Tackling a Culture of Sexism

[Spanky]

The more posts I read from GG, I become confused about what she believes to be true in this entire smoke screen referenced as a Culture of Sexism. Does GG lean more to the beliefs of Lisa Davey and others of that extreme group?

 

[GGNez]

To stop talking to female coworkers or connecting with them on a personal level of any sort would be the equivalent of this:

A flag is thrown and a player is penalized for excessive celebration. He decides that, from that point forward, he will no longer celebrate when his team wins. He won't express happiness if he makes a game-winning touchdown reception. He will refrain from expressing joy when his team gets a first down.

Or, a wide receiver jumps the gun and is charged with a false start. From then on, he chooses to never step foot past the line of scrimmage - just too risky.

This is where we are on this sexism discussion. On one extreme end, we have a few refs out there throwing flags willy-nilly because they just KNOW that those big-ass D-Linemen will eventually f*** up anyway. SO, they just need to be constantly penalized and not given a chance to play the game.

On the other side, we have a couple of jack-asses running all over the field, ramming everyone with their helmets, flipping off the coaches, mooning the crowd and punching opponents in the nuts ('member that one time that happened to Dave DeCoite?)

Pretty hard to stop the flag-happy pessimists when the game is disrupted by the nut puncher.
Pretty hard to stop the flag-thrower when you have loud mouth a-holes with severe psychological damage running around, trying their best to sabotage any cooperative efforts.

I agree with your last three paragraphs I quoted here, or I at least understand the point you're making. But I think the analogies in the first three paragraphs miss the mark a bit.

When it comes to this topic of "toxic masculinity," the analogy is more like this: A certain player violates the rules with excessive celebration, but rather than he alone receiving the penalty, each player on his team is also individually flagged because they are associated with him, but for no other (good) reason. Because this one schmuck lacked self-control and sound judgment, the rest of his teammates also receive personal fouls, and from now on will be watched with suspicion and held to an arbitrarily determined, nebulous standard. So from that point forward, none of his teammates celebrate when they win. None of them are happy about scoring a touchdown, getting a first down, or even suiting up and running out of the tunnel. They are unsure of whose standards they should be following and are afraid to offend one of the refs and bring a penalty on themselves and their teammates.

Let's move the discussion off the field, now: As a result of all the allegations against men, many men become weak, irresponsible, and passive. They learn to keep their thoughts to themselves, mind their own business, and say nothing to anyone. They don't take initiative, they don't look out for others, and they do as little as possible to get by. They don't know who to trust or confide in, and they become a shell of the person they could be if they were allowed to be themselves. There is danger in self-expression when you have been told you are the problem, and that you are "toxic."

As hard as it may be to silence the "nut puncher" or the "flag thrower," a rational, reasonable, human being can see they do not represent the group and would not label them as such. But that's the problem. Those who are throwing out the "culture of sexism" and "toxic masculinity" labels are not rational, reasonable human beings. They are intellectually lazy. They demand that others tolerate their worldview but refuse to tolerate (and even vilify) others whose worldview doesn't agree with theirs. This is morally inconsistent, and they should be called out for it.

The "toxic masculinity" label is an unwarranted generalization: just because something may be true of one man in one instance, it is not true of all men in all instances. This is flagrant sexism.

I agree wholeheartedly to your entire post. My references to the flag-happy refs and blatant rule-breaking players was intended to support your point that MANY good men/players are unfairly labeled by the fouls committed by very few.

I tried to make that very point to some of the anti-football people in the past and made very little headway, despite numerous examples of really good deeds/accomplishments and behavior of many associated with the UM Football program.

One thing, though: "toxic masculinity" does NOT mean that masculinity is toxic anymore than "poisoned water" means that water is bad. It means that poisoned water is harmful. It has nothing to do with water itself - we need water. It's refreshing. It's great for swimming, bathing, drinking, etc. But, the Berekely Pit is an issue that needs to be resolved one day. It's potentially harmful to all living things that exist around it. Water = good. Poisoned water = toxic; but discussing poisoned water isn't in any way intended to imply anything negative about water.

