UM vs. Michigan NCAA Game Thread

[coyote]

I actually agree with you LA. I think we win this.

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[coyote]

Go GRIZ!!

 

[CleanHOUSE]

I'm going to just start a clean thread as easier to respond to Cleanhouse. Cleanhouse mentions that Akoh and Kriz are fundamentally sound bowling balls that are solid post defenders but will let teams shoot over them. UM's best perimeter players are the Center Wagner and Duncan Robinson who is more a guard then a stretch 4. But that is what Beilein likes to. The Michigan post game is run completely off the big & roll or the switch. They will not post Wagner unless a team elects to switch and a little guard is on him. Robinson is not a post threat but will occasionally drive on the overplay. This is Robinson's 3rd year in the Big10. Teams really made a point to close out on him. Plus Robinson struggled defensively at the 3. He just cannot hang on the perimeter against Div I talent. His defensive problems leaked into his offense. The key was having Robinson guard the 4 on defense where before it was Charles Mathews. Robinson is no great shakes. In fact mgoblog thought the only hope was for Livers to develop early. He will be very good next year. However, just putting his hands straight up as a six eight skinny guy seems to work. During this big run he is back to his historical average from 3. He is 25-54 from 3 during the 11 game win streak but 44-123 prior.

So a major point of emphasis in my opinion will be to set the 2 big's for 3pt attempts. This will be done via the pick roll if the big man sags instead of hedging hard. If the guard switches on to the center UM will then attempt to set up the post. They don't like to go iso unless the shot clock is running out. Simpson is not a jump shooter. But he gets to the rim with the best.

What made you guys so effective against MSU and struggle so much with Penn State...at team that we were within 3pts with 4min to go early in the year when we were maybe a 1/3 as good as we are now. We were not a very good team last year and the makeover to being a good team this year didn't happen right away, I think we would beat Penn St. now...or at least the Penn St. team we played early on

 

[CleanHOUSE]

I'm going to just start a clean thread as easier to respond to Cleanhouse. Cleanhouse mentions that Akoh and Kriz are fundamentally sound bowling balls that are solid post defenders but will let teams shoot over them. UM's best perimeter players are the Center Wagner and Duncan Robinson who is more a guard then a stretch 4. But that is what Beilein likes to. The Michigan post game is run completely off the big & roll or the switch. They will not post Wagner unless a team elects to switch and a little guard is on him. Robinson is not a post threat but will occasionally drive on the overplay. This is Robinson's 3rd year in the Big10. Teams really made a point to close out on him. Plus Robinson struggled defensively at the 3. He just cannot hang on the perimeter against Div I talent. His defensive problems leaked into his offense. The key was having Robinson guard the 4 on defense where before it was Charles Mathews. Robinson is no great shakes. In fact mgoblog thought the only hope was for Livers to develop early. He will be very good next year. However, just putting his hands straight up as a six eight skinny guy seems to work. During this big run he is back to his historical average from 3. He is 25-54 from 3 during the 11 game win streak but 44-123 prior.

So a major point of emphasis in my opinion will be to set the 2 big's for 3pt attempts. This will be done via the pick roll if the big man sags instead of hedging hard. If the guard switches on to the center UM will then attempt to set up the post. They don't like to go iso unless the shot clock is running out. Simpson is not a jump shooter. But he gets to the rim with the best.

What made you guys so effective against MSU and struggle so much with Penn State...at team that we were within 3pts with 4min to go early in the year when we were maybe a 1/3 as good as we are now. We were not a very good team last year and the makeover to being a good team this year didn't happen right away, I think we would beat Penn St. now...or at least the Penn St. team we played early on

Ooops i was looking at Penn St. beating Ohio State 3x

 

[zengriz]

What a difference in cultures. Michigan and their fans are already debating who they play in Round 2 while Montana fans hope to keep it close. What is it about Montana fans that they believe they are second best? UM has a solid team and knows how to play just like Michigan. I think Montana wins this.

