoulian for what it was, and is, a waste of ink and paper.