Can’t Compete at The Highest Level

[Coach]

This thread is f###[#] stupid.

Why?

Because we barely compete at this level. All the good teams left and we are still barely in the top 10. Not to mention that until NDSU moves on everyone else is playing for second place. We don't have the talent, money, fanbase or facilities

 

[EverettGriz]

Why?

Because we barely compete at this level. All the good teams left and we are still barely in the top 10. Not to mention that until NDSU moves on everyone else is playing for second place. We don't have the talent, money, fanbase or facilities

Okay, thanks for your input Coach McCaffery.

 

[kemajic]

There are playoffs at the highest level now, so this stupid f###[#] argument no longer means a thing numbnuts. Maybe all the teams that never make the D1-AA playoffs should just move down??? [#]f### it, let’s just go NAIA so we are guaranteed wins regardless of the quality of win, and bonus, then we will have an all Montana f###[#] roster!!

That was obvious sarcasm, but your point is still valid. I always thought that going to a dozen FBS qualifiers would create a legit "big boy" playoff. We still have to see how it plays out (sooner rather than later, hopefully), but that seems like a pretty good number. Sure, most of the other slots will be filled by contenders from the P5 conferences. Why not? The best 12 teams should be in the mix. You're G5 and want in? Win lots of tough games and move up in the power rankings.

And let's face it. At least a third (half?) of the bids to the FCS playoffs are little more than "participation ribbons" for conferences whose teams have little or no chance to advance. (It's not like basketball, where a team can get hot, go on a run and be the Cinderella.) How many people on here thought it was a good idea when the FCS playoffs went to 24 teams?

Crazy. 12 is a good number. Four seeds, four games first week. Give an example of a team not in the top 12 that made any kind of run at the NC.

 

[mthoopsfan]

That was obvious sarcasm, but your point is still valid. I always thought that going to a dozen FBS qualifiers would create a legit "big boy" playoff. We still have to see how it plays out (sooner rather than later, hopefully), but that seems like a pretty good number. Sure, most of the other slots will be filled by contenders from the P5 conferences. Why not? The best 12 teams should be in the mix. You're G5 and want in? Win lots of tough games and move up in the power rankings.

And let's face it. At least a third (half?) of the bids to the FCS playoffs are little more than "participation ribbons" for conferences whose teams have little or no chance to advance. (It's not like basketball, where a team can get hot, go on a run and be the Cinderella.) How many people on here thought it was a good idea when the FCS playoffs went to 24 teams?

Crazy. 12 is a good number. Four seeds, four games first week. Give an example of a team not in the top 12 that made any kind of run at the NC.

I don't think playoffs, whether in fcs, fbs, NCAA basketball, or high school sports, are about just picking teams who will eventually be the champion. Participation, and being in a situation to hunt for a spot, are also huge. I'm not talking about ribbons. Jeez, look at the excitement of high school tournaments, which you and I grew up with. Some of my fondest memories growing up, are of hoops tournaments, even when I was 5 and getting to go to the District 2 Class C tourney in Sidney, and staying at the LaLonde Hotel. I recall watching all of the players, cheerleaders, dancers/twirlers, when I saw them up close. Everything about them. And all of them who noticed me were nice to me.

 

[AZGrizFan]

That was obvious sarcasm, but your point is still valid. I always thought that going to a dozen FBS qualifiers would create a legit "big boy" playoff. We still have to see how it plays out (sooner rather than later, hopefully), but that seems like a pretty good number. Sure, most of the other slots will be filled by contenders from the P5 conferences. Why not? The best 12 teams should be in the mix. You're G5 and want in? Win lots of tough games and move up in the power rankings.

And let's face it. At least a third (half?) of the bids to the FCS playoffs are little more than "participation ribbons" for conferences whose teams have little or no chance to advance. (It's not like basketball, where a team can get hot, go on a run and be the Cinderella.) How many people on here thought it was a good idea when the FCS playoffs went to 24 teams?

Crazy. 12 is a good number. Four seeds, four games first week. Give an example of a team not in the top 12 that made any kind of run at the NC.

Completely agree. There’s ZERO difference between the 12 in FBS and the 24 in FCS. The selection committee will still lean heavily towards the P5 and the BSC, MVFC and CAA in the FCS.

