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Tackling a Culture of Sexism
- Thread starter NorthEndZoneDan
- Start date
sdk.catfish
Well-known member
If you don't trust BH (and of course BW as well) in this type of setting it is difficult to see why you would trust him with the fate of Griz football. Relax, it will be just fine and he will impress.
PR, a culture of sexism or rape culture refers to a multitude of accepted attitudes and behaviors that enable and sometimes incite sexual assault and misogyny. For example, here's a hypothetical: imagine a chat forum made up mostly of men and a few women. A couple of the men repeatedly respond to anything the female says with remarks like, "go make me a sandwich" or "you probably perform sex acts for food". Most of the other men wouldn't say those things, but they also don't stand up for the woman. A few respond with a laughing or applause emoji. Seems harmless, but it is creating and supporting a group message that says that the female is inferior to the others. Or, an overweight female has an opinion you disagree with. When the general consensus of people accept that it's ok or "normal" to call her fat or unattractive but would not respond that way to an unattractive overweight male, that is a "culture" that accepts the notion that women are to be judged on their physical appearance rather than their mind. These are only two examples of seemingly minor factors that all play into undermining and disrespecting an entire gender. Similarly, and at another level, many college parties have had a tradition of inviting freshman females, making a special "punch" for them with extra alcohol or even worse, then getting them intentionally wasted so they can have sex with them. The entire "culture" at the party accepts this as ok and "normal", that perpetuates rape against women. Or, at least, manipulation and taking advantage of women if you prefer not to use the appropriate word. Beau Donaldson's rape victim was taunted, harassed, threatened on campus, online, downtown and had to listen to her high school teacher talk about Beau's exemplary character at his sentencing. He did it. He raped her. So, a "norm" within a social group that accepts punishing victims is part of this entire "culture".
These are just a few examples - as a female, I can tell you we have ALL experienced several others on many levels our entire lives. It's up to you - the real men - at this point. Most of you are respectful, and wonderful people. But, you gotta get to the next level and start calling out other men as if their target is your mom or sister. Because they deal with it all the time too.
Am I being an "angry man-hating feminist?" Fuck no. I love men. Most of my friends are men. I am not easily offended. But, this is the answer. "Rape Culture" is not a buzz word.
If you really want to learn, this is a decent article:
http://www.southernct.edu/sexual-misconduct/facts.html
These are just a few examples - as a female, I can tell you we have ALL experienced several others on many levels our entire lives. It's up to you - the real men - at this point. Most of you are respectful, and wonderful people. But, you gotta get to the next level and start calling out other men as if their target is your mom or sister. Because they deal with it all the time too.
Am I being an "angry man-hating feminist?" Fuck no. I love men. Most of my friends are men. I am not easily offended. But, this is the answer. "Rape Culture" is not a buzz word.
If you really want to learn, this is a decent article:
http://www.southernct.edu/sexual-misconduct/facts.html
GGNez said:
What is unfortunate is one could substitute or switch "men" and "women" in many examples. Let's flip the tables....
Chat forum made up of mostly women who may degrade, shame, belittle or make sexually suggestive derogatory remarks about one of the few male posters...check.
Respond with laughing emoji (A pat on the back "you go girl" if you will) Little if any women on forum defending man. Possibly even ganging up on him.....check
Grossly overweight man has an opinion many women will disagree with. Or let's say just for shits and giggles a guy with an orange face and hair that looks like a muppet character when the wind blows. Women are going to make fun of his appearance and say vicious things about his physical attributes? He has a different opinion so fair game right?....check
As a male I can tell you I have been sexually harassed by females more times than I can count in my lifetime. Physically and verbally, most often by strangers, on many occasions by "superiors" or co-workers, quite often in groups.
Are repeated unwanted advances considered sexual harassment? Grabbing my ass in public? Trying to undo my belt? Loudly proclaiming very inappropriate things about my body and than laughing with your (and I don't mean YOUR GG, rather whomever the instigator is) friends?....check...check....check.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a gentleman to ladies. I will hold the door open and say yes 'mam and thank you please and smile. I raised two spectacular, educated and beautiful daughters on my own (Yes, their mother bailed over 20 years ago, haven't seen her since) I could go on about the "deadbeat dad" labeling, quite often by our lawmakers but that's a whole different story.
