Johnson, and now Kemp, hung out to dry

[MrTitleist]

Player,

I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. I understand your point of view but I wholeheartedly disagree. We UofM fans like to think we aren't Miami, OSU, or USC or even Penn State. The fact is that we are. There has been a lot of unholy crap that has gone on in the program and around the program since the early 90's that has been ignored. Was or is it a conspiracy to ignore wrong doings by a lot of people? No probably not, but we sure as heck like those at Penn State didn't want to upset the apple cart. That is win at all costs. I and a lot of other people in Missoula turned our heads and allowed football players and other athletes to escape punishment for the fear of hurting the teams chances to win. There are a lot of good people within the Athletic Department and football program, and while their intentions were good and grand they made the decisions to ignore information or not pursue information they had because it would upset the apple cart.

I know we want to support those players to the nth degree. To make sure they get the 'justice' they 'deserve.' That is what is perverse. They don't deserve justice. Kemp and Johnson put themselves in position to have their destiny taken out of their own hands. That simple.

Careful, Grizfan, PR & Titleist will want statistics. They don't believe in perceptions.

Or maybe I'd like to see you spout off about something with some sort of clue as to what you're talking about instead of what typically comes out of your fingers and ends up on the keyboard. It's stupid to lump in 95% of the football team with the likes of Beau Donaldson (the only person charged with any crime in entire rape case) and label the entire team morally corrupt. I don't believe the team, or athletics program, is morally corrupt.. I believe there have been some pretty shitty people on the team in the past, but when you're talking about 1-5% of a team that isn't too bad of a sampling. But you're the king of sweeping generalizations.

 

[PlayerRep]

What are you basing that on, accusations, arrests, or convictions? What count did you use for the team, did you account for additions and losses of players over the 2 years?

Just wondering...

Doesn't much matter although I made it pretty easy. Just take (0.X times 14,000) So which ever it is you want to do, say rape accusations (leading to investigations) (.08) (14,000) = 1120. or Sexual assault leading to expulsion (.03) (14000) = 420 (doesn't matter which standard preponderance or most likley)

Additions or losses to the team would be roughly at the same rate as the rest of the student body. I actually gave the team a bit of an advantage (I'm fan after all) by making them 100 and the Student Body 14,000. It would actually make the team look worse to use the actual enrollment numbers.

In the latest student safety booklet they list arrests/occurances on campus and student court incidents from 2010, this consisted of approximately 7.65% of the student body (the overwhemling majority being student court on drug or alcohol hearing). The 2011 team roster size I believe is 85 and of those on the roster there were 5 arrests (Montana, Tru, Kemp, Donaldson, Maus) plus I believe 2 DUIs (Duncan and Middleton) so 7/85 = 8.23%.

That's suuuuper blunt on my side. First of all I don't know about any athlete student court hearings other than what's been rumored on here. Second the counts against the student body are on campus only, so as I understand it if a student were, say, arrested for a DUI on Higgins Ave it wouldn't be in this report. Of course this report from the UM also doesn't list allegations or investigations that led nowhere.

I'd say both numbers are pretty low, but they're marginally comparable.

Of course the drilled down issue is the more serious offenses such as Donaldson's and can/should that even be compared against a student court alcohol hearing as comparable? Probably not... just goes to show numbers can be skewed in any way to fit when you've got something as wide open as this.

I believe there are 97 players listed on the 2011 roster. So, recalculating using that number, the percentage is 7.2%, which is lower than the student body average. Nice try, TNT, except the stats apparently show that you are completely wrong. That's pretty funny.

 

[Grizfan-24]

Player,

I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. I understand your point of view but I wholeheartedly disagree. We UofM fans like to think we aren't Miami, OSU, or USC or even Penn State. The fact is that we are. There has been a lot of unholy crap that has gone on in the program and around the program since the early 90's that has been ignored. Was or is it a conspiracy to ignore wrong doings by a lot of people? No probably not, but we sure as heck like those at Penn State didn't want to upset the apple cart. That is win at all costs. I and a lot of other people in Missoula turned our heads and allowed football players and other athletes to escape punishment for the fear of hurting the teams chances to win. There are a lot of good people within the Athletic Department and football program, and while their intentions were good and grand they made the decisions to ignore information or not pursue information they had because it would upset the apple cart.

