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Can’t Compete at The Highest Level

Berkeley_Griz said:
CatGrad-UMGradStu said:
Why cheer for a school you've never taken a single class from?..

I personally don't understand cheering for teams you have no connection to, but I suppose I may feel differently if I hadn't attended universities with teams, as plenty of people do, and was nonetheless a fan of college football. Although really, I cheer for UM because they're my employer, not because I'm a grad, so maybe I fall into that category. But UM signing my checks feels like a tangible connection. Then I also cheer for/ watch the three universities where my degrees come from (though really I only reliably watch 1 of those).

That makes complete sense. When Jerry Allen and Randy Kamphaus were in Athens, it was expected all faculty would be in Sanford Stadium gameday. I'm referring to other individuals however. I don't understand why an individual with no affiliation to a school becomes a huge fan.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
I truly don't understand the "what's the point if we can't win the NC?" mindset.
I call it “The B.J. Paradigm”.
It’s like being afraid of marrying-up because you may never get a bj again. Everything else would be better, the life station of you and your entire family would improve, and you could all move to the nice neighborhood, but there’s just this one small catch.
It’s super selfish, really.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
Meh, things can change over time, and are. Agree that it’s an extremely long shot. That said, I know at least one way to 100% guarantee that we never sniff the FBS playoffs, and it’s really easy because we’re already doing it.
We have been in FCS 59 years and have won two NC. Two! I don’t know why anyone is that concerned. I would think the opportunity exists to match that record!
 
garizzalies said:
CDAGRIZ said:
I truly don't understand the "what's the point if we can't win the NC?" mindset.
I call it “The B.J. Paradigm”.
It’s like being afraid of marrying-up because you may never get a bj again. Everything else would be better, the life station of you and your entire family would improve, and you could all move to the nice neighborhood, but there’s just this one small catch.
It’s super selfish, really.

My view is that it's not not having a chance to win a national championship; it's not having chance to participate in the playoffs.
 
Berkeley_Griz said:
Spanky2 said:
My hope will be a conference championship against more talented teams and the opportunity to win a national championship against the best. I think you are short changing our ability to raise substantial NIL funding——be reminded that our potential contacts aren’t limited to the Missoula city limits.

There is absolutely no chance, none whatsoever, that Montana could ever win a FBS national championship. So if you value playing for a national championship, you simply have to accept that is forever out of the cards at FBS. I'm not saying that's a bad position to take - FBS has its own advantages - but a natty is not anything remotely close to feasible for us at that level. In reality, it's not really feasible for about 80% of FBS programs absent some miracle makeover of their program.

In the FBS playoff era (2014-2021) the following teams have been represented:

Alabama * * * * * * (3 NC’s)
Clemson * * * * * (2 NC’s)
Oklahoma * * *
Ohio State * * * (1 NC)
Georgia * (1 NC)
Notre Dame *
Oregon
Florida State
Washington
LSU (1 NC)
Michigan State
Michigan
Cincinnati

Just 13 different schools in 8 years (spanning 32 playoff slots). There are 131 FBS schools, so right at 10% have been represented in the playoff era (and two of those new ones were just THIS year in Cincinnati and Michigan, so before that it was just 11 schools in 7 years). Point being if you’re not on THAT short list, you probably don’t have any shot at the playoffs, despite being a really, really good P5 school. Penn State, Wisconsin, Oklahoma State, Florida, Auburn, USC, UCLA nor any other number of “blue bloods” have sniffed the playoffs since their inception. That field will obviously increase now that they’ve enlarged the playoffs to 12 schools. Will they eventually go to 24, just like FCS? If they did, would that change anybody’s minds as to our chances at making a playoff?

If you did a similar study in the FCS, you’d find the same thing. Year after year, the vast majority of the slots are occupied by the same teams from the same conferences while 90% of FCS has zero shot at the playoffs and less than zero chance of a national title. Do those 90% kid themselves into thinking they have a chance? Hell, there was a time not so long ago when Griz fans considered a playoff berth the bare minimum and our freaking BIRTHRIGHT. And yet here we sit going on 21 years since our 2nd (and last) national title, and 13 years since we even sniffed the NC game. And in fact, while NINETY ONE different current FCS schools have competed in the playoffs since 1978 EVERY FCS National Title has been won by one of just 14 different schools (of those still in FCS).

so at the end of the day, there’s really not a shred of difference between the two levels, other than the players and the amount of money/notoriety.