 

[Spanky2]

Crazy. 12 is a good number. Four seeds, four games first week. Give an example of a team not in the top 12 that made any kind of run at the NC.

I don't think playoffs, whether in fcs, fbs, NCAA basketball, or high school sports, are about just picking teams who will eventually be the champion. Participation, and being in a situation to hunt for a spot, are also huge. I'm not talking about ribbons. Jeez, look at the excitement of high school tournaments, which you and I grew up with. Some of my fondest memories growing up, are of hoops tournaments, even when I was 5 and getting to go to the District 2 Class C tourney in Sidney, and staying at the LaLonde Hotel. I recall watching all of the players, cheerleaders, dancers/twirlers, when I saw them up close. Everything about them. And all of them who noticed me were nice to me.

Great memories. I worked for LaLonde Construction. Knew family members.

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

Crazy. 12 is a good number. Four seeds, four games first week. Give an example of a team not in the top 12 that made any kind of run at the NC.

I don't think playoffs, whether in fcs, fbs, NCAA basketball, or high school sports, are about just picking teams who will eventually be the champion. Participation, and being in a situation to hunt for a spot, are also huge. I'm not talking about ribbons. Jeez, look at the excitement of high school tournaments, which you and I grew up with. Some of my fondest memories growing up, are of hoops tournaments, even when I was 5 and getting to go to the District 2 Class C tourney in Sidney, and staying at the LaLonde Hotel. I recall watching all of the players, cheerleaders, dancers/twirlers, when I saw them up close. Everything about them. And all of them who noticed me were nice to me.

I kind of hate to say this, but you're kind of describing the Bowl atmosphere. Or the World's Largest Floating Cocktail Party. Or a game at Neyland Stadium.

Damn, I love good tailgates! Oxford! The time spent on the beach with friends and family the two or three weeks before the Bowl game.

 

[mthoopsfan]

I don't think playoffs, whether in fcs, fbs, NCAA basketball, or high school sports, are about just picking teams who will eventually be the champion. Participation, and being in a situation to hunt for a spot, are also huge. I'm not talking about ribbons. Jeez, look at the excitement of high school tournaments, which you and I grew up with. Some of my fondest memories growing up, are of hoops tournaments, even when I was 5 and getting to go to the District 2 Class C tourney in Sidney, and staying at the LaLonde Hotel. I recall watching all of the players, cheerleaders, dancers/twirlers, when I saw them up close. Everything about them. And all of them who noticed me were nice to me.

Great memories. I worked for LaLonde Construction. Knew family members.

I don't know anything about the family. Just recall the hotel. I loved Sidney. It was such a big town to me. The Richland county fair was the most exciting event of the summer. The tourneys. All before the Bakken. Met a couple cute twin girls, probably about high school class of '70 or so. They had a nice house on edge of town. I slept in their boat one night, probably after a fair night.

 

[UncleP]

Let us also not forget about the super exciting recruiting opportunities we will have when we move up. Seriously, what top recruit wouldn’t be falling all over themselves to get to Missoula to collect that $13 in NIL money from Orange Street Food Farm!

Are you honestly suggesting NIL opportunities would be less attractive if we moved up? That would be a new take about which I'd be interested in hearing more.

One of the best parts of being a fan of Montana Football is the possibility of going to the Natty almost every year. Hope is a powerful and enjoyable thing.

Competing for a national championship at the next level would require next level talent. Citing a few games being won by lower level teams does in no way mean a program or a conference can compete at the next level without next level talent.

Recruiting between FBS and FCS are two completely different animals. Like it or not NIL money is now a huge part of recruiting at the next level, not so much for FCS. At our level kids are just trying to make a team to play the game they love. FBS players drop down to be able to get playing time to keep their football dreams alive. FBS top level talent have now become business men wanting to be paid. I just can’t see this community being able to compete financially to acquire the players needed to contend for a national championship in the FBS.

If we ever move up I’ll still be the same crazed fan but my hope won’t be that we have a shot at the Natty. My hope will be that maybe we can win a game against a P5 team and “shock” the sports world. That’s just not as fun.