What I'm getting at is it just isn't a women issue. It's a people issue. I'm not the one to say how any individual should or shouldn't be affected by being sexually harassed, assaulted, shamed etc but I will say I think I'm pretty freaking normal, mentally sound and successful for being assaulted so many times. I brushed it off, shrugged it off, made excuses for the culprits (ladies in the bachelorette party must have been into the punch at the dorm party) and didn't let it bother me the next day or years later. Should everyone react the same as me? Most certainly not, everyone handles traumatic events differently.
What I AM saying is if it bothers you personally, seek help, take action, file charges or go public if necessary but (in my opinion) don't make a big deal of it if it doesn't bother you just because someone else says you have been violated and this is how you SHOULD feel.
I sometimes get the impression that being part of the movement is an exciting rush to many who may very well have been the aggressors themselves in the past but received a pass because they are female.
signedbewildered said:
Thank you for responding to this, Signed. Dialogue is EXACTLY what we need in this and so many other issues. People don't want to discuss anything - just clutch their pitchforks and band together with people who already share their opinion. You make good points and I don't believe that either gender should be stereotyped, nor do I think a person should unbuckle the belt of another person, grab their ass without consent, etc. A lot of this could be included under the umbrella of bullying as a whole - mocking, making fun of someone's braces, glasses, body, etc....
A couple of points: while in general, these basic social rules are equal for both genders, in recent history, women WERE treated as less than men. It was ok to beat your wife - nobody's business to interfere. A wife's job was to look pretty and serve her husband. She was put here to serve him. Just as there are still 90-year-olds who never learned to stop using the N-word, there are pervasive attitudes that remain from when we couldn't vote, drive, ask for divorce or be a whole person. Whether or not we wanted sex didn't matter. Whether or not we wanted to be a mother didn't matter. So, some of the scraps of that remain in some people. Not your fault, nothing you need to do about it...just true.
Also, men are physically stronger than women; men are physically able to rape women. It's unfortunate that all men don't refrain from abusing or raping women but many do - it exists everywhere, every day.
Last thing, it's not so easy to "just report" sex crimes without fear of being blamed, doubted, harassed, etc. Keep quiet and deal with it, or risk reporting it and not having any idea what will happen beyond everyone knowing that you claim to have been raped. Not a great choice.
All in all....the extremes on both sides are equally guilty of closing their eyes and ears and refusing to try to understand what the other side is so angry about.
So, thanks again for your comments. I appreciate the dialogue. It feels like respect.
I agree with your points, or facts I guess as that is certainly what they are and in no way am I attempting to downplay how women were treated throughout history and are still today.
My rant was simply a reminder that this is far from a one sided issue even though many think of it as such.
Things that make me curious in the local media especially....It seems anything to do with harassment or the supposed "rape" culture at UM, especially the football program tends to draw dozens of on line comments instantly and sometimes hundreds in the days that follow by people proclaiming to stand up for the victims (Remember the frenzy surrounding JJ's case?) yet take for example, the recent articles that have been posted (by The Missoulian) about Terrrance Edwards who is on trial for human trafficking of very young ladies. He is accused of forcing them into prostitution, beating them, holding them captive and even forcing them to swallow his own saliva to prove their loyalty to him and the comments that follow the postings? Crickets! Nothing.
Where are all of the ambassadors? Where are the voices for these young ladies? Why aren't the same people that jumped all over Jordan Johnson by taking the time to at least voice their opinions through on line comments speaking up in support of these women in the same exact on-line venue? Could it be they are getting ready to confront Hauck at the U and be bored to death over Brints graphs and charts? (Sorry Brint, it's a joke)
I guess some causes are just cool to stand up for and some aren't. I don't get it. I really don't.
My rant was simply a reminder that this is far from a one sided issue even though many think of it as such.
Things that make me curious in the local media especially....It seems anything to do with harassment or the supposed "rape" culture at UM, especially the football program tends to draw dozens of on line comments instantly and sometimes hundreds in the days that follow by people proclaiming to stand up for the victims (Remember the frenzy surrounding JJ's case?) yet take for example, the recent articles that have been posted (by The Missoulian) about Terrrance Edwards who is on trial for human trafficking of very young ladies. He is accused of forcing them into prostitution, beating them, holding them captive and even forcing them to swallow his own saliva to prove their loyalty to him and the comments that follow the postings? Crickets! Nothing.
Where are all of the ambassadors? Where are the voices for these young ladies? Why aren't the same people that jumped all over Jordan Johnson by taking the time to at least voice their opinions through on line comments speaking up in support of these women in the same exact on-line venue? Could it be they are getting ready to confront Hauck at the U and be bored to death over Brints graphs and charts? (Sorry Brint, it's a joke)
I guess some causes are just cool to stand up for and some aren't. I don't get it. I really don't.