Interestingly, by the true intended psychological definition, toxic masculinity is the reason that there IS such a double standard for men; why they keep their mouths shut when they are sexually harassed by women. They are taught to buck up. Man up. Far fewer men report child sexual abuse due to toxic masculinity. Hopefully we can all keep learning.

 

[GGNez]

The more posts I read from GG, I become confused about what she believes to be true in this entire smoke screen referenced as a Culture of Sexism. Does GG lean more to the beliefs of Lisa Davey and others of that extreme group?

Reason has become confusing to both sides, Spanky.

 

[reinell30]

I got an idea. Opening home game, every EGrizzer will meet at my tailgate and we will all meet each other and have a group hug. Then we will get drunk and enjoy the game. Talking about this in person, before we get drunk can clear the air. You folks who live in Missoula can invite the naysayers to join us so we can clear the sexism air for them.

 

[GGNez]

I got an idea. Opening home game, every EGrizzer will meet at my tailgate and we will all meet each other and have a group hug. Then we will get drunk and enjoy the game. Talking about this in person, before we get drunk can clear the air. You folks who live in Missoula can invite the naysayers to join us so we can clear the sexism air for them.

I'm there! No reason to clear the air, IMO. I have no problem with people having a different opinion and perspective than mine. Malicious people suck, but that's not what debating this matter is about. Beer, group hug, football. I'm in.

 

[GGNez]

The more posts I read from GG, I become confused about what she believes to be true in this entire smoke screen referenced as a Culture of Sexism. Does GG lean more to the beliefs of Lisa Davey and others of that extreme group?

Funny you should phrase it this way, Spanks.
All of this stuff is a thousand shades of grey in a current climate of black or white.
Do I have to either agree with everything that Lisa Davey believes, OR, think that she and her supporters are bad people and wrong about everything? OR, do I have to deny the existence of sexism if I want to be a Hauck/Griz supporter? Do I have to hate men if I believe that we have yet to reach a place of equality and mutual respect between the genders? I don’t fit in either box.
I think that the anti-Hauck petition contained unfair, untrue information and personally spoke out against it. But I also support Lisa’s right to express her opinion. In my opinion, she should have done more research before putting out the statements that she did. My thoughts are that she has some very important concerns that were ENTIRELY misplaced and undeservedly put on Coach Hauck.
I think that those who compare a poorly researched petition to the response from the person who caused problems for the AD over it and who put Lisa’s safety in jeopardy by inciting his mob and telling them exactly where to find her are way off. The two things are VERY different.
Bobby had things said about him that he didn’t deserve. I highly doubt that he even noticed, except that he had to call out the idiot who used it as a reason to be malicious in the name of Grizzly Football. Bobby has tens of thousands of supporters. He has a great-paying job, a prominent family, a brother with a shiny new Superbowl ring and will have 25,000 or so people surrounding him in support on Saturdays for many years to come. Lisa is a woman with a minority opinion. She should not have her safety threatened.
You may or may not have noticed, but Lisa spoke out against Hauck, then I spoke out FOR Hauck. The a-hole that bullied Lisa and shared her home address online, ranted and raved like a lunatic about BOTH of us and still does. To him, we are “stupid cunts” who know nothing. To him, we need to sit down and shut up. But, our views on the topic he CLAIMED to be concerned about (the anti-Hauck petition) are entirely opposite. But we’re both women. So….that’s sexism, my friend. I’ve never met Lisa but have no disrespect for her and her right to her opinion. Bobby Hauck shares that opinion.
I relate very well to men – my closest friends and confidants are men, mostly older men. It bothers me on a deep level that some people judge men based on the poor behavior of a few. It bothers me on a deep level that some people attack men for words rather than the intent behind their words. It bothers me that I am looking for a sexual assault advocacy job but choosing locations other than Missoula because I don’t feel that I can do that work here as an avid Griz fan.
As far as which direction I “lean,” I like to think I stand straight up in the middle, willing to listen and consider the feelings and perspectives of others.

 

[PlayerRep]

I resent your phrase referring to "older men" and demand a retraction or re-phrasing. Unless your friends are even older than I am.

 

[GGNez]

I resent your phrase referring to "older men" and demand a retraction or re-phrasing. Unless your friends are even older than I am.

Yes...PR....they are all older than 32.