I know we want to support those players to the nth degree. To make sure they get the 'justice' they 'deserve.' That is what is perverse. They don't deserve justice. Kemp and Johnson put themselves in position to have their destiny taken out of their own hands. That simple.

Careful, Grizfan, PR & Titleist will want statistics. They don't believe in perceptions.

Or maybe I'd like to see you spout off about something with some sort of clue as to what you're talking about instead of what typically comes out of your fingers and ends up on the keyboard. It's stupid to lump in 95% of the football team with the likes of Beau Donaldson (the only person charged with any crime in entire rape case) and label the entire team morally corrupt. I don't believe the team, or athletics program, is morally corrupt.. I believe there have been some pretty shitty people on the team in the past, but when you're talking about 1-5% of a team that isn't too bad of a sampling. But you're the king of sweeping generalizations.

I agree completely. My point wasn't as some seem to think that I was penning the program as a bunch of lawless individuals. However as has been my point all along, is that too much of the perception of the program was tied to allegiences that those 1-5% got. As was my experience in the late 90's and early 00's there was a growing perception that the program, at least a small minority didn't have to live within the rules. This came from close friends in the program.

I don't think it is correct to pen the program in a completely negative light, but I am not going to make excuses for a few bad eggs anymore. We are well beyond that point, as I wanted to explain to guys like Player and so forth that no matter what I saw in the past, really doesn't matter at this point. I know excuses were made in the past and that is all I personally was trying to allude to. Just no tollerance for it, nor should there be.

 

[mcg]

Player,

I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. I understand your point of view but I wholeheartedly disagree. We UofM fans like to think we aren't Miami, OSU, or USC or even Penn State. The fact is that we are. There has been a lot of unholy crap that has gone on in the program and around the program since the early 90's that has been ignored. Was or is it a conspiracy to ignore wrong doings by a lot of people? No probably not, but we sure as heck like those at Penn State didn't want to upset the apple cart. That is win at all costs. I and a lot of other people in Missoula turned our heads and allowed football players and other athletes to escape punishment for the fear of hurting the teams chances to win. There are a lot of good people within the Athletic Department and football program, and while their intentions were good and grand they made the decisions to ignore information or not pursue information they had because it would upset the apple cart.

I know we want to support those players to the nth degree. To make sure they get the 'justice' they 'deserve.' That is what is perverse. They don't deserve justice. Kemp and Johnson put themselves in position to have their destiny taken out of their own hands. That simple.

Careful, Grizfan, PR & Titleist will want statistics. They don't believe in perceptions.

It's stupid to lump in 95% of the football team with the likes of Beau Donaldson (the only person charged with any crime in entire rape case) and label the entire team morally corrupt. I don't believe the team, or athletics program, is morally corrupt.. I believe there have been some pretty shitty people on the team in the past, but when you're talking about 1-5% of a team that isn't too bad of a sampling.

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

 

[Grizfan-24]

Player,

I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. I understand your point of view but I wholeheartedly disagree. We UofM fans like to think we aren't Miami, OSU, or USC or even Penn State. The fact is that we are. There has been a lot of unholy crap that has gone on in the program and around the program since the early 90's that has been ignored. Was or is it a conspiracy to ignore wrong doings by a lot of people? No probably not, but we sure as heck like those at Penn State didn't want to upset the apple cart. That is win at all costs. I and a lot of other people in Missoula turned our heads and allowed football players and other athletes to escape punishment for the fear of hurting the teams chances to win. There are a lot of good people within the Athletic Department and football program, and while their intentions were good and grand they made the decisions to ignore information or not pursue information they had because it would upset the apple cart.

I know we want to support those players to the nth degree. To make sure they get the 'justice' they 'deserve.' That is what is perverse. They don't deserve justice. Kemp and Johnson put themselves in position to have their destiny taken out of their own hands. That simple.

Careful, Grizfan, PR & Titleist will want statistics. They don't believe in perceptions.

It's stupid to lump in 95% of the football team with the likes of Beau Donaldson (the only person charged with any crime in entire rape case) and label the entire team morally corrupt. I don't believe the team, or athletics program, is morally corrupt.. I believe there have been some pretty shitty people on the team in the past, but when you're talking about 1-5% of a team that isn't too bad of a sampling.

