Jim O'Day; vacating 2011 wins was wrong

[PlayerRep]

Didn't you know? The Westboro Baptist Church is on their way to Bozeman to "reveal the truth" about MSU.

In any event I was not referring to the U as a whole just the athletic department. RE is still under the misconception that eliminating Foley (one of the promises he made during the vetting) has cured many of the morale problems within the faculty. He has some support still within the Athletic Counsel, but darn little and its on hold elsewhere. He has managed to raise some big money out of state dierected towards "saving" the business school (stayed tuned for announcements) and believe it or not formed an alliance with an Australian Mining company opening new mines in West Africa for some environmental work that could pay off big. None the less in many of their minds with all the other distractions out of the way he is basically just starting his job. I don't think he will have a long probation.....

Alumini money (Big money) ultimatley comes for reasons well beyond supporting the old school. The vast majority of it comes from the promise of inside access, flesh pressing and stroking massive egos Why I don't doubt there are a number factors effecting it at present. It will be back. There is always new meat.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but a big issue is that there isn't anyone that thinks RE is "big flesh" to press. The Griz and O'Day used to be pretty big flesh. No one fills that role right now at the U.

While there is some truth to this, whose fault is that? Was Engstrom supposed to keep JOD and Pflu on because it'll mean a few hundred thou in athletic donations? The reputation of the University was at stake, and I guarantee that's more valuable than a few big donor fish. And truth be told, there were donor whales sitting on the sideline waiting to see how UM handled their issues. I think the Foundation would tell you those whales have now opened up their wallets again.

We all love Jim. But he needs to realize that UM is still a university first. And as many of suggested, it's time to move on, both personally and professionally.

No, RE was supposed to keep them on because there was no reason to fire them and cause this sh*t storm. I fully expected we were going to find out in time that there were major issues. Where are they? One football player pleads guilty to sexual assault and the NCAA 18 month investigation amount to charges for jay walking. Are we to expect more yet?..I have not heard rumors of more allegations. So all of this mess over what? I am still waiting to hear!

This is much more than a few hundred thou in athletic donations involved...like enrollment and related budget hits...and people's lives. The reputation of the University took a major hit because of bad decisions at the top.

Also, this whale has not reopened his wallet and will not do so until a change is made at the top.

The University of Montana deserves better!

Correct. Athletic donors sitting on the sidelines, for both general fund and athletic donations, is much higher than several hundred thousand. The amount of overall donations to the university is also done several million.

Engstrom's firing of the coach and AD grossly exaggerated the issues at UM, added fuel to the fire, made the situation look worse than it, and made the situation worse than it was. His decision contributed to the decline in enrollment. The firings were a bad decision any way you look at them. Engstrom lost huge credibility with the firings and otherwise, much of which he will never regain.

 

[GrizPony]

This^ We lost $5 million in pledges in the first two weeks after the firings. Significant in my mind.

 

[stubbins]

I respect O'Day for taking responsibility in the article. I don't know if comparing it to Manziel was accurate since the only reason Manziel got a half-game suspension is due to lack of evidence and his acceptance of the suspension to move forward. If the NCAA finds anything then he will surely be in much more trouble.

I don't know if I stand alone on this, but having closely watched the Griz over the past 2 decades, I can say the worst thing that has ever happened to the football program was hiring Pflugrad. He brought nothing but problems to the school and program. He tried to run a classy program like things were run in Oregon and realized Nike doesn't cover up his shit like they do for the ducks. Montana is special because of the integrity and character that sets us apart from much of the rest of the country, and Pflugrad jeopardized all of that during his few years at the helm. I, for one, feel that he owes Griz Nation a huge apology for his lack of discipline and control of the program and all the issues that resulted. The negative, national news that the Griz made over the past 5 years is embarrassing and I have never been happier to see someone go.

I could not be more embarrassed of this post than any others in the last five years. I hope weber averages 492 points per game. In a couple years, you will realize how horrible of a decision it was to fire Pflu And hire rip van winkle...

 

[indian-outlaw]

I don’t know what to think of all this. In the past I stuck up for RE for doing the right thing thinking he must have known way more about the situation than the general public but I am starting to think he doesn’t have the best interest of UM at heart after all. I do think Robin should have been a little tighter with the ship especially with kemp and Johnson. I think O’day was at the wrong place at the wrong time and RE had an excuse for regime change.

 

[tnt]

Correct. Athletic donors sitting on the sidelines, for both general fund and athletic donations, is much higher than several hundred thousand. The amount of overall donations to the university is also done several million.

Engstrom's firing of the coach and AD grossly exaggerated the issues at UM, added fuel to the fire, made the situation look worse than it, and made the situation worse than it was. His decision contributed to the decline in enrollment. The firings were a bad decision any way you look at them. Engstrom lost huge credibility with the firings and otherwise, much of which he will never regain.

Everybody thinks they are a whale:

http://www.supportum.org/newsandinformation/Financial%20News/2012%20Financial%20Statements.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Withholding designated athletic donations hurts who???