...couldn't agree with you more...
...have a strange sense of confidence...
...to those looking past us..fcuk Michigan...

... ...

 

[putter]

Playing Pitt, Penn St and Washington will be a shot of confidence for this team. Too bad the UCLA game was cancelled. I just hope Michigan blew their wad in the tournament because they played some great basketball, for sure. Here is to another (que the App St announcer) The Montana Grizzlies just beat the Michigan Wolverines!!!!!!

 

[Swedish Griz]

Playing Pitt, Penn St and Washington will be a shot of confidence for this team. Too bad the UCLA game was cancelled. I just hope Michigan blew their wad in the tournament because they played some great basketball, for sure. Here is to another (que the App St announcer) The Montana Grizzlies just beat the Michigan Wolverines!!!!!!

Pitt went 8-24 this year. I hope the Griz look elsewhere for a confidence booster.

 

[putter]

Playing Pitt, Penn St and Washington will be a shot of confidence for this team. Too bad the UCLA game was cancelled. I just hope Michigan blew their wad in the tournament because they played some great basketball, for sure. Here is to another (que the App St announcer) The Montana Grizzlies just beat the Michigan Wolverines!!!!!!

Pitt went 8-24 this year. I hope the Griz look elsewhere for a confidence booster.

While I agree with you it was a win over a P5 team. Imagine if the Griz lost to a 9-23 team. You play who is put in front of you.

 

[Grizfan-24]

Michigan by record is the best team we have seen all year. By talent probably. Does it dwarf PSU, UW or Stanford? Likely not. The point is teams who have faced more talented teams in regards to depth and in hostile environment are less likely to be stunned by the moment, the team or the athletic ability. Teams can get run out of the building in the first five minutes if they aren't aware of that skill and athlete ability. That experience, even playing against Pitt, can provide the type of tool to allow them to hang around.

Michigan isn't the most ideal personnel matchup for the Griz. They have a mobile big and slew of tall and athletic perimeter players that are going to tax Oguine and Moorehead. So while the Griz play great defense, they are going to be asked to answer the bell against a team because of who coaches them than can find multiple ways to score. More for me, is how we adjust on the offensive end. Our desire lately to pound the ball inside, get good post action, is going to be challenged by a long and defensively talented Michigan squad. I just don't know how much success Akoh and Fab are going to have. They have been able to be the bully on the block the last few games. This might be a Rorie, Oguine, Falls type of game. Just my sense.

 

[Pepto Bismol]

Michigan fan site MGoBlog just posted their game preview. Might be interesting to read their take.

http://mgoblog.com/content/preview-montana-ncaa-tournament

 

[Michigan visitor guy]

Will be happy to give you a take on us and would appreciate it if you can give a take on yoir squad as i know little about it:

1) it is a typical John Beilein team in that we are disciplined, dont turn the ball over and don't foul much.

2) it is an atypical JB team as our defense is better than our O. Usually a JB team tries to outrun and out gun you. This one will beat you up a bit. With that said, we arent exactly a shot blocking team. What we do is keep teams from getting inside in the first place both by cuttimg off passimg lanes and the dribble drive. Not sure of the post conference tourney rankings but as of our last game we were number 5 or 6 in the country in defensive efficiency.

3) This is a very deep team who can get (lots) of points from many different guys on any given night...including guys coming off the bench (we have the Big Ten 6th Man of the year award winner in Dumcan Robinson). With that said, we dont have that one take over the game guy who on a nightly basis just beats you by himself. The two closest are Mo Wagner and and Abdur-Rahkman. Mo is a big man who is athletic and scores inside and out. The comparison the media makes is to Drik Nowitzski...partly because they are both German but also because his game is actually quite similar (a "poor man's version"). MAAR is a slasher (sg) who can get to the rim and hit timely outside shots. He led the nation in assist to turnover ratio - when he is hitting his shots it opens up the floor and thats when we go on rums because everyone starts scorimg since he will happily give up the ball to open guys.