I want to clarify something.
I've never felt that I need any males on this forum to stick up for me specifically, even back before the #banding. I don't respond emotionally to the banter here and can dish it as well as taking it. So, please don't think I was calling anyone out on here.
In fact, my first post when I returned was that there is an entirely different feeling here than a few years ago. I enjoy the current personalities, humor and rivalries a lot. The tone has changed a lot for the better.
Also, when I refer to the need for dialogue and listening to different viewpoints, I have found eGriz posters to be FAR more receptive to that than some on the other side.
A lot of you saw the posts AG made about me and my Missoulian column supporting Hauck. Well, you may not know that I also got an ugly, personal, threatening message from another man who was against Hauck's hiring. I'm in no way trying to paint anyone here in a bad light. Just having dialogue.
I've never felt that I need any males on this forum to stick up for me specifically, even back before the #banding. I don't respond emotionally to the banter here and can dish it as well as taking it. So, please don't think I was calling anyone out on here.
In fact, my first post when I returned was that there is an entirely different feeling here than a few years ago. I enjoy the current personalities, humor and rivalries a lot. The tone has changed a lot for the better.
Also, when I refer to the need for dialogue and listening to different viewpoints, I have found eGriz posters to be FAR more receptive to that than some on the other side.
A lot of you saw the posts AG made about me and my Missoulian column supporting Hauck. Well, you may not know that I also got an ugly, personal, threatening message from another man who was against Hauck's hiring. I'm in no way trying to paint anyone here in a bad light. Just having dialogue.
GGNez said:
Okay, helpful. Understand and recall the examples. Still don't get the "culture" part. Even egriz, which has a lot of sexist posts, posters and too much tolerance of sexism, is not a "culture" of sexism, in my view. Also, I don't think think a forum, whose mods and posters allow sexist posts and allow or applaud posters like Alpha to do all of his stupid stuff, like make me a sandwich comments, is a "culture" of sexism.
Yes, it's true that women can be judged by physical appearance, but so can men, in some, but fewer, situations.
I just don't believe the tolerance of rape against women thing. I have never in my entire life been in a situation or with guys that tolerated rape.
I don't know what happened with Donaldson's victim, and never heard about the stuff you just said, but my view on her is why would she, a childhood friend, who supposedly had worked out whatever happened, come forward 16 months later to nail him. And set him up with a monitored call with the cops. What kind of "friend" would do that? If she applied for a job with any company I was with, and I knew who she was, I wouldn't hire her.
Also, I don't know how anyone other than the woman and Donaldson could possibly know that he raped her. He pled guilty, but I doubt that he ever admitted to anyone that he believed that he raped her. Perhaps I am wrong on that.
On freshman female inviting thing, my daughter's sorority did the same thing with men at her college. They also had a confidential email group which did exactly what guys have apparently done to women.
The MeToo movement has accomplished many good things, but the backlash is also significant. Business guys and others are not going to invite women to lunch, dinner, drinks, or go with them alone on a trip, like they would have until earlier last year. They just aren't going to take the chance. I have always had a lot of confidence with being around women in work situations over the years, but even I am not going to socialize with younger lawyers and staff like I once would have done and certainly not going to travel alone with female co-workers unless I know and trust them well.
Are you going GG? You would be a helpful voice.
Based on many of the comments I am reading, there are several posters, who, while may be technically correct, may not be helpful for the goal which, as I see it, is to help the vast majority of those at the meeting realize that Bobby is not the problem they see him as. I hope others see that what the organizers of this meeting are hoping for is open, male aggression against them so they can say, "See, I told you so."
I hope they don't have this opportunity, so their antagonism towards and fear of Bobby ball can die the natural death it deserves.
Based on many of the comments I am reading, there are several posters, who, while may be technically correct, may not be helpful for the goal which, as I see it, is to help the vast majority of those at the meeting realize that Bobby is not the problem they see him as. I hope others see that what the organizers of this meeting are hoping for is open, male aggression against them so they can say, "See, I told you so."
I hope they don't have this opportunity, so their antagonism towards and fear of Bobby ball can die the natural death it deserves.
Fuck me, a lose lose situation I get to hear people that are never happy bitch about for the next 6 months.
I’ll take shit I’ll never watch for $2000 Alex.
