JJ

[tnt]

One of the biggest misunderstandings in public portrayals of sexual assault is that if no charges are filed then it was a false report. A tiny percentage of assaults are reported and a tiny percentage of those are charged because the courts operate under the burden of proof called "beyond a reasonable doubt." These crimes rarely have witnesses and it can be very difficult to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that one person is telling the truth over another person. I believe in due process and will not refer to someone as guilty if they are not found guilty in a court of law. What I would ask of everyone is to give that same respect to the accusers in these situations. Coming forward to report an assault is very difficult and it shows an incredible lack of sensitivity and compassion to speak about a situation you do not understand in such a hurtful manner.

I appreciate this and understand completely, but unfortunately there is a large neanderthal population on this board who is going to start attacking you shortly if they haven't done it yet in a private message. I would like to think that not many men still think that way and that it is false bravado and posturing on a message board, but I am not sure. I think you see the same issue in young boys who are abused. It is sometimes easier to say nothing than to relive the shame and be accused of ruining peoples lives.

Thank you both of you, It sums it all up beautifully, but a shame so many STILL won't get it.....

 

[Ursa Major]

Coming forward to report an assault is very difficult and it shows an incredible lack of sensitivity and compassion to speak about a situation you do not understand in such a hurtful manner.

Susan,

I believe that the vast majority of individuals on this board are not readily accusing the alleged victim(s) here and want those that are found guilty to be punished (see Gaeilge above). Most also agree with you in the need for due process. These cases are often not black in white or easy to prosecute.

Your last line here is a bit worrisome to me though. It seems like you could be fishing for a self-fulfilling prophecy here. Making an allegation of someone/some group/e-griz and then being insulted by an offended poster will certainly sustain the preferred reality (of some) that egriz is filled with caustic pigs. Not sure who you're accusing of having a "lack of sensitivity and compassion".

I enjoy your posts and think it is a good conversation to have. But it should be civil. What often happens with any message board is that a perceived slight can easily escalate into nonsense very quickly. I encourage you to continue to post.

 

[Grisly Fan]

One of the biggest misunderstandings in public portrayals of sexual assault is that if no charges are filed then it was a false report. A tiny percentage of assaults are reported and a tiny percentage of those are charged because the courts operate under the burden of proof called "beyond a reasonable doubt." These crimes rarely have witnesses and it can be very difficult to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that one person is telling the truth over another person. I believe in due process and will not refer to someone as guilty if they are not found guilty in a court of law. What I would ask of everyone is to give that same respect to the accusers in these situations. Coming forward to report an assault is very difficult and it shows an incredible lack of sensitivity and compassion to speak about a situation you do not understand in such a hurtful manner.

I appreciate this and understand completely, but unfortunately there is a large neanderthal population on this board who is going to start attacking you shortly if they haven't done it yet in a private message. I would like to think that not many men still think that way and that it is false bravado and posturing on a message board, but I am not sure. I think you see the same issue in young boys who are abused. It is sometimes easier to say nothing than to relive the shame and be accused of ruining peoples lives.

Thank you both of you, It sums it all up beautifully, but a shame so many STILL won't get it.....

Who in the forum has, in the abstract, said that sexual assault or rape is OK? Or that actual victims should be shamed? When you make this kind of post in a thread that has the title "JJ" then you are implying that he is guilty of something. I am with JCU27 on this (I can't believe it is true). GET OFF JJ's BACK and let the system work. When due process is done then the chips will fall where they may. Until then OF COURSE (!!!) victims should be encouraged to report alleged crimes and deserve the support of the community while the legal system does its job.

 

[GrizPony]

One of the biggest misunderstandings in public portrayals of sexual assault is that if no charges are filed then it was a false report. A tiny percentage of assaults are reported and a tiny percentage of those are charged because the courts operate under the burden of proof called "beyond a reasonable doubt." These crimes rarely have witnesses and it can be very difficult to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that one person is telling the truth over another person. I believe in due process and will not refer to someone as guilty if they are not found guilty in a court of law. What I would ask of everyone is to give that same respect to the accusers in these situations. Coming forward to report an assault is very difficult and it shows an incredible lack of sensitivity and compassion to speak about a situation you do not understand in such a hurtful manner.