4) Other players of note: Charles Mathews is our enigma. He is a lottery pick talent and body. However, sometimes he plays like he has never picked up a basketball in his e
life. Our pg is a true frosh named Zavier Simpson. Not a great shooter but a fantastic defender, a pretty good passer and has a knack for making plays. Livers (a true frosh) is the 5th starter and a future star but not yet. Off the bench is Ribinson who is our best shooter and can hjt from anywhere on the court. Poole is a spark plug who can take over a game (be our best player) when he is one but is a true freshman who oftern plays like one. When Teske comes in it changes the way we play (he tends to come in for Wagner who we run our O though...when Teske is in we play more on the perimeter). He is a big...well actually our biggest man who isnt quite a threat to score (besides cleaning up) but gives us a defensive presence in the middle. Simmons was a two year starter in the MAC who transfered in, expecting to start, and has accepted his role of giving us valuable minutes at the point with little letdown.

5) Weaknesses: we are a pretty bad FT team. Sometimes makes it hard to close out games amd allows teams back into games. We are long and athletic but not exactly a big team...size cam challenge us. While having a lot of guys who can put up points is a good thing...so is having that one guy who consistently takes over games. We don't have that. You will hear the media talk about how we are 3pt shooting team. That is based on legacy. This team can hit 3s but not like past teams.

Looking forward to hearimg about your team

This give me some hope to be honest! Our biggest weakness is shooting, and height. Teams try and beat us by packing the paint and just daring us to take as many 3's as we want. We were kicking the crap out of Stanford then went to final 10 min with on a few free throws lol. Also we lack height, for being a team built on D we can get burned by the 3 because while you won't get by us, some teams can just shoot over us. We also lack height down low, both our tallest guys are 6'8", but I say height because we don't lack size, our two post players make of for thier lack of height by being bowling ball thick, you can shoot over them but if your post guy is skinny you are not going to move them.
Also you said your team is very good in transition D(Or could have been a different post by Mich Fan kinda responding to a couple post from Mich peeps here), but the griz only try and run off turnovers otherwise they really have no designs on running up and down, since we can't shoot 3's we love to get the ball down low then look for a kick out and slash to rim or 15ft J if initial look isn't there.
You said your team like to force guys inside, but our PG Rorie's best shot is the mid range jumper and our SG Oguine is the best slash in the bigsky and our PF Pridgett is best on offense when he is playing a face up style of game and our two big guys only shoot when under the basket so you won't need to convinces not to run in transition and take 3pt shots.
We might actually match up ok with you guys it seems, but usually it teams that can shoot that can pull off upsets because that can neutralize the size difference, but Moorhead is probably our only guy that could shoot around the arc in practice and hit 15 3's in a row lol.

Our Rotation
PG-Rorie = Super steady bit undersized loves pull J from inside the arc, never gets in foul trouble, rattles every FT but somehow shoot 93%, solid driver, great stamina will play 40min without gettting tired. Is good for about 15pts against anyone, but also not a great shooter so while he's steady he not going to explode for 38pts either. Yeah he's steady not great 3pt shooter but expect about 1of3 to go in.

SG-Oguine = Kinda like our Christian McCaffery just does it all. Really smooth to the hoop easily the best driver of anyone he has been on the court with this year. Great jumper so he loves to hunt rebounds. Not a great shooter, but he can get on a streak, unlike Rorie when he's shooting from 3pt you expect him to go 1-5 or 4-5. While not a great 3pt guy he has improved a lot and likes taking them so he's either going all the way to rim or taking a 3pt....or getting about 10pts of put backs each game lol! BigSky D player of the year although frequently he wont guard really quick type scorers, not that he can't but I think we can't afford to have him in foul trouble so he usually tries to lock down the less athletic scoring option or the guy who plays off the ball.