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I’ll take shit I’ll never watch for $2000 Alex.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
CV Griz Fan
Well-known member
Until Geddes includes her two cents on this topic, I’ll remain silent...
Here's the first para of the article that was linked:
"WHAT IS RAPE CULTURE?
Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women’s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women’s rights and safety."
Looking at the first sentence, does any place like that even exist, at least in the US? I know of none. Zero. Where is rape "prevalent" and sexual violence "normalized"?
Rape culture, again whatever that is., is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language. I don't agree with that. Misogyny doesn't equal rape. Nor does objectification of women's bodies.
I suppose I'm out of it at my advancing age, but where is sexual violence glamorized. Not in the world I hang out in.
"WHAT IS RAPE CULTURE?
Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women’s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women’s rights and safety."
Looking at the first sentence, does any place like that even exist, at least in the US? I know of none. Zero. Where is rape "prevalent" and sexual violence "normalized"?
Rape culture, again whatever that is., is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language. I don't agree with that. Misogyny doesn't equal rape. Nor does objectification of women's bodies.
I suppose I'm out of it at my advancing age, but where is sexual violence glamorized. Not in the world I hang out in.
More from the article and my comments in brackets:
EXAMPLES OF RAPE CULTURE
Blaming the victim (“She asked for it!”) [Would need more to answer that one. Maybe.]
Trivializing sexual assault (“Boys will be boys!”)
Sexually explicit jokes [Depends on the joke; not a "culture" to me.]
Tolerance of sexual harassment [On BS. That is total nonsense.]
Inflating false rape report statistics [I call BS on this one too. It's hard or impossible to measure this. In my view, there are lots of false rape accusations.]
Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress, mental state, motives, and history [Okay, but why is this rape culture?' I don't see culture in this at all.]
Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television [This is beyond my expertise.]
Defining “manhood” as dominant and sexually aggressive [Don't see what this has to do with rape.]
Defining “womanhood” as submissive and sexually passive {See above.]
Pressure on men to “score” [Okay, but having sex is not rape. Is there really pressure on men to score. Never was where I was.]
Pressure on women to not appear “cold” [Don't even understand this.]
Assuming only promiscuous women get raped
Assuming that men don’t get raped or that only “weak” men get raped [I suppose men get raped or taken advantage of by men.]
Refusing to take rape accusations seriously [Who does this at this point? Or, is it accusers who aren't believable think that anyone who doesn't believe them are not being taken seriously.]
Teaching women to avoid getting raped [This is total BS. Who wouldn't teach their daughters to avoid getting raped. My god, this is the dumbest thing in the whole list.]
EXAMPLES OF RAPE CULTURE
Blaming the victim (“She asked for it!”) [Would need more to answer that one. Maybe.]
Trivializing sexual assault (“Boys will be boys!”)
Sexually explicit jokes [Depends on the joke; not a "culture" to me.]
Tolerance of sexual harassment [On BS. That is total nonsense.]
Inflating false rape report statistics [I call BS on this one too. It's hard or impossible to measure this. In my view, there are lots of false rape accusations.]
Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress, mental state, motives, and history [Okay, but why is this rape culture?' I don't see culture in this at all.]
Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television [This is beyond my expertise.]
Defining “manhood” as dominant and sexually aggressive [Don't see what this has to do with rape.]
Defining “womanhood” as submissive and sexually passive {See above.]
Pressure on men to “score” [Okay, but having sex is not rape. Is there really pressure on men to score. Never was where I was.]
Pressure on women to not appear “cold” [Don't even understand this.]
Assuming only promiscuous women get raped
Assuming that men don’t get raped or that only “weak” men get raped [I suppose men get raped or taken advantage of by men.]
Refusing to take rape accusations seriously [Who does this at this point? Or, is it accusers who aren't believable think that anyone who doesn't believe them are not being taken seriously.]
Teaching women to avoid getting raped [This is total BS. Who wouldn't teach their daughters to avoid getting raped. My god, this is the dumbest thing in the whole list.]
FYI Coach Hauck has never supported a culture of sexual misconduct! This petition was the by-product of one woman's witch hunt concerning her anti male views.. Women need to accept their role in this problem! After all it takes two to Tango... C'mon girls pull yourselves together here! Killary lost move on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We can not eliminate the problem until we all recognize the problem! both males and females must admit their guilt! Go Griz! God Bless.......................
This is to explain what they mean about teaching women not to get raped. Just providing an explanation of the meaning: https://www.theodysseyonline.com/stop-teaching-how-to-not-get-raped