Griz Fans Accept Mediocrity Now

[Griz2k]

PR, and what I will say is no matter whom was in charge, without all the off field issues, RE wouldn't have had to make any of those decisions. Trust me, I am not sticking up for RE because I believe he is a spineless yes-man that is hurting UM as a whole, and the football program even more. But we all know that every time he gets in a difficult spot, he is gonna flop like an old raggedy Ann doll.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that off-field issues caused Engstrom to grossly overreact, fire Pflu/O'Day (and perhaps more), and be the main cause of the decline of UM football? Did the off-field issues cause him to offer up 4 schollies to the ncaa? I sure don't see that connection.

My point is that one doesn't happen without the other. No off-field issues and RE doesn't have to make any decisions. No RE, and we can assume someone else would have handled it differently.

Got it, but he primary cause of this was RE. No one else would have done what he did. I once read that in the history of ncaa football, a head football coach and AD had been fired at the same time only one other time. Penn St. UM's situation was about 1% of what Penn St was. Gross over-reaction and mistake by RE.

I agree with nearly everything you said there, except one thing. The primary cause were the legal issues of a few of the players that prompted the gross over-reaction. Grizindabox is correct in stating that without them, there is nothing to react to. I concur with everything else though.

 

[AZGrizFan]

And I'm going to say the largest factor in the decline was that we had players who couldn't keep their asses off the police blotter.

Everett, let's hear your explanation of how players on the police blotter contributed to the decline. Can't wait to see your explanation and to see how you show cause and effect.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Another attempt at humor? Do you seriously think Pflu and O'Day wouldn't still be here if there hadn't been a myriad of off field issues rapid-fire?

Do you think Dennison would have fired Pflu and O'Day? I don't.

Do you think there were more "myraids" of legal issues under Pflu than under Hauck?

Do you think the main reason for the decline of UM football is attributable to the firing of Pflu and O'Day?

Do you think Dennison would have over-reacted to the sexual assault stuff in the Missoulian, and let the Missoulian/Florio get away with its biased reporting for so long--as Engstrom did? I don't.

Do you think Dennison would have hired Gee as the interim AD?

Do you think Dennison would have offered up 4 schollies for 3 years to the ncaa?

Do you think word is getting around, and impacting recruiting, that UM is being especially hard on any bad behavior, moving some players along, and has taken much of the control for discipline away from the coach and moved it to a 4-person panel of administrators and faculty?

Do you think the extra scrutiny of Engstrom and administrators in screening transfers is having any impact?

Do you think Dennison would have buddied up to Pat Williams while he was bad-mouthing the football team?

What a bunch of irrelevent questions. While most of those may have been factors that exacerbated the decline AFTER the fact, the fact remains that what LED to Pflu/O'Day's firings in the first place had to do almost exclusively with (rightly or wrongly) the perceived off-field activities of several members of the football team. And Pflu's firing led DIRECTLY to the decline we've experienced now--again, exacerbated by a series of poor decisions by the President of the University which you've done a super job of documenting here.

 

[AZGrizFan]

PR, and what I will say is no matter whom was in charge, without all the off field issues, RE wouldn't have had to make any of those decisions. Trust me, I am not sticking up for RE because I believe he is a spineless yes-man that is hurting UM as a whole, and the football program even more. But we all know that every time he gets in a difficult spot, he is gonna flop like an old raggedy Ann doll.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that off-field issues caused Engstrom to grossly overreact, fire Pflu/O'Day (and perhaps more), and be the main cause of the decline of UM football? Did the off-field issues cause him to offer up 4 schollies to the ncaa? I sure don't see that connection.

My point is that one doesn't happen without the other. No off-field issues and RE doesn't have to make any decisions. No RE, and we can assume someone else would have handled it differently.

Got it, but he primary cause of this was RE. No one else would have done what he did. I once read that in the history of ncaa football, a head football coach and AD had been fired at the same time only one other time. Penn St. UM's situation was about 1% of what Penn St was. Gross over-reaction and mistake by RE.