PF-Moorhead and Pridgett = Moorhead is glue guy who is prone to being up and down can shoot the 3 some nights but can also turn it over and dribble into trouble a lot...he's mainly good on D where his 6'7" can be tough on guards that want to shoot the 3 ball. Pridg is a Pac12 talent who loves to play a face up game and rebound, really strong and under control around the rim

C- Akoh and Kriz = both 6'8" bowling balls that are fundamentally sound, can miss some easy post shots at times cause not terribly skilled and lack touch, but both much improved and by the end of the year really steady. Both pretty ground bound so wont block your shot, instead use weight to keep arms up and don't get moved off spot...we've had some 7fters just shoot over them if they are skilled, but if they are skinny they are going to have a tough time getting close enough to the hoop. These guys love to pass between each other. Both guys you are happy to see go to line, not great but not sad they didn't just get the bucket instead.

Bench guys.
Nicholas = 6'9" Fr C who is most athletic and gifted low post guy we got, just this team demands you play unfaltering D and he picks up a lot of Fr fouls so he tends to see limited minutes if our upperclassmen aren't in foul trouble...also like literally 12/36 from FT line!

Timmy Falls = pretty weak and can be over powered out there at times, but he plays with a lot of energy and confidence (tries to make every pass a highlight to often) and he's got good hops, more often a positive impact or neutral when he comes in.

Team
Love to play slow half court game and work ball low or slash to rim or slash for pull up 15footers. All 8 guys in our rotation can be 15pt guys, nobody that's going to go off for 40 but with this team you are never wishing that the starters come back in because they all have upside to be the guy that day scoring wise.
On D love to extend pressure and double off ball screens and force turnovers, you can shoot over guys but won't get around them and wont get alot of offensive boards

First off, thanks for the detailed breakdown on your team...very informative. Next, just want to clarify a few things:

1) not sure where i gave the impression we let teams get inside because it is the exact opposite. One of the things this team does best is cut off guys driving and passing lanes in the paint. I was more referring to teams that have multiple legit post scorers. If you can get the ball down low we arent that good at stopping bigger guys.

2) But this doesnt seem like what teams tried to do to you as we dont concede the thtee either and have a lot of lenght ro combat it. It's almost like our coaches have followed current trends in basketball and challenging teams to beat us with a mid-range game...something you seem to indicate you have some guys who can consistently hit those shots...kind of a dying art in BB and a plus for you.

3) a lot of people (including us michigan guys) keep refering to our "skinny" guy in the middle. Wagner is not your traditional big post player but make no mistake...he will be playing in the NBA and is big enough for that. He is more of a high post player and a lot of our O runs through him. He is big enough, but more importantly quick and long enough to take one dribble (from the high post) and be at the rim. This is where size and height matter...if you have a second guy to slide over and challenge him at the rim it can give him trouble.

4) Building off 3...surprisingly Michigan tends to outscore a lot of teams in the paint that on paper we shouldn't. The game we play is that if you try to shut down Wagner's path to the basket we pop him to the outside where he is more than capable of nailing the three...if you have a shorter guy on him he shoots over them but the real goal is to get your bigs to chase him while we slide one of our bigger wings (big for the position) inside for hopefully an easy 2 over a smaller guy. If you guys are able to recognize the movements and make proper switches it could be a key for you.

5) interesting comment you made about us not being able to get by you. We'll see i guess but it is something we do very well and have been able to do against teams with multiple MacDonald's All Americans and future NBA players. Its less about iso play and more about quick ball movement and attacking the lane when defendera are moving.

 

[MissoulaMarinerFan]

...
5) interesting comment you made about us not being able to get by you. We'll see i guess but it is something we do very well and have been able to do against teams with multiple MacDonald's All Americans and future NBA players. Its less about iso play and more about quick ball movement and attacking the lane when defendera are moving.

