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Can Anyone Tell Me..................
- Thread starter ALPHAGRIZ1
- Start date
garizzalies said:
Nope, JJ's matter isn't known. There may not be anything there. One week of practice for nothing is a big deal. He may get more as more is known.
Kemp/Johnson - police caused most of the incident and police spokesman reported incorrect information. Pleading per se to disorderly conduct. Not a big deal "crime". Kemp could get more now that matter has been resolved and facts known.
Wreckless driving/Montana - a game suspension and internal discipline is not a slap on the wrist.
Wilson's final charge was minor. Missing a week or more of practice, and one game suspension, is not a slap on the wrist.
Stuberg - a 2? game suspension and internal discipline is not a slap on the wrist.
Johnson/Swink - one game suspension and internal discipline is not a slap on the wrist, especially when no charges were even brought.
Dui's - one game suspension and internal discipline is not a slap on the wrist.
it was noted by b.w. that kemp's urination in public was a citation and i offered that arrests probably isn't a good word as i'm not sure what the difference between an arrest and a citation is. the list is compiled from newspaper reports, which aren't always clear on the differentiation of the use of legal/criminal terms. so the list could be titled griz in the newspapers relating to crime. something happened and the police took action in some form.PlayerRep said:
Blgs Griz Fan
Well-known member
"griz arrests by year
2012 - 3 (donaldson, maus)
2011 - 5 (kemp, Tru johnson, middleton, montana, duncan)
2010 - 3 (badger, stuberg, wilson)
2009 - 4 (quinn, douglas, von appen, montelius)
2008 - 7 (freeman, quinn, wilson, coleman, pate, shelton, stapp)
2007 - 1 (parks)
2006 - 0
2005 - 0
players that transferred in with arrests - 5 (freeman, coleman, russum, frank, middleton)
ex-players arrested - 1 Roots
From 2005 to 2008 there were 8 arrests. Wilson was arrested but ultimately found not guilty so there may be an arguement for 7 arrests in that time period.
From 2009 to present there have been 16 arrests and counting. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Pflugrad hired as an assistant in 2009 and assumed HC in 2010. Since Pflugrad arrived the arrest count has doubled for now.
I wonder if there is a connection?
2012 - 3 (donaldson, maus)
2011 - 5 (kemp, Tru johnson, middleton, montana, duncan)
2010 - 3 (badger, stuberg, wilson)
2009 - 4 (quinn, douglas, von appen, montelius)
2008 - 7 (freeman, quinn, wilson, coleman, pate, shelton, stapp)
2007 - 1 (parks)
2006 - 0
2005 - 0
players that transferred in with arrests - 5 (freeman, coleman, russum, frank, middleton)
ex-players arrested - 1 Roots
From 2005 to 2008 there were 8 arrests. Wilson was arrested but ultimately found not guilty so there may be an arguement for 7 arrests in that time period.
From 2009 to present there have been 16 arrests and counting. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Pflugrad hired as an assistant in 2009 and assumed HC in 2010. Since Pflugrad arrived the arrest count has doubled for now.
I wonder if there is a connection?
ALPHAGRIZ1
Well-known member
I dont care if the players were arrested, prosecuted or slapped on the wrist.
UM has had more crime happen under JODs watch than any other program in the country. The fact that allegations even come up as much as they do should tip even the dumbest fan that there is an incredible problem at Montana.
Not to mention that Re/Max is comparing us to FBS programs and they have more players on their roster than we do............that just shows how much more efficient we are at committing crimes.
The real problem is that we have "fans" in this thread justifying the crime and the actions of the players so basically they are supporting the attempts at crime for wins.
As a valued member of a free and just society, I believe those people need to be arrested and prosecuted for crimes against humanity and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
UM has had more crime happen under JODs watch than any other program in the country. The fact that allegations even come up as much as they do should tip even the dumbest fan that there is an incredible problem at Montana.
Not to mention that Re/Max is comparing us to FBS programs and they have more players on their roster than we do............that just shows how much more efficient we are at committing crimes.
The real problem is that we have "fans" in this thread justifying the crime and the actions of the players so basically they are supporting the attempts at crime for wins.
As a valued member of a free and just society, I believe those people need to be arrested and prosecuted for crimes against humanity and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
ALPHAGRIZ1 said:Well I guess I gave Griz fans the benefit of the doubt that they would compare apples to apples...........and was completely overwhelmed by the power of the maroon koolaid.
So I throw out this question for those that feel there was too much leniency . What should the punishments be? Should JJ still be on the team? What about the Kemp and Sambrano situation? Should they take into account a potential pro career? What should the punishment be for DUI? Should it be the same for the off-season as it is during the season? Should there be a strict yardstick for each type of transgression or should it be on a per-case basis? Should the punishment be the same for starting a fight as it is for defending yourself?