 

[EverettGriz]

Are you honestly suggesting NIL opportunities would be less attractive if we moved up? That would be a new take about which I'd be interested in hearing more.

One of the best parts of being a fan of Montana Football is the possibility of going to the Natty almost every year. Hope is a powerful and enjoyable thing.

Competing for a national championship at the next level would require next level talent. Citing a few games being won by lower level teams does in no way mean a program or a conference can compete at the next level without next level talent.

Recruiting between FBS and FCS are two completely different animals. Like it or not NIL money is now a huge part of recruiting at the next level, not so much for FCS. At our level kids are just trying to make a team to play the game they love. FBS players drop down to be able to get playing time to keep their football dreams alive. FBS top level talent have now become business men wanting to be paid. I just can’t see this community being able to compete financially to acquire the players needed to contend for a national championship in the FBS.

If we ever move up I’ll still be the same crazed fan but my hope won’t be that we have a shot at the Natty. My hope will be that maybe we can win a game against a P5 team and “shock” the sports world. That’s just not as fun.

I understand your position here. By that token, I must assume you are in favor of UM moving to DII in every other sport (MBB, WBB, softball, soccer, track, etc) since none of those programs have a legitimate shot at winning a national title.

 

[Spanky2]

Are you honestly suggesting NIL opportunities would be less attractive if we moved up? That would be a new take about which I'd be interested in hearing more.

One of the best parts of being a fan of Montana Football is the possibility of going to the Natty almost every year. Hope is a powerful and enjoyable thing.

Competing for a national championship at the next level would require next level talent. Citing a few games being won by lower level teams does in no way mean a program or a conference can compete at the next level without next level talent.

Recruiting between FBS and FCS are two completely different animals. Like it or not NIL money is now a huge part of recruiting at the next level, not so much for FCS. At our level kids are just trying to make a team to play the game they love. FBS players drop down to be able to get playing time to keep their football dreams alive. FBS top level talent have now become business men wanting to be paid. I just can’t see this community being able to compete financially to acquire the players needed to contend for a national championship in the FBS.

If we ever move up I’ll still be the same crazed fan but my hope won’t be that we have a shot at the Natty. My hope will be that maybe we can win a game against a P5 team and “shock” the sports world. That’s just not as fun.

My hope will be a conference championship against more talented teams and the opportunity to win a national championship against the best. I think you are short changing our ability to raise substantial NIL funding——be reminded that our potential contacts aren’t limited to the Missoula city limits.

 

[Berkeley_Griz]

Are you honestly suggesting NIL opportunities would be less attractive if we moved up? That would be a new take about which I'd be interested in hearing more.

One of the best parts of being a fan of Montana Football is the possibility of going to the Natty almost every year. Hope is a powerful and enjoyable thing.

Competing for a national championship at the next level would require next level talent. Citing a few games being won by lower level teams does in no way mean a program or a conference can compete at the next level without next level talent.

Recruiting between FBS and FCS are two completely different animals. Like it or not NIL money is now a huge part of recruiting at the next level, not so much for FCS. At our level kids are just trying to make a team to play the game they love. FBS players drop down to be able to get playing time to keep their football dreams alive. FBS top level talent have now become business men wanting to be paid. I just can’t see this community being able to compete financially to acquire the players needed to contend for a national championship in the FBS.

If we ever move up I’ll still be the same crazed fan but my hope won’t be that we have a shot at the Natty. My hope will be that maybe we can win a game against a P5 team and “shock” the sports world. That’s just not as fun.

I think that pretty much encapsulates the argument - do you value having the opportunity to actually compete for championships or not. If you do, you want to stay FCS. If you don't, you may prefer FBS. Both have their upsides - the potential for a championship on one hand, or the potential for more games against "bigger" opponents (in the sense that Wyoming or Colorado State would be bigger opponents with a larger fanbase).

I'll enjoy it either way, and have no real preference. Though FBS football, especially at the P5 level, is becoming less and less fun in some respects (that is, if you value the distinctions that separate college football from the NFL).

 

[Berkeley_Griz]

One of the best parts of being a fan of Montana Football is the possibility of going to the Natty almost every year. Hope is a powerful and enjoyable thing.