I think you are correct on many levels. However, since the crime must be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt", it is imperative that victims preserve any evidence immediately. I don't think most victims know that and that message is not conveyed as a crucial first step to "at risk" individuals in society. The best way to do that is to report the crime as soon as possible and have medical providers isolate and confirm any evidence of the crime. I think most crime victim advocates do a disservice to victims if they encourage them to press charges long after any evidence can be obtained to assist in prosecuting the charges. "Advocates" know of the high standard of proof, but often push women to press charges knowing that they will ultimately fail in getting a conviction because evidence was not preserved or casts the victim in a negative light. To be a true victims advocate, one must use their expertise to avoid having the victim be "re-victimized" by not having their case pressed by police or prosecutors because those professionals know the case can not be won. To boil it down, victims advocates have to get the message out that victims need to act quickly if they ever want to have any justice after a horrendous crime like rape or sexual assault. If the act is too far in the past, without a Donaldson admission scenario, then counseling will likely be the better option for the victim.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

These crimes...

Susan,

My question has to do with characterizing allegations as "crimes." What facts do you possess that lead you to conclude that crimes have indeed been committed? I am only asking because I do not know the relevant facts. I've read the news accounts about the Beau Donaldson case, but that's all I know, and has been pointed out above, even Beau Donaldson should have his day in court.

So, while I agree with you completely that sexual assaults are probably underreported, I'm not sure the remedy is to assume crimes have been committed unless there are facts to substantiate those assumptions.

 

[tnt]

.

Who in the forum has, in the abstract, said that sexual assault or rape is OK? Or that actual victims should be shamed? When you make this kind of post in a thread that has the title "JJ" then you are implying that he is guilty of something. I am with JCU27 on this (I can't believe it is true). GET OFF JJ's BACK and let the system work. When due process is done then the chips will fall where they may. Until then OF COURSE (!!!) victims should be encouraged to report alleged crimes and deserve the support of the community while the legal system does its job.

Its just happens to be the title of the thread... In the abstract... Too many. To those whom think its a not a crime unless its a forceable rape proven by DNA , witnesses or what ever in the abstract are condoning it.

The early discussions blame the girls because they dress wrong and are asking for it, Others called them teases, The inference was made if not actually stated that most lie. You should read the "handout" passed out by our illustrious Police chief.

The fact is the reason (and if you read it with an open mind) Title IX is written the way it is, requiring the Universities do their own investigation and take action exclusive of the legal system is because they know that there are many instances where perhaps a crime can't be proven, a reasonable person (or committee of reasonable people) would know what happened was wrong.

I guarantee you none of the Jock sniffers defending the players involved to the end would have the same attitude if it were their daughters. I don't think anyone is that far gone that they wouldn't. It may be too much to hope for that any man would look at a female as he would his daughter or sister - at least not so long as they think of sex as a conquest and each of their partners as a notch on their belt. But I think there would be a fair number suprised to know that MOST men do. There is not the support for the "attitude" put out by U of M athletics in general and football specifically. Jersey Chasers? What do you call they guys who do everything they can to get caught what do you call them after the girls realizes she didn't want to catch him after all???

I would go one step further and piss everybody off. The support for Pflu is more the result of these "attitudes" being challenged than anything. We have never had coach who hasn't jumped ship the moment a better opportunity came forth. The sudden loyalty towards him a year after lynch mobs were forming is incredible.

 

[griz4life]

I guarantee you none of the Jock sniffers defending the players involved to the end would have the same attitude if it were their daughters. I don't think anyone is that far gone that they wouldn't

You mean like Pflugrad, whose daughter has most certainly been objectified by college men?

 

[tnt]

I guarantee you none of the Jock sniffers defending the players involved to the end would have the same attitude if it were their daughters. I don't think anyone is that far gone that they wouldn't

You mean like Pflugrad, whose daughter has most certainly been objectified by college men?

You don't think thats a zingerr do you? How many students let alone players would put themselves in position to be questioned? If they did how many would have the balls to say she was a slut or playing hard to get? What are the chances Pflu would take a player or students word over his daughters?

 

[TxGriz]

Women could make it easier on themselves if they wouldn't make false claims of rape/assault to cover their own lapses of judgement and character. Is Susan Miller equally angry toward those who make false charges against the innocent? Or is she taking the feminist view that female is always innocent and the male is always guilty by virtue of being male?

For every real sexual assault that occurs there is certainly a false claim and one occurs as often as the other. It happens all the time in divorce & custody cases. Our legal system has opened an arena for the sexes to declare war on each other is what has led to this mess, and no one wants to wait for due process to pass judgement.