Obviously Pflu and O'Day were not the cancers but they had to take the punishment. How should things be in the future?
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little because I noticed I sound like D2.
I like how all the sudden getgrizzy is OK with a couple of arrest per year. How about we go back to a time in the not so distant past and have one arrest every 2-3 years? I think the problem is that UM is becoming known as a tolerant school for student athletes and players with dubious backgrounds are now choosing our school.
blackfoot griz
Well-known member
Negative news sells. Seems to me you can take any subject and the "media" will focus on the negative aspect. Doesn't matter if it's the war, the economy, politics or Grizzly football. The media emphasis will usually always be on the negative aspect.
Tokyogriz
Well-known member
cclarkblues said:ALPHAGRIZ1 said:Well I guess I gave Griz fans the benefit of the doubt that they would compare apples to apples...........and was completely overwhelmed by the power of the maroon koolaid.
So I throw out this question for those that feel there was too much leniency . What should the punishments be? Should JJ still be on the team? What about the Kemp and Sambrano situation? Should they take into account a potential pro career? What should the punishment be for DUI? Should it be the same for the off-season as it is during the season? Should there be a strict yardstick for each type of transgression or should it be on a per-case basis? Should the punishment be the same for starting a fight as it is for defending yourself?
Obviously Pflu and O'Day were not the cancers but they had to take the punishment. How should things be in the future?
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little because I noticed I sound like D2.
Not that much will change. UM has done nothing wrong in the past so there is nothing to change. Peoples "Perceptions" due to the penn state child rapes and gwen florio whipping everyone into a frenzy will fade back from HYSTERIA level its at now to normal in a few months though.
The new code of conduct that UM implemented. Not actually a huge difference in alot of ways on punishments for student atheletes. JJ was punushed according to the new standards, but of course in this "Hysterical Mob" mentality of which Alpha wants leadership its not enough. Nothing short of kicking any accused students off the team and yanking their scholarships at the whim of the mob would work for him.
There are private schools like BYU that have very stringent codes for all kinds of ridiculous things. BYU kicked a kid off the team for telling someone he had intimate relations with his girlfriend. UM is not a private school though and its going to be a tough sell to get the public to agree with this sort of rules for student athletes while non athletic scholarships and regular students have their rights granted to all of us americans.
Oday and Pflu could be fired for many reasons but the reality is this time they were thrown under the bus to make Royce Engstrom look good. Nothings has really changed at UM.
SAVAGE PAW said:
I would counter with this:
Could part of the issue at hand also be the extreme amount of pressure to win the conference and get the NC as well? I know of very few programs in the FCS that has the same amount of pressure put on them on a yearly basis to achieve what the Griz are expected to do.
Add in that after the worst season in almost 20 years in 2010 the pressure to win and "return to glory" for Pflu must've been at an all time high.
For other programs, lets just say Southern Utah for example, if they have an option for a talented transfer from a JuCo but see character issues, they'll probably just pass on him. Their level of pressure and expectations put on them on a year by year basis is not the same. Where as here I believe that both Hauck and Pflu in the same situation said, OK, you can come, in the hopes to "clean up" the kid. In some cases it worked out just fine (Brent Russum for example) in others is was a big failure, and in more cases than not, it didn't work out.
cclarkblues is asking the right questions. And no matter what anybody says, there are no easy answers.
Any player who is accused of misconduct deserves some due process. The question is, what process is due? Obviously, the university doesn't need to do an investigation of a student athlete's potential misconduct that establishes proof of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt," or anything like that, but how about "a preponderance of the evidence" or "clear and convincing evidence" or some other reasonable standard?
You can't just say "no due process." That's B.S. Peoples' lives can be ruined by completely false accusations. You have to do some fact-finding and find out if there's anything to the charges, whether they're civil or criminal. And in criminal cases, like it or not, it might be completely reasonable to defer to the criminal justice system.
And, in deciding what the penalty should be, of course you have to consider: (1) the seriousness of the "offense," (2) whether the student-athlete has been in trouble in the past, (3) how the student-athlete responds to the investigation (i.e., does the individual cooperate fully, does the individual tell the truth, does the individual express a genuine intent to change his/her behavior), etc.
It's easy to say that people should be fired or not fired, that kids should be kicked off a team or not, etc. Any idiot can have an opinion on that stuff. What's hard is being in a position of responsibility to make those kinds of decisions.
It looks to me like the University needs to devote a whole lot more resources to investigating these types of matters and making educated decisions on what should be done in response. And it can't be left completely to the coaches - they don't have the time or expertise. The AD needs to be very involved in these decisions, in consultation with the coaches and the people who do the compliance work.
Like I said, it's not simple. So let's all be civil and discuss it like adults. Wait, I don't mean "adult" as in that other thread.