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

I hear you, but the problem is far tactile. I don't believe for a minute that Donaldson or the ruffie group is hardly explanitory of the problem. Nor do I honestly believe it is a University isolated problem. This is why I don't put the problem at the feet of the coaches or the administration. They (those in power) had opportunity to send messages about player behavior but the reality is that there was no iron clad line to follow as far back as Read's regime. That being said, kids in general and this comes from coaching at the high school level is that fewer kids have the intestinal fortitude as well as the common sense thinking skills to navigate their way through these issues. Standards of any type will help. I believe that is a good beginning and if that is what comes of this, I do believe it is a good start.

 

[PlayerRep]

Player,

I don't want to get into a pissing match with you. I understand your point of view but I wholeheartedly disagree. We UofM fans like to think we aren't Miami, OSU, or USC or even Penn State. The fact is that we are. There has been a lot of unholy crap that has gone on in the program and around the program since the early 90's that has been ignored. Was or is it a conspiracy to ignore wrong doings by a lot of people? No probably not, but we sure as heck like those at Penn State didn't want to upset the apple cart. That is win at all costs. I and a lot of other people in Missoula turned our heads and allowed football players and other athletes to escape punishment for the fear of hurting the teams chances to win. There are a lot of good people within the Athletic Department and football program, and while their intentions were good and grand they made the decisions to ignore information or not pursue information they had because it would upset the apple cart.

I know we want to support those players to the nth degree. To make sure they get the 'justice' they 'deserve.' That is what is perverse. They don't deserve justice. Kemp and Johnson put themselves in position to have their destiny taken out of their own hands. That simple.

Careful, Grizfan, PR & Titleist will want statistics. They don't believe in perceptions.

It's stupid to lump in 95% of the football team with the likes of Beau Donaldson (the only person charged with any crime in entire rape case) and label the entire team morally corrupt. I don't believe the team, or athletics program, is morally corrupt.. I believe there have been some pretty shitty people on the team in the past, but when you're talking about 1-5% of a team that isn't too bad of a sampling.

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

Yup. I think the problem has been, in addition to too many player incidents: a president over-reacting in appointing an apparently unnecessary independent investigator; the Missoulian's over-hyped and biased reporting/crusade; a president over-reacting and firing the AD and coach (which escalated the local and internet coverage into the mainstream national press); Pat Williams apparently going the feds to get them involved in an unprecedented investigaton (I have no firsthand knowledge, but I've heard from people who claim they do have knowledge); and a bad dean who appears to have mis-analyzed and goofed up most of the sexual assault allegations and situations. It's created a perfect storm.

 

[Sportin' Life]

Yup. I think the problem has been, in addition to too many player incidents: a president over-reacting in appointing an apparently unnecessary independent investigator; the Missoulian's over-hyped and biased reporting/crusade; a president over-reacting and firing the AD and coach (which escalated the local and internet coverage into the mainstream national press); Pat Williams apparently going the feds to get them involved in an unprecedented investigaton (I have no firsthand knowledge, but I've heard from people who claim they do have knowledge); and a bad dean who appears to have mis-analyzed and goofed up most of the sexual assault allegations and situations. It's created a perfect storm.

To paraphrase Bob Costas interviewing Sandusky, 'this must be the unluckiest program in history'.

 

[tnt]

Whats pretty funny PR is letting someone else do yourreading for you. There were 40 arrests in 2010, the huge number of conduct code violations were residenc hall violations only 11 made it to the dean. If you want to play that game you made your players look even worse. Better read again If the rest of the students commited rapes assaults or were investigated for the same at the same rate as the team it would be in the thousands. Its not. Frankly I don't think many of the players are living in the residence halls and getting caught with beer, but even the were I don't think it would be terribly newsworthy.

 

[montana_jack]

Only one man can fix this.

Dave Dickenson, please come home.

 

[Growler1]

Careful, Grizfan, PR & Titleist will want statistics. They don't believe in perceptions.

It's stupid to lump in 95% of the football team with the likes of Beau Donaldson (the only person charged with any crime in entire rape case) and label the entire team morally corrupt. I don't believe the team, or athletics program, is morally corrupt.. I believe there have been some pretty shitty people on the team in the past, but when you're talking about 1-5% of a team that isn't too bad of a sampling.