 

[hm.grwn.grizfan]

It happens all the time in divorce & custody cases.

Have a friend who just went through that scenario. His wife was afraid that she was going to lose custody of her daughter and cried rape. She went to the YWCA and some other crisis center which provided legal representation. The crisis centers immediately assumed the terrible acts she accused her husband of committing were true. The woman later admitted that the allegations were false, yet nothing came of it. They resolved thier divorce and now have a decent relationship and joint custody of their daughter, but the fact that she had free representation, which forced him to lawyer up (not cheap) is indicitive of what women can do to men in Court today. Women immediately have the upper hand, and men are assumed guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Scott Disick]

One of the biggest misunderstandings in public portrayals of sexual assault is that if no charges are filed then it was a false report. A tiny percentage of assaults are reported and a tiny percentage of those are charged because the courts operate under the burden of proof called "beyond a reasonable doubt." These crimes rarely have witnesses and it can be very difficult to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that one person is telling the truth over another person. I believe in due process and will not refer to someone as guilty if they are not found guilty in a court of law. What I would ask of everyone is to give that same respect to the accusers in these situations. Coming forward to report an assault is very difficult and it shows an incredible lack of sensitivity and compassion to speak about a situation you do not understand in such a hurtful manner.

I think you are correct on many levels. However, since the crime must be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt", it is imperative that victims preserve any evidence immediately. I don't think most victims know that and that message is not conveyed as a crucial first step to "at risk" individuals in society. The best way to do that is to report the crime as soon as possible and have medical providers isolate and confirm any evidence of the crime. I think most crime victim advocates do a disservice to victims if they encourage them to press charges long after any evidence can be obtained to assist in prosecuting the charges. "Advocates" know of the high standard of proof, but often push women to press charges knowing that they will ultimately fail in getting a conviction because evidence was not preserved or casts the victim in a negative light. To be a true victims advocate, one must use their expertise to avoid having the victim be "re-victimized" by not having their case pressed by police or prosecutors because those professionals know the case can not be won. To boil it down, victims advocates have to get the message out that victims need to act quickly if they ever want to have any justice after a horrendous crime like rape or sexual assault. If the act is too far in the past, without a Donaldson admission scenario, then counseling will likely be the better option for the victim.

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that this reply to susanmiller came from a poster who calls himself "crackgina"? As in ass-crack and vagina combined. Real appropriate. I'm surprised he didn't brag about being "friends" with Donaldson, or claim he bought Beau beer and nachos at the bowling alley the night of the incident.

- Scott

 

[HighLineGRIZ]

Bottom line is that nobody on here knows what happend, so nobody should speculate one way or the other or throw there support behind JJ or the victim, unless they have a real relationship with that person or are close to the situation. Being a fan doesn't count to either..

 

[GrizLA]

One of the biggest misunderstandings in public portrayals of sexual assault is that if no charges are filed then it was a false report. A tiny percentage of assaults are reported and a tiny percentage of those are charged because the courts operate under the burden of proof called "beyond a reasonable doubt." These crimes rarely have witnesses and it can be very difficult to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that one person is telling the truth over another person. I believe in due process and will not refer to someone as guilty if they are not found guilty in a court of law. What I would ask of everyone is to give that same respect to the accusers in these situations. Coming forward to report an assault is very difficult and it shows an incredible lack of sensitivity and compassion to speak about a situation you do not understand in such a hurtful manner.

I think you are correct on many levels. However, since the crime must be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt", it is imperative that victims preserve any evidence immediately. I don't think most victims know that and that message is not conveyed as a crucial first step to "at risk" individuals in society. The best way to do that is to report the crime as soon as possible and have medical providers isolate and confirm any evidence of the crime. I think most crime victim advocates do a disservice to victims if they encourage them to press charges long after any evidence can be obtained to assist in prosecuting the charges. "Advocates" know of the high standard of proof, but often push women to press charges knowing that they will ultimately fail in getting a conviction because evidence was not preserved or casts the victim in a negative light. To be a true victims advocate, one must use their expertise to avoid having the victim be "re-victimized" by not having their case pressed by police or prosecutors because those professionals know the case can not be won. To boil it down, victims advocates have to get the message out that victims need to act quickly if they ever want to have any justice after a horrendous crime like rape or sexual assault. If the act is too far in the past, without a Donaldson admission scenario, then counseling will likely be the better option for the victim.