And while you are looking at financials you might look at these:

http://msuaf.org/s/1584/index.aspx?sid=1584&gid=1&pgid=377" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Once you understand the differences in accounting (ie the stadium expansion dollars,) you will notice UM is doing much better and in fact had a lower drop in funds through the down turn. But lets not let auditied statements get in the way of facts. And if somebody wants to come on a fan boards and brag how they are showing Engstrom whats what by directly hurting the kids, let em.

 

[PlayerRep]

I don’t know what to think of all this. In the past I stuck up for RE for doing the right thing thinking he must have known way more about the situation than the general public but I am starting to think he doesn’t have the best interest of UM at heart after all. I do think Robin should have been a little tighter with the ship especially with kemp and Johnson. I think O’day was at the wrong place at the wrong time and RE had an excuse for regime change.

Tighter with Kemp and Johnson? You realize that the decision and punishment for Kemp and Johnson was made by the committee, and then cleared with Engstrom--and Pflugrad was not on the committee? You realized that Engstrom was directly involved in communicating the university's support and the one-quarter suspensions to the team? If black players claim they are singled out by the police, and inappropriate stuff was yelled at them--both of which was supported by dozens of witnesses--don't you think a coach, and really the university, has a duty to support them?

 

[EverettGriz]

Good post TNT. A lot if people making declarative statements about things they really don't know much about.


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[GrizPony]

Good post TNT. A lot if people making declarative statements about things they really don't know much about.


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The fact that donations are static, or up slightly, in no way diminishes the truth of the statement that many donors withdrew pledges. I'm saying we could have more money, but not until the firings are explained.

 

[tnt]

Good post TNT. A lot if people making declarative statements about things they really don't know much about.


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The fact that donations are static, or up slightly, in no way diminishes the truth of the statement that many donors withdrew pledges. I'm saying we could have more money, but not until the firings are explained.

May be true, but then The Axiom of money talks and Bullshit walks applies. Uof M is still ahead of MSU and they didn't fire anybody. The Capital projects at U of M for athletics are on schedule. There are dozens of reasons to replace RE, but this dog simply dosen't hunt. Should he fail to attract the research/fellowship dollars he promised, then we have something to talk about. (Which BTW with the addition of the Primary Practice Residencey program is ahead of schedule.) The sad fact is should we have a succesful season (and I hope we do) make a run into the playoffs. RE will look like a genius. We acyually stand a LOT BETTER chance of someone else hiring him than anything.

 

[PlayerRep]

Good post TNT. A lot if people making declarative statements about things they really don't know much about.


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The fact that donations are static, or up slightly, in no way diminishes the truth of the statement that many donors withdrew pledges. I'm saying we could have more money, but not until the firings are explained.

May be true, but then The Axiom of money talks and Bullshit walks applies. Uof M is still ahead of MSU and they didn't fire anybody. The Capital projects at U of M for athletics are on schedule. There are dozens of reasons to replace RE, but this dog simply dosen't hunt. Should he fail to attract the research/fellowship dollars he promised, then we have something to talk about. (Which BTW with the addition of the Primary Practice Residencey program is ahead of schedule.) The sad fact is should we have a succesful season (and I hope we do) make a run into the playoffs. RE will look like a genius. We acyually stand a LOT BETTER chance of someone else hiring him than anything.

Donations are UM are not up. They are down. This comes directly from the UM fundraisers. Research dollars are not materializing and are declining (as they are at many schools). UM football often makes a deep run in the playoffs and did so in 2011 under Pflu. UM was 5-6 last year, the worst season in decades. A deep run in the playoffs won't make Engstrom look like a genius, because that's essentially been the norm, which he has helped destroy.

Where are you getting the UM is ahead of MSU in fundraising? Please point out the specific line items.

The financial statement you supplied are through last fiscal year, June 30, 2012. They are out of date. My information is more current.

 

[George Ferguson]

Griz Pony hit the nail on the head "Firings Explained". The fact that RE fired two men who held very public and high-profile positions at a major university with a two-paragraph e-mail has really gotten lost in all this. That was misconduct at it's worse if you ask me. Not being transparent is a big part of why Montana got into this mess in the first place, and that move was non-transparency at it's absolute worst. And I don't care about terms like non-renewal and pending litigation, the general public, the fan base, the tax payers of Montana, the football team, the remaining coaching staff, the student body at UM and on deserved for the president to stand up and explain why he had decided to do what he did and take questions afterwards. To me, that is one of the biggest shams of the last two years.

 

[tnt]

They are less behind than MSU. Who said they are up??? Subtract the adjustments in the MSU statements for the 3.9M donation made from the general fund (University Budget) to the foundation.

Please post your current statements PR for both schools....

 

[PlayerRep]

They are less behind than MSU. Who said they are up??? Subtract the adjustments in the MSU statements for the 3.9M donation made from the general fund (University Budget) to the foundation.

Please post your current statements PR for both schools....

This is what you said earlier: "Uof M is still ahead of MSU and they didn't fire anybody."

Now you say UM is "less behind" MSU.