Again though, he wasn't reacting to thin air. He was reacting to SOMETHING. Sure, most of it turned out not to be valid, but he was reacting to something. If they'd stayed out of the police blotter, in a likelihood the Griz wouldn't be in the position they're in as a team.

 

[Htowngriz]

spsyk, what do you like about Griz football? Heck, what do you like about the University of Montana?

Well, since you asked, in the last four years, tailgating primarily, because witnessing how the program has slipped during the past four years, and being around since Don Read and others had built a dynasty, it has been sad to watch.

As far as the University of Montana, since the inception of Royce Engstom, which I feel and could be wrong, he is the main issue of the the decline of the football program.

Other than, being a far left bastion of liberalism, and indoctrinating in lieu of educating, meaning critical thinking is not the agenda, ideology, liberal agenda are what is most important.

Other than that, the University of Montana is there and toloarable, I didn't go to school there, other than auditing some classes, and neither did my children, or family members, so that leaves my alligence to athletics only.

I was a contributor to the "Excellence Fund" for many years, although withdrew after the RE handling of RP and Jim O'Day

Hope that answers your questions, and hope it does not disqualify me as a fan of Grizzly Athletics in your mind, if so, tough shit, try to get over it.

It doesn't disqualify you from anything, but it does make you sound like a pompous ass who doesn't really know the definition of dynasty.

Spysk didn't come across as a pompous ass, but you did, Htown. And Spysk is correct to naming Engstrom as the largest factor.

Let's see-making sure everyone knows that he didn't go to a second rate, state-sponsored socialist indoctrination camp-check.

Making sure everyone knows he is/was a big time booster, therefore his opinions are more valid than others'-check.

 

[PlayerRep]

So you're saying that every car accident is caused by the invention of the automobile? For someone who has the guns-spoons-fat comment in all of your posts, your position on this subject is quite odd. "If there were no guns, no one would shoot someone else." Okay, I get it.

 

[PlayerRep]

Do you have an inferiority complex?

 

[spsyk]

Do you have an inferiority complex?

Well, Htowngriz ,it is apparent that you were educated, using your words " second rate state sponsored socialist indoctrination camp" glad to see that my contributions to the Excellent Fund paid off, you see grasshopper that is exactly the respond to discourse from a liberal without input to the discourse that is relevant.

They taught you well, grasshopper, it appears the only critical thinking you may use is to take your penis out of your pants before you urinate.

You wasted your parents money going to a fine institution like the University of Montana, you should have consider,ABC TRUCK DRIVING ACADEMY.

 

[horribilisfan8184]

Why do you support mediocrity? Why are you against free speech?

My read is he objects to tedium and boredom, a comment on poster self-restraint, not a call for squelching any freedoms. Now where's that dead horse emoji?

My view is that a few less posts from both of you, especially ones with nothing to do with UM football and UM, would also help the "tedium and boredom".

I guess free speech only pertains to PR.

He fell into that trap like a first year law student. Kingsfield would have barbecued him!

 

[Htowngriz]

Do you have an inferiority complex?

Well, Htowngriz ,it is apparent that you were educated, using your words " second rate state sponsored socialist indoctrination camp" glad to see that my contributions to the Excellent Fund paid off, you see grasshopper that is exactly the respond to discourse from a liberal without input to the discourse that is relevant.

They taught you well, grasshopper, it appears the only critical thinking you may use is to take your penis out of your pants before you urinate.

You wasted your parents money going to a fine institution like the University of Montana, you should have consider,ABC TRUCK DRIVING ACADEMY.

Hey, thanks! That means a lot coming from someone whose idea of critical thinking and high level discourse is parroting Fox News garbage about how the mean ol' libwals are turning our colleges into Trotzky factories.

 

[Atlanta Griz1]

And I'm going to say the largest factor in the decline was that we had players who couldn't keep their asses off the police blotter.

Everett, let's hear your explanation of how players on the police blotter contributed to the decline. Can't wait to see your explanation and to see how you show cause and effect.

Griz fans are tired of your constant spinning of the MANY non-football problems that Hauck's recruits caused. We don't need to regurgitate them one-by-one only to have you try to present "facts" which negate them spending time in jail and embarrassing our football program nationally. We got sick of being a regular on ESPN reporting the latest criminal act.