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that this reply to susanmiller came from a poster who calls himself "crackgina"? As in ass-crack and vagina combined. Real appropriate. I'm surprised he didn't brag about being "friends" with Donaldson, or claim he bought Beau beer and nachos at the bowling alley the night of the incident.

- Scott

Well, Scott..it is amazing. I am no fan of much of what "Crackgina" posts, but I have never seen in his or her name, anything other than what it is...never connected it to genitalia. In fact, more often than not, I immediately connect it to a very, very popular soft drink in France and elsewhere...Orangina...I guess some minds are in different places.

 

[GrizPony]

One of the biggest misunderstandings in public portrayals of sexual assault is that if no charges are filed then it was a false report. A tiny percentage of assaults are reported and a tiny percentage of those are charged because the courts operate under the burden of proof called "beyond a reasonable doubt." These crimes rarely have witnesses and it can be very difficult to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that one person is telling the truth over another person. I believe in due process and will not refer to someone as guilty if they are not found guilty in a court of law. What I would ask of everyone is to give that same respect to the accusers in these situations. Coming forward to report an assault is very difficult and it shows an incredible lack of sensitivity and compassion to speak about a situation you do not understand in such a hurtful manner.

I think you are correct on many levels. However, since the crime must be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt", it is imperative that victims preserve any evidence immediately. I don't think most victims know that and that message is not conveyed as a crucial first step to "at risk" individuals in society. The best way to do that is to report the crime as soon as possible and have medical providers isolate and confirm any evidence of the crime. I think most crime victim advocates do a disservice to victims if they encourage them to press charges long after any evidence can be obtained to assist in prosecuting the charges. "Advocates" know of the high standard of proof, but often push women to press charges knowing that they will ultimately fail in getting a conviction because evidence was not preserved or casts the victim in a negative light. To be a true victims advocate, one must use their expertise to avoid having the victim be "re-victimized" by not having their case pressed by police or prosecutors because those professionals know the case can not be won. To boil it down, victims advocates have to get the message out that victims need to act quickly if they ever want to have any justice after a horrendous crime like rape or sexual assault. If the act is too far in the past, without a Donaldson admission scenario, then counseling will likely be the better option for the victim.

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that this reply to susanmiller came from a poster who calls himself "crackgina"? As in ass-crack and vagina combined. Real appropriate. I'm surprised he didn't brag about being "friends" with Donaldson, or claim he bought Beau beer and nachos at the bowling alley the night of the incident.

- Scott

I seriously have no idea where you come from sometimes Scooter. Sure seems like you are a little butt hurt that you don't know any players. I never bought Beau anything so I guess you are confused as usual. But hey, Scott Disick is an upstanding "star" that has never had a sexist issue with a woman. Good choice on your name Mr. sensitive. :roll:

 

[UMGriz75]

A boyfriend and a girlfriend got into an argument. As often happens with the species, physical contact was made. As often happens under this legal system, in the heat of anger and retribution, papers were filed and, to both meet a legal threshold for a TRO, certain allegations had to be made and to maximize the vengeance quality, sometimes/often allegations get exaggerated.

Somebody's fight became everybody's fight. That's the way the world works today.

And unfortunately, domestic disputes get raised to formal accusations of domestic violence -- sometimes justifiably, sometimes not. There is not a single element there that is distinctive to athletics, to college-age students, or even to males in particular.

Nearly 40% of crimes of reported domestic violence are committed by women. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. In some reporting years, it has reached nearly 50%.

In one recent CDC study, nearly 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Assumptions based on stereotypes are just that: the Missoula community is currently burdened with a reporting system and a culture that seeks to create and perpetuate an invidious stereotype against men in general, and athletes in particular. It is, in the specific words of the former local newspaper, the Missoulian, specifically a "testosterone-soaked" culture that is the problem, and in that she is goaded by a local YWCA Director who only knows one ideology of sexual violence and therefore likely is an enabler of the greater problem of domestic violence herself.

This wasn't a frat party. This wasn't a boisterous downtown altercation. This wasn't a house party gone wild. This wasn't about some tragic experiment with date rape or drugs. This wasn't about a jock culture or a rape culture. There wasn't even treatable physical injury.

This was about two people at home having an argument.

Now, like Beau Donaldson, what did any of this really have to do with football?