Competing for a national championship at the next level would require next level talent. Citing a few games being won by lower level teams does in no way mean a program or a conference can compete at the next level without next level talent.

Recruiting between FBS and FCS are two completely different animals. Like it or not NIL money is now a huge part of recruiting at the next level, not so much for FCS. At our level kids are just trying to make a team to play the game they love. FBS players drop down to be able to get playing time to keep their football dreams alive. FBS top level talent have now become business men wanting to be paid. I just can’t see this community being able to compete financially to acquire the players needed to contend for a national championship in the FBS.

If we ever move up I’ll still be the same crazed fan but my hope won’t be that we have a shot at the Natty. My hope will be that maybe we can win a game against a P5 team and “shock” the sports world. That’s just not as fun.

My hope will be a conference championship against more talented teams and the opportunity to win a national championship against the best. I think you are short changing our ability to raise substantial NIL funding——be reminded that our potential contacts aren’t limited to the Missoula city limits.

There is absolutely no chance, none whatsoever, that Montana could ever win a FBS national championship. So if you value playing for a national championship, you simply have to accept that is forever out of the cards at FBS. I'm not saying that's a bad position to take - FBS has its own advantages - but a natty is not anything remotely close to feasible for us at that level. In reality, it's not really feasible for about 80% of FBS programs absent some miracle makeover of their program.

To win a national title in FBS, some analysis pretty clearly shows you need to average a top 5 recruiting class for years. Clemson bucked this trend but still recruited top 10-ish classes. Not only do we simply not have a recruiting base to stock up on (look at the geography of who's won FBS titles in the modern era), but we will absolutely never compete in NIL. Ever. It's not an argument. We don't have the fanbase, we don't have the population, etc. Quarterbacks go for million dollar contracts out of high school. Schools like Texas Tech, who have never come remotely close to sniffing a national title despite being the most talent-rich state in the country, guarantees all players a minimum NIL payment of $25,000 apiece and it is absolutely small potatoes compared to the schools who can compete.

All that to say, if you support FBS, more power to you. Comes with some great upsides. But if you're doing so in part because you think Montana can compete for titles at that level and go toe to toe in NIL, you're severely mistaken. I, as I've said, am fine with FCS or FBS. They each have their advantages, but they're very different advantages.

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

One of the best parts of being a fan of Montana Football is the possibility of going to the Natty almost every year. Hope is a powerful and enjoyable thing.

Competing for a national championship at the next level would require next level talent. Citing a few games being won by lower level teams does in no way mean a program or a conference can compete at the next level without next level talent.

Recruiting between FBS and FCS are two completely different animals. Like it or not NIL money is now a huge part of recruiting at the next level, not so much for FCS. At our level kids are just trying to make a team to play the game they love. FBS players drop down to be able to get playing time to keep their football dreams alive. FBS top level talent have now become business men wanting to be paid. I just can’t see this community being able to compete financially to acquire the players needed to contend for a national championship in the FBS.

If we ever move up I’ll still be the same crazed fan but my hope won’t be that we have a shot at the Natty. My hope will be that maybe we can win a game against a P5 team and “shock” the sports world. That’s just not as fun.

I think that pretty much encapsulates the argument - do you value having the opportunity to actually compete for championships or not. If you do, you want to stay FCS. If you don't, you may prefer FBS. Both have their upsides - the potential for a championship on one hand, or the potential for more games against "bigger" opponents (in the sense that Wyoming or Colorado State would be bigger opponents with a larger fanbase).

I'll enjoy it either way, and have no real reference. Though FBS football, especially at the P5 level, is becoming less and less fun in some respects (that is, if you value the distinctions that separate college football from the NFL).

I truly appreciate what you've said. College football seems to be getting away from the old cheer for my school and alma mater for a variety of reasons I don't understand. Why cheer for a school you've never taken a single class from? I just don't get it. Championships? Podunk football, to me, is little more than participation ribbons or trophies.

But at least we have a team and we can all go and act important. Then, go home and tell mommy you got to see the president and you even bought him a drink...

 

[Berkeley_Griz]

I think that pretty much encapsulates the argument - do you value having the opportunity to actually compete for championships or not. If you do, you want to stay FCS. If you don't, you may prefer FBS. Both have their upsides - the potential for a championship on one hand, or the potential for more games against "bigger" opponents (in the sense that Wyoming or Colorado State would be bigger opponents with a larger fanbase).