 

[horribilisfan8184]

So you're saying that every car accident is caused by the invention of the automobile? For someone who has the guns-spoons-fat comment in all of your posts, your position on this subject is quite odd. "If there were no guns, no one would shoot someone else." Okay, I get it.

No, you don't. A more apt analogy is the bailees of the car got fired by the owner because the drivers they recruited and coached kept getting accused, both correctly and incorrectly, of dinging up the fenders and putting the car in garages without permission.

 

[grizcountry420]

PR loves to get off when he gets his shit pushed in...

:lol:

 

[Atlanta Griz1]

I am sick of the dumbing-down that has enveloped Griz Nation. It happens when every season starts with "we'll be better this year", and it never happens. Most of you are into moral victories and mediocrity now. You talk about winning the Big Sky as if it is quite an accomplishment. Hell, we used to win it every year and it was a given.

Most of you have forgotten just how powerful and elite our program used to be. Teams feared us, and most of them were defeated before the first snap was taken. They KNEW they were going to lose. No longer. Nobody fears coming into Washington-Griz now.

You are living a mirage, my friends. Our program is a shell of its former self, and most of you are in denial about it. We not even CLOSE to turning this thing around.

Programs falter when the fan base stops demanding excellence, and accepts the hope of "we'll get 'em next year"!

I am tired of the excuses for being a pedestrian FCS program now. We used to have plenty of move-up threads when we were dominating. Where are they now? Hell, we can't even win our weak-assed conference, let alone dream about competing with FBS teams!

After Bear Bryant died, the Alabama football program became what we are now.....mediocre. But the Alabama fans would not settle for it. They went through several coaches until they hired the coach who could bring them back to dominance again.

I am not sure the President of this university, nor the dumbed-down fan base will keep pushing until we get back there. Allowing Delaney to destroy this program was ridiculous, yet most of you still support his three years here. We have a huge advantage over all other FCS schools.... the best stadium, the largest crowds, the best traveling fan base, etc., and yet we are not even a top 20 program any longer in a watered-down FCS division. Either get on board in demanding excellence, or start being a Bobcat fan!

There's not a lot here I disagree with except you're painting with a very broad brush to the point of stereotype. EGriz posts may not be the best place to judge this issue. If you're satisfied and post rosy posts, you're conforming to the culture of the forum's "leaders." If you post your concerns and learned opinions, which might be critical, you're a "hater." Even if you did play the game. The latter group is there, it's just not as transparent because it provides fewer posts. I associate with a lot of fans that have been with the program since it was awful, took pride in its growth and success, and now has become frustrated with the diminished desire to continue that growth trajectory. The problem started with Dennison, who loved the new revenue from FB and found creative ways to funnel it off to his pet projects rather than use it to grow the program further. This is not missed by donors, who have little confidence that their increased contributions will actually impact FB, and contributes significantly to the frustration.

That said, I'm not dismissing the work of AD Haslam to change the direction of coaching staff, to raise funding for facility growth and to pursue more aggressive scheduling. I believe he's the best we've had since Moos; I just need to see it translated into results. Same for Stitt; so far so good, but it's results that will tell the story, not hype.

I disagree 100% about Dennison being a problem. Dennison had to run the entire university, not just the football program. UM is always under-funded by the powers that be in the state. Yes, he did funnel off funds from football for other uses. Yes, the Bobcats did indeed get more state funding for their athletic programs. but Dennison did a tremendous job in running UM for many years. It flourished and grew. And our football program also flourished under him.

But Engstrom can't duplicate that success. The enroll had diminished every year since he took over. He is NOT a supporter of college athletics. He does not even care much for educating our students. What he focuses on is securing grants, and has been very good at it. But is this what UM is all about now...... research grants???? We have lost focus here at UM as to what purpose UM exists.