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

Yup. I think the problem has been, in addition to too many player incidents: a president over-reacting in appointing an apparently unnecessary independent investigator; the Missoulian's over-hyped and biased reporting/crusade; a president over-reacting and firing the AD and coach (which escalated the local and internet coverage into the mainstream national press); Pat Williams apparently going the feds to get them involved in an unprecedented investigaton (I have no firsthand knowledge, but I've heard from people who claim they do have knowledge); and a bad dean who appears to have mis-analyzed and goofed up most of the sexual assault allegations and situations. It's created a perfect storm.

Look at the spin-doctor do his thing once again, in total denial.

 

[TDiggs1]

I heard from a reliable source that the reason Kemp is suspended indefinitely is because he got into a major fight/arguement with Coach D. Maybe he heard something he didnt like???? Idk but all i know is its never wise to get into a pissing match with the Head Ball Coach because a player will never win

 

[UMGriz75]

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

Exactly. This is a "scandal" in search of an actual "scandal."

 

[indian-outlaw]

I heard from a reliable source that the reason Kemp is suspended indefinitely is because he got into a major fight/arguement with Coach D. Maybe he heard something he didnt like???? Idk but all i know is its never wise to get into a pissing match with the Head Ball Coach because a player will never win

I commend Coach Delaney for coming into a tough situation and showing the players who is in charge. It needed to be done. :clap:

 

[WaGriz4life]

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

Exactly. This is a "scandal" in search of an actual "scandal."

Franticly trying to find a body in the closet.

 

[putter]

I heard from a reliable source that the reason Kemp is suspended indefinitely is because he got into a major fight/arguement with Coach D. Maybe he heard something he didnt like???? Idk but all i know is its never wise to get into a pissing match with the Head Ball Coach because a player will never win

This is what confused me about the title of the thread. How was Kemp hung out to dry? The suspension had nothing to do with the tazer incident and I don't think Delaney would suspend a player without good reason. We have a coach who makes players accountable for their actions...something Griz fans have not seen for quite a while and something that cost a coach and AD their jobs.

 

[kemajic]

They don't deserve justice. Kemp and Johnson put themselves in position to have their destiny taken out of their own hands. That simple.

This statement tells a lot about you. First, as has been previously pointed out, the only thing Kemp's and JJ's issues have in common is that they are football players. One is a violation of team rules, likely insubordination; due process does not come into play there. The HC is the boss. The other, a sexual assault accusation, yet uncharged. Throw due process out the window in the name of changing "perception." And leveling the field..... You and Coture are from the same cloth. That simple.

 

[Noches de Passion]

That's exactly what I can't reconcile, one criminal case and we've got a gigantic s**t-storm. I'm all for fixing the problem, but no one in authority has stated what the problem is.

Exactly. This is a "scandal" in search of an actual "scandal."

Franticly trying to find a body in the closet.

Again, what are the chances that three national investigatory institutions are ALL wrong? Are you guys honestly saying that the DOJ, the DOE, and the NCAA are each wrong in their own right? If it was just one agency, I might agree with you. If it was two, I would start to waffle. But three? Come on, guys. Right now, it doesn't look good. I hope the investigations don't find anything, and if we've got nothing to hide, they won't.

If you think they will find something simply because they have to, why don't you bring some past examples where three federal agencies manufactured evidence to attribute guilt to a school. I'll be waiting.

 

[jagur1]

NCAA isnt a federal organization. Do you really need examples of all the times the US Federal Government has used it's power for injustice?

 

[Noches de Passion]

NCAA isnt a federal organization. Do you really need examples of all the times the US Federal Government has used it's power for injustice?

Sorry. I misused "federal" in place of "national." My apologies.

I'm not saying the federal government hasn't used its power for injustice. Of course they have.

However, I need examples where the federal government abused its power to falsify evidence, find things that didn't exist, and place it all on a public school as a scape goat.

 

[PlayerRep]

The various investigations, or most of them, are based on complaints. Complaints and accusations turn out to be wrong, unfounded, or overblown all the time. It isn't publicly known what, if anything, any of the investigations have found. Nachos, you are asking the wrong questions, and appear not to understand the process.