It really just boils down to do we want to continue be a big(ish) fish in a small (and getting smaller) pond, or do we want to be prepared and plan to run with the big dogs should the chance ever present itself?
 
garizzalies said:
CDAGRIZ said:
I truly don't understand the "what's the point if we can't win the NC?" mindset.
I call it “The B.J. Paradigm”.
It’s like being afraid of marrying-up because you may never get a bj again. Everything else would be better, the life station of you and your entire family would improve, and you could all move to the nice neighborhood, but there’s just this one small catch.
It’s super selfish, really.

Is a life without BJs really a life worth living though?
 
AZGrizFan said:
Berkeley_Griz said:
There is absolutely no chance, none whatsoever, that Montana could ever win a FBS national championship. So if you value playing for a national championship, you simply have to accept that is forever out of the cards at FBS. I'm not saying that's a bad position to take - FBS has its own advantages - but a natty is not anything remotely close to feasible for us at that level. In reality, it's not really feasible for about 80% of FBS programs absent some miracle makeover of their program.

It really just boils down to do we want to continue be a big(ish) fish in a small (and getting smaller) pond, or do we want to be prepared and plan to run with the big dogs should the chance ever present itself?

Sure - just depends on what people value - getting to play for a championship, or getting to play for a low-tier bowl game (or maybe once in every great while being awarded a playoff birth where you get shellacked by Alabama or Georgia or whatever semi-pro team).

Advantages either way. But of course none of it matters if no FBS conference is interested in us. I don't suspect any are, especially not now that the MWC has a very good chance of landing a couple PAC teams if it crumbles any further.
 
Berkeley_Griz said:
AZGrizFan said:
It really just boils down to do we want to continue be a big(ish) fish in a small (and getting smaller) pond, or do we want to be prepared and plan to run with the big dogs should the chance ever present itself?

Sure - just depends on what people value - getting to play for a championship, or getting to play for a low-tier bowl game (or maybe once in every great while being awarded a playoff birth where you get shellacked by Alabama or Georgia or whatever semi-pro team).

Advantages either way. But of course none of it matters if no FBS conference is interested in us. I don't suspect any are, especially not now that the MWC has a very good chance of landing a couple PAC teams if it crumbles any further.

You are a positive gentleman!
 
Spanky2 said:
Berkeley_Griz said:
Sure - just depends on what people value - getting to play for a championship, or getting to play for a low-tier bowl game (or maybe once in every great while being awarded a playoff birth where you get shellacked by Alabama or Georgia or whatever semi-pro team).

Advantages either way. But of course none of it matters if no FBS conference is interested in us. I don't suspect any are, especially not now that the MWC has a very good chance of landing a couple PAC teams if it crumbles any further.

You are a positive gentleman!

I honestly don't mean to sound negative. I'm realistic about what the advantages are to either FCS or FBS. They're different, and I think anyone who strongly supports one way or the other likely values very different things. As I've stated, I'll enjoy either way and have no strong opinion on what UM should do (and needless to say, my opinion matters not the tiniest little bit to the outcome of the dilemma).
 
mthoopsfan said:
garizzalies said:
I call it “The B.J. Paradigm”.
It’s like being afraid of marrying-up because you may never get a bj again. Everything else would be better, the life station of you and your entire family would improve, and you could all move to the nice neighborhood, but there’s just this one small catch.
It’s super selfish, really.

My view is that it's not not having a chance to win a national championship; it's not having chance to participate in the playoffs.

Opposition to moving up has evolved. Historically, many opposed because we wouldn’t have a chance to be in the playoffs. Now, it’s the NC.
 
Berkeley_Griz said:
Spanky2 said:
You are a positive gentleman!

I honestly don't mean to sound negative. I'm realistic about what the advantages are to either FCS or FBS. They're different, and I think anyone who strongly supports one way or the other likely values very different things. As I've stated, I'll enjoy either way and have no strong opinion on what UM should do (and needless to say, my opinion matters not the tiniest little bit to the outcome of the dilemma).

I actually agree with you on the MWC thing. If the PAC-12 disintegrates, the odds of moving are very slim. If they attempt to replace USC & UCLA with the slim pickings out west, they’d most likely poach the top 2 MWC schools which might make our chances somewhat better. If they attempt to go “bigger” and poach a couple B12 schools and the MWC is left intact, well, who knows.
 
