Johnson, and now Kemp, hung out to dry

[WaGriz4life]

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

Exactly. This is a "scandal" in search of an actual "scandal."

Franticly trying to find a body in the closet.

Again, what are the chances that three national investigatory institutions are ALL wrong? Are you guys honestly saying that the DOJ, the DOE, and the NCAA are each wrong in their own right? If it was just one agency, I might agree with you. If it was two, I would start to waffle. But three? Come on, guys. Right now, it doesn't look good. I hope the investigations don't find anything, and if we've got nothing to hide, they won't.

If you think they will find something simply because they have to, why don't you bring some past examples where three federal agencies manufactured evidence to attribute guilt to a school. I'll be waiting.

Thats exactly what I'm saying. The NCAA will find secondary violations (violations with no real penalties) because they always do with a system that arbitrary. The DOJ and the DOE will find absolutely nothing in regards to the athletic department "covering up" crimes, just like the Barz report didn't find anything. Pflugrad did everything by the book after the police came to him. Plus the DOJ is here to investigate the Missoula Police Department, and no they aren't going to find all this evidence that they are working with the athletic department to help out football players.

The body in the closet doesn't exist, with regards to the athletic department cover up conspiracy.

 

[kemajic]

I hope the investigations don't find anything, and if we've got nothing to hide, they won't.

I doubt even they won't be able to miss the administrative incompetance of UM, since it is so visible. Just a matter of what details fit their agendas.

 

[Noches de Passion]

The various investigations, or most of them, are based on complaints. Complaints and accusations turn out to be wrong, unfounded, or overblown all the time. It isn't publicly known what, if anything, any of the investigations have found. Nachos, you are asking the wrong questions, and appear not to understand the process.

Thanks, PR. I can always count on you to set the record straight. :roll:

 

[Noches de Passion]

And some of you have yet to address FVV's assertion that county attorneys aren't law enforcement. That claim, again, is disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. Things like that seem to really fuel the fire of investigation.

 

[Cats2506]

I heard from a reliable source that the reason Kemp is suspended indefinitely is because he got into a major fight/arguement with Coach D. Maybe he heard something he didnt like???? Idk but all i know is its never wise to get into a pissing match with the Head Ball Coach because a player will never win

This is what confused me about the title of the thread. How was Kemp hung out to dry? The suspension had nothing to do with the tazer incident and I don't think Delaney would suspend a player without good reason. We have a coach who makes players accountable for their actions...something Griz fans have not seen for quite a while and something that cost a coach and AD their jobs.

That is a novel concept over here :thumb:

 

[PlayerRep]

Hardy's comments on UM qb's are in an article in today's Missoulian:

"Trent has work to do, but Trent will be very fine after he learns the playbook and he settles down and becomes more comfortable."

"I think Shay looks pretty good. He's just so smart. He reminds me of Selle--maybe not the arms strength but he's very good at getting the ball out before you come out of your break, so it's there."

 

[Noches de Passion]

Is Trent in town this summer?

 

[Grizzoola]

Whats pretty funny PR is letting someone else do yourreading for you. There were 40 arrests in 2010, the huge number of conduct code violations were residenc hall violations only 11 made it to the dean. If you want to play that game you made your players look even worse. Better read again If the rest of the students commited rapes assaults or were investigated for the same at the same rate as the team it would be in the thousands. Its not. Frankly I don't think many of the players are living in the residence halls and getting caught with beer, but even the were I don't think it would be terribly newsworthy.

Maybe a fairer way to handle this issue would be to compare a random sampling of non-football UM students to football students. For example, whatever number on the roster, take a random sample of the same number in the general student body and compare the number of any and all misconduct events in the two groups.

Of course, this lumps arrests, etc., right in with dorm violations. I don't know how to get around that, unless the "study" would only include violations that involve local police. Another problem, of course, is rule violations within the athletic department that don't affect other students, but do manage to hit the press.

 

[PlayerRep]

And some of you have yet to address FVV's assertion that county attorneys aren't law enforcement. That claim, again, is disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. Things like that seem to really fuel the fire of investigation.

I've heard that the county attorney has a pretty good argument overall, on the point of whether DOJ even has jurisdiction to investigate his office. His office doesn't receive federal funds, so it looks like there may not be the normal federal funds hook for jurisdiction. DOJ tried to claim the office did receive a small amount of funds, but it turned out that was not accurate. On the "law enforcement officer" point, you may be right. However, look at the county attorney's May 25 letter on that point, the definition in the statute, and the country statement regarding not having the ability to conduct or direct investigations. The corres back and forth, which is on the 4and20blackbird site, is interesting. See the letters linked in the below link, and look at the May 25 letter in particular. I didn't notice that the DOJ had provided any support, cites, or case law to support their view on "law enforcement agent". If they had that support, I assume they would have cited it.