I have completely stopped donating to UM until they get rid of Engstrom. He is the worst thing to happen to UM in many years.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Again though, he wasn't reacting to thin air. He was reacting to SOMETHING. Sure, most of it turned out not to be valid, but he was reacting to something. If they'd stayed out of the police blotter, in a likelihood the Griz wouldn't be in the position they're in as a team.

So you're saying that every car accident is caused by the invention of the automobile? For someone who has the guns-spoons-fat comment in all of your posts, your position on this subject is quite odd. "If there were no guns, no one would shoot someone else." Okay, I get it.

Holy cow. Welcome to the Horrible Analogies club. I am the founding member, glad to have you aboard. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's really simple, PR: There IS/WAS a cause/effect relationship between high-profile police blotter activity, the subsequent firing of Pflu/O'Day, the instability caused by said firings, and the perceived decline of the program over the past 4 years. It ain't rocket science. Now, I suppose the president could have come up with some OTHER reason to fire the coach/AD in the absence of police blotter activity, but that's purely hypothetical. Fact is, if players had kept their noses clean, we'd still have Pflu AND O'Day and in all likelihood several more BSC championship flags and possibly a Natty or two.

 

[PlayerRep]

Again though, he wasn't reacting to thin air. He was reacting to SOMETHING. Sure, most of it turned out not to be valid, but he was reacting to something. If they'd stayed out of the police blotter, in a likelihood the Griz wouldn't be in the position they're in as a team.

So you're saying that every car accident is caused by the invention of the automobile? For someone who has the guns-spoons-fat comment in all of your posts, your position on this subject is quite odd. "If there were no guns, no one would shoot someone else." Okay, I get it.

Holy cow. Welcome to the Horrible Analogies club. I am the founding member, glad to have you aboard. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's really simple, PR: There IS/WAS a cause/effect relationship between high-profile police blotter activity, the subsequent firing of Pflu/O'Day, the instability caused by said firings, and the perceived decline of the program over the past 4 years. It ain't rocket science. Now, I suppose the president could have come up with some OTHER reason to fire the coach/AD in the absence of police blotter activity, but that's purely hypothetical. Fact is, if players had kept their noses clean, we'd still have Pflu AND O'Day and in all likelihood several more BSC championship flags and possibly a Natty or two.

So you're saying the spoon causes people to get fat.

 

[grizindabox]

Again though, he wasn't reacting to thin air. He was reacting to SOMETHING. Sure, most of it turned out not to be valid, but he was reacting to something. If they'd stayed out of the police blotter, in a likelihood the Griz wouldn't be in the position they're in as a team.

So you're saying that every car accident is caused by the invention of the automobile? For someone who has the guns-spoons-fat comment in all of your posts, your position on this subject is quite odd. "If there were no guns, no one would shoot someone else." Okay, I get it.

Holy cow. Welcome to the Horrible Analogies club. I am the founding member, glad to have you aboard. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's really simple, PR: There IS/WAS a cause/effect relationship between high-profile police blotter activity, the subsequent firing of Pflu/O'Day, the instability caused by said firings, and the perceived decline of the program over the past 4 years. It ain't rocket science. Now, I suppose the president could have come up with some OTHER reason to fire the coach/AD in the absence of police blotter activity, but that's purely hypothetical. Fact is, if players had kept their noses clean, we'd still have Pflu AND O'Day and in all likelihood several more BSC championship flags and possibly a Natty or two.

So you're saying the spoon causes people to get fat.

Did the spoon get arrested?

 

[cclarkblues]

Again though, he wasn't reacting to thin air. He was reacting to SOMETHING. Sure, most of it turned out not to be valid, but he was reacting to something. If they'd stayed out of the police blotter, in a likelihood the Griz wouldn't be in the position they're in as a team.

So you're saying that every car accident is caused by the invention of the automobile? For someone who has the guns-spoons-fat comment in all of your posts, your position on this subject is quite odd. "If there were no guns, no one would shoot someone else." Okay, I get it.