I'll enjoy it either way, and have no real reference. Though FBS football, especially at the P5 level, is becoming less and less fun in some respects (that is, if you value the distinctions that separate college football from the NFL).

Why cheer for a school you've never taken a single class from?..

I personally don't understand cheering for teams you have no connection to, but I suppose I may feel differently if I hadn't attended universities with teams, as plenty of people do, and was nonetheless a fan of college football. Although really, I cheer for UM because they're my employer, not because I'm a grad, so maybe I fall into that category. But UM signing my checks feels like a tangible connection. Then I also cheer for/ watch the three universities where my degrees come from (though really I only reliably watch 1 of those).

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Are you honestly suggesting NIL opportunities would be less attractive if we moved up? That would be a new take about which I'd be interested in hearing more.

One of the best parts of being a fan of Montana Football is the possibility of going to the Natty almost every year. Hope is a powerful and enjoyable thing.

Competing for a national championship at the next level would require next level talent. Citing a few games being won by lower level teams does in no way mean a program or a conference can compete at the next level without next level talent.

Recruiting between FBS and FCS are two completely different animals. Like it or not NIL money is now a huge part of recruiting at the next level, not so much for FCS. At our level kids are just trying to make a team to play the game they love. FBS players drop down to be able to get playing time to keep their football dreams alive. FBS top level talent have now become business men wanting to be paid. I just can’t see this community being able to compete financially to acquire the players needed to contend for a national championship in the FBS.

If we ever move up I’ll still be the same crazed fan but my hope won’t be that we have a shot at the Natty. My hope will be that maybe we can win a game against a P5 team and “shock” the sports world. That’s just not as fun.

I wonder what App State fans think. Do you think they'd trade their position for some more cracks at the FCS crown?

For me, I suppose that the fun comes from watching players at the university from which I graduated play football against other universities. NCs are great, and I wish we'd win one every year in FCS. But I don't derive a significant portion of my enjoyment from the "possibility" of an FCS NC. I'd like us to play on a larger stage (where we belong), and I truly don't understand the "what's the point if we can't win the NC?" mindset.

As far as NIL, there are more FBS programs that cannot compete with top P5 programs in that arena than there are who can. I don't see 80+ teams knocking on the hatch to get down to the FCS ranks.

 

[Spanky2]

My hope will be a conference championship against more talented teams and the opportunity to win a national championship against the best. I think you are short changing our ability to raise substantial NIL funding——be reminded that our potential contacts aren’t limited to the Missoula city limits.

There is absolutely no chance, none whatsoever, that Montana could ever win a FBS national championship. So if you value playing for a national championship, you simply have to accept that is forever out of the cards at FBS. I'm not saying that's a bad position to take - FBS has its own advantages - but a natty is not anything remotely close to feasible for us at that level. In reality, it's not really feasible for about 80% of FBS programs absent some miracle makeover of their program.

To win a national title in FBS, some analysis pretty clearly shows you need to average a top 5 recruiting class for years. Clemson bucked this trend but still recruited top 10-ish classes. Not only do we simply not have a recruiting base to stock up on (look at the geography of who's won FBS titles in the modern era), but we will absolutely never compete in NIL. Ever. It's not an argument. We don't have the fanbase, we don't have the population, etc. Quarterbacks go for million dollar contracts out of high school. Schools like Texas Tech, who have never come remotely close to sniffing a national title despite being the most talent-rich state in the country, guarantees all players a minimum NIL payment of $25,000 apiece and it is absolutely small potatoes compared to the schools who can compete.

All that to say, if you support FBS, more power to you. Comes with some great upsides. But if you're doing so in part because you think Montana can compete for titles at that level and go toe to toe in NIL, you're severely mistaken. I, as I've said, am fine with FCS or FBS. They each have their advantages, but they're very different advantages.