From May 25 letter:

"While you appear to primarily rely on your personal opinion that the prosecutors in our
office are, for the purposes of 42 U.S.C. 14141, law enforcement officers, you provide no legal
basis for that opinion other than your reference to the definition in the Police Accountability Act
of 1991, H.R. 2972 §2(b), 102d Congress.Y That provision (set forth below)

(b) DEFINITION- As used in this section, the term ‘law enforcement officer'
means an official empowered by law to conduct investigations of, to make arrests
for, or to detain individuals suspected or convicted of, criminal offenses.

has no application to me or anyone Who Works in my office. We do not conduct investigations.
We do not make arrests nor do We detain individuals. We have no investigators on our staff. In
addition, We have no authority to direct law enforcement investigations.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BylnWyBaMmTqQmxqOFpoVWRJT0E/edit?pli=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [This is May 25 letter]

http://4and20blackbirds.wordpress.com/2012/06/30/county-attorney-van-valkenburg-responds-the-correspondence-with-the-doj-civil-rights-division/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Cats2506]

The various investigations, or most of them, are based on complaints. Complaints and accusations turn out to be wrong, unfounded, or overblown all the time. It isn't publicly known what, if anything, any of the investigations have found. Nachos, you are asking the wrong questions, and appear not to understand the process.

exactly, the DOJ investigation is because of the inordinately large number of complaints that were not pursued by UM and MSLA county

 

[mcg]

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

Exactly. This is a "scandal" in search of an actual "scandal."

Franticly trying to find a body in the closet.

Again, what are the chances that three national investigatory institutions are ALL wrong? Are you guys honestly saying that the DOJ, the DOE, and the NCAA are each wrong in their own right? If it was just one agency, I might agree with you. If it was two, I would start to waffle. But three? Come on, guys. Right now, it doesn't look good. I hope the investigations don't find anything, and if we've got nothing to hide, they won't.

If you think they will find something simply because they have to, why don't you bring some past examples where three federal agencies manufactured evidence to attribute guilt to a school. I'll be waiting.

My whole problem is that I can't figure out how the 'problem' relates to Grizzly Football. The DOJ and DOE investigations seem to be much larger in scope and my perception is that the NCAA is piling on. My real problem is no one in UM leadership has communicated how all this relates to Grizzly Football.

If there is a problem it should be addressed, but in my humble opinion leadership at UM is non-existant.

 

[br fan]

The various investigations, or most of them, are based on complaints. Complaints and accusations turn out to be wrong, unfounded, or overblown all the time. It isn't publicly known what, if anything, any of the investigations have found. Nachos, you are asking the wrong questions, and appear not to understand the process.

exactly, the DOJ investigation is because of the inordinately large number of complaints that were not pursued by UM and MSLA county

I disagree with this. IMO DOJ is investigating because of the Saudi student incident, and the other complaints were rounded up into the investigation. UM would have, and should have, been investigated by the other agencies without the Saudi incident, but I don't think we would have seen the DOJ in Missoula without it.

 

[PlayerRep]

The various investigations, or most of them, are based on complaints. Complaints and accusations turn out to be wrong, unfounded, or overblown all the time. It isn't publicly known what, if anything, any of the investigations have found. Nachos, you are asking the wrong questions, and appear not to understand the process.

exactly, the DOJ investigation is because of the inordinately large number of complaints that were not pursued by UM and MSLA county

That's not true. You don't know what triggered the investigations. From what is publicly known, UM and Msla county looks like it pursued all complaints that were even borderline credible. Just because some accuser doesn't like the result, or isn't ultimately believe by the police or the investigator, doesn't mean the complaint wasn't properly pursued. One of the most publicized accusers, and complainers, apparently had the police declined to believe there was enough of a case, or didn't believe her, twice, and then the university panel eventually voted 7-0 against her.

 

[PlayerRep]

Is Trent in town this summer?

Yes.

 

[Grizfan-24]

They don't deserve justice. Kemp and Johnson put themselves in position to have their destiny taken out of their own hands. That simple.

This statement tells a lot about you. First, as has been previously pointed out, the only thing Kemp's and JJ's issues have in common is that they are football players. One is a violation of team rules, likely insubordination; due process does not come into play there. The HC is the boss. The other, a sexual assault accusation, yet uncharged. Throw due process out the window in the name of changing "perception." And leveling the field..... You and Coture are from the same cloth. That simple.

Before you go lump me in with the rest of the McCarthy crowd and including Couture, I would suggest reading the whole line of postings. That being said, I wasn't all that clear with that posting.

I should have said Kemp and Johnson don't deserve by position justice but rather they should have the same expectation of justice and fairness as every student at the University. Moreover, I still believe that our obsession with Kemp and Johnson being hung out to dry isn't what is happening. Rather that some within the grizzly fandom believe they are being done an injustice, much like those at Penn State who believe this is some political agenda.

I am a strong believer is that we aren't focusing on the right thing here. They are in the positions they are in because of poor choices on their behalf and not because of some political conspiracy. Now they have their destinies taken out of their own hands and into the hands of others who incidentally have as perverse versions of justice like Couture. I trust that Johnson and Kemps cases, although different, will be carried out to their proper and just end.

 

[kemajic]

They don't deserve justice. Kemp and Johnson put themselves in position to have their destiny taken out of their own hands. That simple.