Holy cow. Welcome to the Horrible Analogies club. I am the founding member, glad to have you aboard. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's really simple, PR: There IS/WAS a cause/effect relationship between high-profile police blotter activity, the subsequent firing of Pflu/O'Day, the instability caused by said firings, and the perceived decline of the program over the past 4 years. It ain't rocket science. Now, I suppose the president could have come up with some OTHER reason to fire the coach/AD in the absence of police blotter activity, but that's purely hypothetical. Fact is, if players had kept their noses clean, we'd still have Pflu AND O'Day and in all likelihood several more BSC championship flags and possibly a Natty or two.

So you're saying the spoon causes people to get fat.

I don't understand your analogy. Spoons and guns are tools. They don't have free will as players do. That is one of the both wonderful and dangerous things about human beings. I'm sure there are many coaches that wish their players could be used as a tool to do with what they want. One caveat: RE IS a TOOL.

 

[PlayerRep]

The point is the RE made the decision to fire the guys. He didn't have to fire them. He didn't even have good reason to fire them, in my view (and the view of many others). The several criminal things didn't force him to fire them. Except at Penn St, no president in the history of ncaa football has fired both the coach and AD at the same time. I assume you don't think UM's situation was the 2d worst criminal situation in the history of college sports.

RE over-reacted and made a huge mistake. UM is paying for that and other of his many mistakes. Their firings shouldn't, and I say can't, be blamed on some players. RE make the huge mistake.
His poor thinking and analysis was 90% plus of the mistake, compared to a relatively low percentage by the players. Note that of all the sexual assault (from rumors to major incidents), only 1 person went to jail (or was convicted or plead guilty). Only 1 other was even charged. They were the only 2 named in the police blotter (if JJ is included), in terms of sexual assault. Just a huge over-reaction. No player who was "charged" by UM for sexual assault and got a lawyer to fight the charges, was ever tossed out of school (I was told on good authority).

 

[Huge]

spsyk, what do you like about Griz football? Heck, what do you like about the University of Montana?

Well, since you asked, in the last four years, tailgating primarily, because witnessing how the program has slipped during the past four years, and being around since Don Read and others had built a dynasty, it has been sad to watch.

As far as the University of Montana, since the inception of Royce Engstom, which I feel and could be wrong, he is the main issue of the the decline of the football program.

Other than, being a far left bastion of liberalism, and indoctrinating in lieu of educating, meaning critical thinking is not the agenda, ideology, liberal agenda are what is most important.

Other than that, the University of Montana is there and toloarable, I didn't go to school there, other than auditing some classes, and neither did my children, or family members, so that leaves my alligence to athletics only.

I was a contributor to the "Excellence Fund" for many years, although withdrew after the RE handling of RP and Jim O'Day

Hope that answers your questions, and hope it does not disqualify me as a fan of Grizzly Athletics in your mind, if so, tough shit, try to get over it.

It doesn't disqualify you from anything, but it does make you sound like a pompous ass who doesn't really know the definition of dynasty.

YES, yes! It's the liberals! The liberals hate football! Obama hates football! Now that we have zeroed in on the root of the unacceptable acceptance of mediocrity, LETS GET EM!!!!!!

 

[cclarkblues]

The point is the RE made the decision to fire the guys. He didn't have to fire them. He didn't even have good reason to fire them, in my view (and the view of many others). The several criminal things didn't force him to fire them. Except at Penn St, no president in the history of ncaa football has fired both the coach and AD at the same time. I assume you don't think UM's situation was the 2d worst criminal situation in the history of college sports.

RE over-reacted and made a huge mistake. UM is paying for that and other of his many mistakes. Their firings shouldn't, and I say can't, be blamed on some players. RE make the huge mistake.
His poor thinking and analysis was 90% plus of the mistake, compared to a relatively low percentage by the players. Note that of all the sexual assault (from rumors to major incidents), only 1 person went to jail (or was convicted or plead guilty). Only 1 other was even charged. They were the only 2 named in the police blotter (if JJ is included), in terms of sexual assault. Just a huge over-reaction. No player who was "charged" by UM for sexual assault and got a lawyer to fight the charges, was ever tossed out of school (I was told on good authority).

Agreed. You stand behind your people until all the facts are in. RE was covering his ancient and boney ass. But the spoon thing was confusing.