 

[Fat Bruno]

The more posts I read from GG, I become confused about what she believes to be true in this entire smoke screen referenced as a Culture of Sexism. Does GG lean more to the beliefs of Lisa Davey and others of that extreme group?

We do know where you’re at though, don’t we … standing strong with Man1, aka AddledGriz1, and his moderates.

Where is Dear Leader, btw … applying for asylum in Saudi Arabia … or just in an asylum?

I understand he started calling himself Sheik Mike and drew unwanted attention from county mental health officials.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Extreme remarks cause extreme reactions and assumptions. A couple of posters have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think football supporters are malicious woman-haters. We've mostly learned to scroll past their posts; maybe even feel sorry for them that they have never learned to relate to the opposite sex in a healthy manner. It IS sad. But, deleting this discussion literally or figuratively isn't going to do anything other than ensure that we maintain the status-quo. Page 26....pretty solid evidence that the status-quo isn't working for most people.

Well, I get that, but on the other hand:

:rule:

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[GGNez]

Extreme remarks cause extreme reactions and assumptions. A couple of posters have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think football supporters are malicious woman-haters. We've mostly learned to scroll past their posts; maybe even feel sorry for them that they have never learned to relate to the opposite sex in a healthy manner. It IS sad. But, deleting this discussion literally or figuratively isn't going to do anything other than ensure that we maintain the status-quo. Page 26....pretty solid evidence that the status-quo isn't working for most people.

Well, I get that, but on the other hand:

:rule:

"Posting Rules

Please don't post:

Severe harassment, threats and abuse
Personal information of another user without prior consent of that user
Material that is overly vulgar, obscene or indecent. This includes posting links to such content as well
Posts that are hateful or racially offensive
Unrelated Advertising or any form of commercial solicitation without prior consent from forum administrator

Please use the proper forum for the topic you are posting
Please don't hijack threads by turning subject away from its original purpose
Please don't register multiple usernames without prior consent from forum administrator
Posts or actions that violate the above terms may be deleted/moved upon discovery. While we may attempt to notify you if we move or delete a post, we are under no obligation to do so. Depending on the nature of the violation, the administrator may suspend or permanently ban your account."

I hear ya....problem lies with multiple personality disorder. ALL of the personas need to be #band. Again, so that the grownups can have a discussion.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Extreme remarks cause extreme reactions and assumptions. A couple of posters have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think football supporters are malicious woman-haters. We've mostly learned to scroll past their posts; maybe even feel sorry for them that they have never learned to relate to the opposite sex in a healthy manner. It IS sad. But, deleting this discussion literally or figuratively isn't going to do anything other than ensure that we maintain the status-quo. Page 26....pretty solid evidence that the status-quo isn't working for most people.

And conversely, a couple of posters here on the other side have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think that supporters of equal rights for all really are just people who want to force us all to live THEIR version of what they believe our lives should look like; they've reinforced the image of that group as loons, steadfast in their misguided beliefs, facts be damned...that their agenda is more important than actually getting the facts right. They've reinforced the image of that group as individuals incapable of having a civil conversation about said agenda without devolving into name calling, slander, mocking and vicious attacks. They've reinforced the image of that group as one who firmly believes that THEIR version of the truth is the ONLY version of the truth that matters and anyone who deigns to disagree with any of the efforts of their group should be shouted down, publicly humiliated and not let to speak their mind.

I feel sorry for them because it's apparent they haven't learned to relate to their OWN sex in a healthy manner. And I've learned to also scroll past THEIR posts.

 

[GGNez]

Extreme remarks cause extreme reactions and assumptions. A couple of posters have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think football supporters are malicious woman-haters. We've mostly learned to scroll past their posts; maybe even feel sorry for them that they have never learned to relate to the opposite sex in a healthy manner. It IS sad. But, deleting this discussion literally or figuratively isn't going to do anything other than ensure that we maintain the status-quo. Page 26....pretty solid evidence that the status-quo isn't working for most people.