Current statements are not yet pubicly available, but obviously the university and its fundraising arm know where they were for prior year.

 

[tnt]

Less behind is the same as farther ahead. PR, WHAT are the June 2013 numbers you must be getting them from somewhere, or are you telling us that you know because you are the fundraising arm for both Universities and that why you know.

I'm still waiting for proof of the "millions of dollars" claimed here.

 

[EverettGriz]

Griz Pony hit the nail on the head "Firings Explained". The fact that RE fired two men who held very public and high-profile positions at a major university with a two-paragraph e-mail has really gotten lost in all this. That was misconduct at it's worse if you ask me. Not being transparent is a big part of why Montana got into this mess in the first place, and that move was non-transparency at it's absolute worst. And I don't care about terms like non-renewal and pending litigation, the general public, the fan base, the tax payers of Montana, the football team, the remaining coaching staff, the student body at UM and on deserved for the president to stand up and explain why he had decided to do what he did and take questions afterwards. To me, that is one of the biggest shams of the last two years.

Well, my hunch is there was a valid reason for the lack of explanation. You'll recall that msu openly stated why the fired Kramer, and that decision cost Montana taxpayers a substantial sum. They may be public employees, but they still have privacy rights.

 

[PlayerRep]

Griz Pony hit the nail on the head "Firings Explained". The fact that RE fired two men who held very public and high-profile positions at a major university with a two-paragraph e-mail has really gotten lost in all this. That was misconduct at it's worse if you ask me. Not being transparent is a big part of why Montana got into this mess in the first place, and that move was non-transparency at it's absolute worst. And I don't care about terms like non-renewal and pending litigation, the general public, the fan base, the tax payers of Montana, the football team, the remaining coaching staff, the student body at UM and on deserved for the president to stand up and explain why he had decided to do what he did and take questions afterwards. To me, that is one of the biggest shams of the last two years.

Well, my hunch is there was a valid reason for the lack of explanation. You'll recall that msu openly stated why the fired Kramer, and that decision cost Montana taxpayers a substantial sum. They may be public employees, but they still have privacy rights.

Kramer got only a few hundred thousand in his legal action. Engstrom's silence has contributed to causing UM millions of dollars, and significant damage to the university's and his reputations. If saving a few hundred thousand dollars was of such great importance, then perhaps the two shouldn't have been fired. Their salaries and benefits through the end of their contacts were more than double that amount.

 

[PlayerRep]

Less behind is the same as farther ahead. PR, WHAT are the June 2013 numbers you must be getting them from somewhere, or are you telling us that you know because you are the fundraising arm for both Universities and that why you know.

I'm still waiting for proof of the "millions of dollars" claimed here.

If you're behind by 2 TD's and you score a TD in the 4th quarter, you're still behind. You are not "farther ahead".

 

[tnt]

Less behind is the same as farther ahead. PR, WHAT are the June 2013 numbers you must be getting them from somewhere, or are you telling us that you know because you are the fundraising arm for both Universities and that why you know.

I'm still waiting for proof of the "millions of dollars" claimed here.

If you're behind by 2 TD's and you score a TD in the 4th quarter, you're still behind. You are not "farther ahead".

Thats true. But If scored 4 touhdowns in the previous game and only scored 3 in the current game you are still ahead if the other team only scored 2. The numbers we have still show the drop in in fundraising in 2012 for UM to be less than the drop for MSU.

 

[EverettGriz]

Griz Pony hit the nail on the head "Firings Explained". The fact that RE fired two men who held very public and high-profile positions at a major university with a two-paragraph e-mail has really gotten lost in all this. That was misconduct at it's worse if you ask me. Not being transparent is a big part of why Montana got into this mess in the first place, and that move was non-transparency at it's absolute worst. And I don't care about terms like non-renewal and pending litigation, the general public, the fan base, the tax payers of Montana, the football team, the remaining coaching staff, the student body at UM and on deserved for the president to stand up and explain why he had decided to do what he did and take questions afterwards. To me, that is one of the biggest shams of the last two years.

Well, my hunch is there was a valid reason for the lack of explanation. You'll recall that msu openly stated why the fired Kramer, and that decision cost Montana taxpayers a substantial sum. They may be public employees, but they still have privacy rights.

Kramer got only a few hundred thousand in his legal action. Engstrom's silence has contributed to causing UM millions of dollars, and significant damage to the university's and his reputations. If saving a few hundred thousand dollars was of such great importance, then perhaps the two shouldn't have been fired. Their salaries and benefits through the end of their contacts were more than double that amount.

Even assuming your analysis is correct, did UM need even MORE bad publicity that the inevitable lawsuit would have brought had RE stated his reasons for nonrenewing the two men? As I stated above, while I seriously question the amount of donations withheld (the figures don't support them) I'm certainly in agreement that some donors didn't agree with the decision and that is directly impacting donations. However, protecting the reputation of the University is worth far, far more. Like his decisions or not, agree with them or not, THAT is Engstrom's job as President. It is not to make decisions to appease some donors at the expense of UM's brand value.