I believe he meant more the goal is to not let folks drive by - it does happen - not saying you guys won't, but that is one of the main goals of the D. Everybody moves their feet really well - but I believe it'll be a huge test for the Griz because I don't believe we've played a team with the caliber of athletic player at each position. Truthfully, I think we'll either: 1). Keep it close early and you'll pull away late or 2). You may jump ahead early and we'll fight back and end up losing by around 10 or so. Should be a fun game to watch!

 

[hfhmilkman]

A good example of what MVG was describing is the conference championship game against Purdue. Purdue had a burly 7 1 center in Haas who pretty much had his way with Wagner. Yet Haas was run off the court because he was destroyed by the pick & roll. Wagner got a ton of easy buckets as the switch ended up with Wagner being defended by a guard. This is the bread & butter of UM. If you go under Wagner or Robinson pops for 3. If you go over the guard takes it to the rim with one big man behind. If you switch, Wagner goes low. This does not work so well against tall athletic teams that can choose to switch on every pick & roll. Regardless of who wins or is favored this is what UM will try to do. Defensively they are complete moneyball. They will attempt to close out 3 attempts, try to deny rim looks, and be content to let post players shoot over them in one-on-one.

My personal take is UM does very well on defense when up against guard oriented ISO offenses. The strength of the defense is the perimeter play of the two starting guards. Plus there is a lot of athletic length that can be thrown out from the wings. I think it is very likely UM will have some scoring droughts, especially since Montana appears to be fundamentally sound on defense. Defense keeps you in every game. However, if low scoring the poor FT shooting may come into play.

 

[garizzalies]

Glad there’s no confusion on who the real “UM” is.

 

[cmtgrizzly]

I am really not into statistics nor comparisons to other teams that may seem similar to an upcoming opponent.
Nor do I think comparing score differentials between shared opponents is reliable information from which to draw conclusions. Unfortunately it is all we have at this point. Statistically Michigan is a little bit better in 3 point percentage but they are by no means an elite 3 point shooting team based on their percentage. We are a bit better freethrow shooting team. Our field goal percentages are very similar with us being minimally ahead.

What really matters is on Thursday, March 15th, who can alter those percentages in their favor. I dont think there is any arguing that Michigan generally fields a far superior team athletically and have a great coach. I would say this year there is less of a gap in player ability than in the past and I do think we are rising as a program. Hopefully this is a long-term trajectory and we continue to succesfully recruit basketball players that can compete at least at a high mid-major level. I also think our coach is on the rise and the gap in coaching is not as great as the vast majority of people would assume it is and I believe with experience Travis will continue to close that gap.

I hope our players play their best at this biggest moment in the season and walk away proud regardless of outcome. If they upset Michigan it will be a monumental achievement but I dont think it is out of reach. If they lose, I hope they compete admirably and tuck the experience away for next year.

 

[cclarkblues]

My fear is that playing in an arena that actually have a crowd will scare them after the empty gym at the conference tourney.

 

[AZDoc]

My fear is that playing in an arena that actually have a crowd will scare them after the empty gym at the conference tourney.

:lol: HALF empty?

 

[IntuitiveGriz]

The BSC is 3-33 in the NCAA tourney.

The last BSC NCAA tourney victory was 2006, and it was Montana over Nevada.

Having said that, this UM team (even though this is a brutal draw #3), is talented and if they play out of their mind they have a chance to shock the world.

GO GRIZ!!!

 

[IntuitiveGriz]

Proud of these guys: Montana Basketball Team

ROSTER/BIOS
http://gogriz.com/roster.aspx?path=mbball

 

[IntuitiveGriz]

How come the U of Washington transfer, Donaven Dorsey, is missing from the picture? Prob no real reason... He has to sit out this season due to transfer rules, right?

And what's with the 6'10" and 7'0" Freshman, are they red-shirting this year? I believe yes, but what say you? Are they any good?

We only lose 1 SR off this team for next season, granted a good one. But we may just be better in 2019.