AZGrizFan said:
Berkeley_Griz said:
I honestly don't mean to sound negative. I'm realistic about what the advantages are to either FCS or FBS. They're different, and I think anyone who strongly supports one way or the other likely values very different things. As I've stated, I'll enjoy either way and have no strong opinion on what UM should do (and needless to say, my opinion matters not the tiniest little bit to the outcome of the dilemma).

I actually agree with you on the MWC thing. If the PAC-12 disintegrates, the odds of moving are very slim. If they attempt to replace USC & UCLA with the slim pickings out west, they’d most likely poach the top 2 MWC schools which might make our chances somewhat better. If they attempt to go “bigger” and poach a couple B12 schools and the MWC is left intact, well, who knows.

I don't see the Pac-12 taking any from the MW, including Boise St. Boise just isn't a good enough academic school. Stanford and Boise St.? I don't think so.
 
mthoopsfan said:
AZGrizFan said:
I actually agree with you on the MWC thing. If the PAC-12 disintegrates, the odds of moving are very slim. If they attempt to replace USC & UCLA with the slim pickings out west, they’d most likely poach the top 2 MWC schools which might make our chances somewhat better. If they attempt to go “bigger” and poach a couple B12 schools and the MWC is left intact, well, who knows.

I don't see the Pac-12 taking any from the MW, including Boise St. Boise just isn't a good enough academic school. Stanford and Boise St.? I don't think so.

I almost posted something along these lines earlier in the week. With the PAC mentality, which still exists in many circles, some important people would have to get really cool about a lot of stuff before taking in a Boise/Fresno/SDSU/etc. They may not really have a choice, though. Idk.
 
mthoopsfan said:
AZGrizFan said:
I actually agree with you on the MWC thing. If the PAC-12 disintegrates, the odds of moving are very slim. If they attempt to replace USC & UCLA with the slim pickings out west, they’d most likely poach the top 2 MWC schools which might make our chances somewhat better. If they attempt to go “bigger” and poach a couple B12 schools and the MWC is left intact, well, who knows.

I don't see the Pac-12 taking any from the MW, including Boise St. Boise just isn't a good enough academic school. Stanford and Boise St.? I don't think so.

So do they just stay a severely weakened and irrelevant PAC-10? Because what schools are moving TO that hot mess?
 
AZGrizFan said:
mthoopsfan said:
I don't see the Pac-12 taking any from the MW, including Boise St. Boise just isn't a good enough academic school. Stanford and Boise St.? I don't think so.

So do they just stay a severely weakened and irrelevant PAC-10? Because what schools are moving TO that hot mess?

I don't know. But where do they go, except perhaps for a team or too? As I said earlier, I think the 12-team playoff, and an auto bid to conference winner, helps the Pac-12. I could see some Big 12 teams looking at the Pac-12/10/8. I could also see some Pac-12 teams going to the Big 12.

Big 12 is distributing $42.6 million per team this year, a big jump. That's pretty good. Better than Pac-12.

West Virginia already had big travel, but West Virginia to West Coast, and vice versa, is a long way.
 
CatGrad-UMGradStu said:
Nope. This can't be done in the west. No way!

https://www.si.com/college/2022/09/13/clay-helton-georgia-southern-football-rebuild

Excellent article. I agree——nope!
 
Spanky2 said:
CatGrad-UMGradStu said:
Nope. This can't be done in the west. No way!

https://www.si.com/college/2022/09/13/clay-helton-georgia-southern-football-rebuild

Excellent article. I agree——nope!

Same thing with Coastal Carolina, Georgia State, South Florida...

Can't start a program from scratch and build it into a national contender in the west. No way in hell. Especially the egos running the FCS and G5 schools west of the Mississippi. Go to Boulder and listen to the students and faculty keep telling everybody they should only associate with the pac schools. They're so much better than the low life scum in Fort Collins or heaven forbid, Laramie! And Logan, Utah???? Have you ever been there????

Wait! That kind of sounds like some of the posters here describing Fargo-Moohead and Brookings-Sioux Falls areas.
 
For now, I like the Griz being a "big fish in the small pond" however, if we win 1 or 2 national championships in the next several years, I can see us moving up to Group of 5 conference. Especially, if the Group of 5 conferences can set up their own playoff championship.
Our stadium has the same seating capacity as Utah State. If we were to move up, we could add 5,000-6,000 seats (to the west side and on each side of jumbotron) to increase our capacity to 30,000 - 32,000.
The top 5 teams of the Big Sky and MVFC could create a good Group of 5 (6) conference and become competitive with the MWC and Sun Brlt.
 
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