You make many absolute, final statements. I’m curious. What chance did you give Montana when we played Washington last year? Probably zero. Please consider that I said my hope is to win a conference championship(Mountain West) and I do think that is feasible. Do you agree? Further, I said my hope is to have the opportunity to win a national FBS championship. That language is a bit different meaning than what you conveyed. We know(You should) that strange, unplanned events occur in a playoff, tournament draw, so absolutely, I believe Montana could win a national championship. Will it happen? Maybe not. Is it possible? Absolutely Yes! Isn’t that what athletic competition is about?

 

[Berkeley_Griz]

There is absolutely no chance, none whatsoever, that Montana could ever win a FBS national championship. So if you value playing for a national championship, you simply have to accept that is forever out of the cards at FBS. I'm not saying that's a bad position to take - FBS has its own advantages - but a natty is not anything remotely close to feasible for us at that level. In reality, it's not really feasible for about 80% of FBS programs absent some miracle makeover of their program.

To win a national title in FBS, some analysis pretty clearly shows you need to average a top 5 recruiting class for years. Clemson bucked this trend but still recruited top 10-ish classes. Not only do we simply not have a recruiting base to stock up on (look at the geography of who's won FBS titles in the modern era), but we will absolutely never compete in NIL. Ever. It's not an argument. We don't have the fanbase, we don't have the population, etc. Quarterbacks go for million dollar contracts out of high school. Schools like Texas Tech, who have never come remotely close to sniffing a national title despite being the most talent-rich state in the country, guarantees all players a minimum NIL payment of $25,000 apiece and it is absolutely small potatoes compared to the schools who can compete.

All that to say, if you support FBS, more power to you. Comes with some great upsides. But if you're doing so in part because you think Montana can compete for titles at that level and go toe to toe in NIL, you're severely mistaken. I, as I've said, am fine with FCS or FBS. They each have their advantages, but they're very different advantages.

You make many absolute, final statements. I’m curious. What chance did you give Montana when we played Washington last year? Probably zero. Please consider that I said my hope is to win a conference championship(Mountain West) and I do think that is feasible. Do you agree? Further, I said my hope is to have the opportunity to win a national FBS championship. That language is a bit different meaning than what you conveyed. We know(You should) that strange, unplanned events occur in a playoff, tournament draw, so absolutely, I believe Montana could win a national championship. Will it happen? Maybe not. Is it possible? Absolutely Yes! Isn’t that what athletic competition is about?

I figured we had a 5% chance or so to beat UW last year, maybe less, but certainly not impossible.

I agree that if we moved FBS, winning a (in theory) MWC championship would occasionally be feasible, and would be the goal. And would be fun and rewarding and all of that.

If you want to compete for a FBS national title in the sense of every once in a while placing as the 6th auto-bid for a conference champ, sure that could happen (all of it line up) maybe once every decade or two. But actually win a FBS championship? No, never, it is literally not remotely possible. So I'm just saying that anyone who wants FBS has to accept that national titles are completely a thing of the past (as I assume most do).

 

[Spanky2]

You make many absolute, final statements. I’m curious. What chance did you give Montana when we played Washington last year? Probably zero. Please consider that I said my hope is to win a conference championship(Mountain West) and I do think that is feasible. Do you agree? Further, I said my hope is to have the opportunity to win a national FBS championship. That language is a bit different meaning than what you conveyed. We know(You should) that strange, unplanned events occur in a playoff, tournament draw, so absolutely, I believe Montana could win a national championship. Will it happen? Maybe not. Is it possible? Absolutely Yes! Isn’t that what athletic competition is about?

I figured we had a 5% chance or so to beat UW last year, maybe less, but certainly not impossible.

I agree that if we moved FBS, winning a (in theory) MWC championship would occasionally be feasible, and would be the goal. And would be fun and rewarding and all of that.

If you want to compete for a FBS national title in the sense of every once in a while placing as the 6th auto-bid for a conference champ, sure that could happen (all of it line up) maybe once every decade or two. But actually win a FBS championship? No, never, it is literally not remotely possible. So I'm just saying that anyone who wants FBS has to accept that national titles are completely a thing of the past (as I assume most do).

There you go again——never, not remotely possible! Most people would agree with you. I don’t.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Meh, things can change over time, and are. Agree that it’s an extremely long shot. That said, I know at least one way to 100% guarantee that we never sniff the FBS playoffs, and it’s really easy because we’re already doing it.