This statement tells a lot about you. First, as has been previously pointed out, the only thing Kemp's and JJ's issues have in common is that they are football players. One is a violation of team rules, likely insubordination; due process does not come into play there. The HC is the boss. The other, a sexual assault accusation, yet uncharged. Throw due process out the window in the name of changing "perception." And leveling the field..... You and Coture are from the same cloth. That simple.

Before you go lump me in with the rest of the McCarthy crowd and including Couture, I would suggest reading the whole line of postings. That being said, I wasn't all that clear with that posting.

I should have said Kemp and Johnson don't deserve by position justice but rather they should have the same expectation of justice and fairness as every student at the University. Moreover, I still believe that our obsession with Kemp and Johnson being hung out to dry isn't what is happening. Rather that some within the grizzly fandom believe they are being done an injustice, much like those at Penn State who believe this is some political agenda.

I am a strong believer is that we aren't focusing on the right thing here. They are in the positions they are in because of poor choices on their behalf and not because of some political conspiracy. Now they have their destinies taken out of their own hands and into the hands of others who incidentally have as perverse versions of justice like Couture. I trust that Johnson and Kemps cases, although different, will be carried out to their proper and just end.

That does clarify your position and I appreciate the mature response. I have much more confidence in the Kemp case be handled properly because I have confidence in Delaney. However, we have already seen how the deck is stacked against Johnson by the UM admin, so I have no confidence his case will be carried out to a proper and just end. It is now way too complicated for this fumbling adminstration to find a way out of.

It will be interesting to see if the UM admin handling of the Saudi student case, the consentual bj case, the JJ case and maybe others we don't know about will be carried out to a proper and just end.

 

[AZGrizFan]

That does clarify your position and I appreciate the mature response.

They ARE a rarity around here... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[IntuitiveGriz]

I must be in the minority here, but I don't see them as being hung out to dry. I see them as young men who for one reason or another have stepped across the big white line in the sand. They have violated one rule or another. Is it tweets, being in the wrong place, or whatever their misdeed is their actions have put them there. One easy way to make sure that Kemp or Johnson or anyone else for that matter isn't on the political crap list is not do the stuff they aren't supposed to do in the first place.

This isn't Gee's, Engstroms or someone elses misdoings that put them there. Lets not forget that. I think we do because it seems that we all want to do what Penn State and other colleges have done for decades, which is not holding people accountable for their behavior. Even if Kemp and Johnson didn't do what they were accused of, they and they alone made some questionable decision making to put themselves there. They made their own bed.

I am sympathetic to their plight and they both should get their ability to present their case, but not at the expense of brushing stuff under the rug anymore. Like it or not, this is not the climate for patience and prudence. They and others have been crossing that white line entirely too often and faced little or no punishment for those misdeeds. So if that means for the time being Kemp, Johnson and others are shown the door for incredibly poor judgement than that is how it needs to be for a while. There cannot be stink attached to this program from here on out or the political winds will make sure the program will ensure they are given the death penalty and play in front of sparse crowds and no scholarships.

This isn't about wins and losses. This isn't about starting quarterbacks, the football program or some political gambit. All about doing things the right way and with a clear white line that these players know not to cross.

STANDING OVATION!!! :clap:

In life, you either get it or you don't. And you my friend GET IT.

 

[IntuitiveGriz]

Is Trent in town this summer?

JJ has been practicing/"mentoring" Trent and Shay this summer in the teams unnoficial practices. Shay has been here all summer and Trent has been here the past few weeks.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I must be in the minority here, but I don't see them as being hung out to dry. I see them as young men who for one reason or another have stepped across the big white line in the sand. They have violated one rule or another. Is it tweets, being in the wrong place, or whatever their misdeed is their actions have put them there. One easy way to make sure that Kemp or Johnson or anyone else for that matter isn't on the political crap list is not do the stuff they aren't supposed to do in the first place.

This isn't Gee's, Engstroms or someone elses misdoings that put them there. Lets not forget that. I think we do because it seems that we all want to do what Penn State and other colleges have done for decades, which is not holding people accountable for their behavior. Even if Kemp and Johnson didn't do what they were accused of, they and they alone made some questionable decision making to put themselves there. They made their own bed.

I am sympathetic to their plight and they both should get their ability to present their case, but not at the expense of brushing stuff under the rug anymore. Like it or not, this is not the climate for patience and prudence. They and others have been crossing that white line entirely too often and faced little or no punishment for those misdeeds. So if that means for the time being Kemp, Johnson and others are shown the door for incredibly poor judgement than that is how it needs to be for a while. There cannot be stink attached to this program from here on out or the political winds will make sure the program will ensure they are given the death penalty and play in front of sparse crowds and no scholarships.

This isn't about wins and losses. This isn't about starting quarterbacks, the football program or some political gambit. All about doing things the right way and with a clear white line that these players know not to cross.

STANDING OVATION!!! :clap:

In life, you either get it or you don't. And you my friend GET IT.

You don't fix a cracked windshield with a sledgehammer.