Any player who is accused of misconduct deserves some due process. The question is, what process is due? Obviously, the university doesn't need to do an investigation of a student athlete's potential misconduct that establishes proof of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt," or anything like that, but how about "a preponderance of the evidence" or "clear and convincing evidence" or some other reasonable standard?
You can't just say "no due process." That's B.S. Peoples' lives can be ruined by completely false accusations. You have to do some fact-finding and find out if there's anything to the charges, whether they're civil or criminal. And in criminal cases, like it or not, it might be completely reasonable to defer to the criminal justice system.
And, in deciding what the penalty should be, of course you have to consider: (1) the seriousness of the "offense," (2) whether the student-athlete has been in trouble in the past, (3) how the student-athlete responds to the investigation (i.e., does the individual cooperate fully, does the individual tell the truth, does the individual express a genuine intent to change his/her behavior), etc.
It's easy to say that people should be fired or not fired, that kids should be kicked off a team or not, etc. Any idiot can have an opinion on that stuff. What's hard is being in a position of responsibility to make those kinds of decisions.
It looks to me like the University needs to devote a whole lot more resources to investigating these types of matters and making educated decisions on what should be done in response. And it can't be left completely to the coaches - they don't have the time or expertise. The AD needs to be very involved in these decisions, in consultation with the coaches and the people who do the compliance work.
Like I said, it's not simple. So let's all be civil and discuss it like adults. Wait, I don't mean "adult" as in that other thread.
What infractions are "acceptable" and what infractions requier strong and swift reprisal is a complicated subject.
The criminal justice system has it's own perameters and protocols that take time. Nothing much happens rapidly. Do you wait for a conviction or is an allegation sufficient? If actions are taken did they violate a players right to privacy and expectation of innocence until proven guilty? The loss of scholarship is severe if the wrong action is taken.
On the other hand, is the mere mention that a player did something that brings embarrasment to the team enough for severe action?
These are hard questions to answer and be fair and balanced. I suspect that the HUGE spectrum of social behavior and acceptance on this board will make answering those questions impossible. And they will be much more difficult to answer once the season begins and actual games are impacted by actions that are taken against players.
I cannot imagine the pressure that a new coach will have to endure by walking that thin line of winning the BSC and at least two games in the playoffs and having a zero tollernce to negative public behavior. I cannot even imagine putting my career in the hands of today's student athletes. Even if 98% of the players are doing everything right the other 2% can make your life miserable by committing one atrocious act or even a minor act by one very important player that can impact the prospect of winning or losing.
God bless you coaches that choose to take on this endeavor. And may God bless you with lots of young men that have the leadership abilities to be the mentors that you will need to keep every young man focused and on the straight path.
The criminal justice system has it's own perameters and protocols that take time. Nothing much happens rapidly. Do you wait for a conviction or is an allegation sufficient? If actions are taken did they violate a players right to privacy and expectation of innocence until proven guilty? The loss of scholarship is severe if the wrong action is taken.
On the other hand, is the mere mention that a player did something that brings embarrasment to the team enough for severe action?
These are hard questions to answer and be fair and balanced. I suspect that the HUGE spectrum of social behavior and acceptance on this board will make answering those questions impossible. And they will be much more difficult to answer once the season begins and actual games are impacted by actions that are taken against players.
I cannot imagine the pressure that a new coach will have to endure by walking that thin line of winning the BSC and at least two games in the playoffs and having a zero tollernce to negative public behavior. I cannot even imagine putting my career in the hands of today's student athletes. Even if 98% of the players are doing everything right the other 2% can make your life miserable by committing one atrocious act or even a minor act by one very important player that can impact the prospect of winning or losing.
God bless you coaches that choose to take on this endeavor. And may God bless you with lots of young men that have the leadership abilities to be the mentors that you will need to keep every young man focused and on the straight path.
GRZFTBL
Well-known member
ALPHAGRIZ1 said:
I don't/didn't justify any crime. I wish people ("fans") would let the legal system do it's thing before burying someone.
If a kid is arrested--suspended until the outcome. If found guilty, punish accordingly (DUI "X" # games, caught w/ drugs "X" # games, stealing "X" # games, GONE, etc)
If found NOT guilty, let them come back (Jimmy Wilson).
As for JOD, he's done a lot more good for UM than harm. He will be missed.
Yes we live in the time of the Penn State scandal, but it wasn't long ago that we had the Duke Lacrosse players case, and an over zealous prosecuter inciting the lynch mob lost his law license over that.
Obviously due process exists somewhere in between, and UM had an intelligent policy that was to be the model for moving forward, and no sooner than a new policy announcement, another announcement of the firings.
Obviously due process exists somewhere in between, and UM had an intelligent policy that was to be the model for moving forward, and no sooner than a new policy announcement, another announcement of the firings.