And conversely, a couple of posters here on the other side have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think that supporters of equal rights for all really are just people who want to force us all to live THEIR version of what they believe our lives should look like; they've reinforced the image of that group as loons, steadfast in their misguided beliefs, facts be damned...that their agenda is more important than actually getting the facts right. They've reinforced the image of that group as individuals incapable of having a civil conversation about said agenda without devolving into name calling, slander, mocking and vicious attacks. They've reinforced the image of that group as one who firmly believes that THEIR version of the truth is the ONLY version of the truth that matters and anyone who deigns to disagree with any of the efforts of their group should be shouted down, publicly humiliated and not let to speak their mind.

I feel sorry for them because it's apparent they haven't learned to relate to their OWN sex in a healthy manner. And I've learned to also scroll past THEIR posts.

Agreed.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Extreme remarks cause extreme reactions and assumptions. A couple of posters have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think football supporters are malicious woman-haters. We've mostly learned to scroll past their posts; maybe even feel sorry for them that they have never learned to relate to the opposite sex in a healthy manner. It IS sad. But, deleting this discussion literally or figuratively isn't going to do anything other than ensure that we maintain the status-quo. Page 26....pretty solid evidence that the status-quo isn't working for most people.

And conversely, a couple of posters here on the other side have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think that supporters of equal rights for all really are just people who want to force us all to live THEIR version of what they believe our lives should look like; they've reinforced the image of that group as loons, steadfast in their misguided beliefs, facts be damned...that their agenda is more important than actually getting the facts right. They've reinforced the image of that group as individuals incapable of having a civil conversation about said agenda without devolving into name calling, slander, mocking and vicious attacks. They've reinforced the image of that group as one who firmly believes that THEIR version of the truth is the ONLY version of the truth that matters and anyone who deigns to disagree with any of the efforts of their group should be shouted down, publicly humiliated and not let to speak their mind.

I feel sorry for them because it's apparent they haven't learned to relate to their OWN sex in a healthy manner. And I've learned to also scroll past THEIR posts.

Agreed.

Good. Now, about that Bud Light issue. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[GGNez]

Extreme remarks cause extreme reactions and assumptions. A couple of posters have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think football supporters are malicious woman-haters. We've mostly learned to scroll past their posts; maybe even feel sorry for them that they have never learned to relate to the opposite sex in a healthy manner. It IS sad. But, deleting this discussion literally or figuratively isn't going to do anything other than ensure that we maintain the status-quo. Page 26....pretty solid evidence that the status-quo isn't working for most people.

And conversely, a couple of posters here on the other side have spoon-fed a goldmine to those who think that supporters of equal rights for all really are just people who want to force us all to live THEIR version of what they believe our lives should look like; they've reinforced the image of that group as loons, steadfast in their misguided beliefs, facts be damned...that their agenda is more important than actually getting the facts right. They've reinforced the image of that group as individuals incapable of having a civil conversation about said agenda without devolving into name calling, slander, mocking and vicious attacks. They've reinforced the image of that group as one who firmly believes that THEIR version of the truth is the ONLY version of the truth that matters and anyone who deigns to disagree with any of the efforts of their group should be shouted down, publicly humiliated and not let to speak their mind.

I feel sorry for them because it's apparent they haven't learned to relate to their OWN sex in a healthy manner. And I've learned to also scroll past THEIR posts.

Agreed.

Good. Now, about that Bud Light issue. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

I know, man. You gotta switch to Cold Smoke. It's really the only solution I see working.

 

[RobGriz]

I got an idea. Opening home game, every EGrizzer will meet at my tailgate and we will all meet each other and have a group hug. Then we will get drunk and enjoy the game. Talking about this in person, before we get drunk can clear the air. You folks who live in Missoula can invite the naysayers to join us so we can clear the sexism air for them.

I’m in.

 

[GGNez]

I got an idea. Opening home game, every EGrizzer will meet at my tailgate and we will all meet each other and have a group hug. Then we will get drunk and enjoy the game. Talking about this in person, before we get drunk can clear the air. You folks who live in Missoula can invite the naysayers to join us so we can clear the sexism air for them.

I’m in.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[EverettGriz]

No way this gets to 117 pages.

 

[tourist]

:lol: Eleven more days, then the theatrical event, then the reaction to the theatrical event. 117 might be attainable. :roll: Love a challenge.

 

[GGNez]

No way this gets to 117 pages.

:lol: :lol: :lol: