Why Rob Ash will not win a NC

[CDAGRIZ]

Since this thread went sideways (shocking, I know), I'm just going to post this for poops and giggles:

Well done, Optimus. It's a well known fact that Levar ends all arguments. Butterfly in the sky.

 

[Cotton-eyed Hoe]

It might be fun to speculate as to how many NCs Coach Ron Ash would win if he had JJ at the helm, no?

 

[OptimusPrime]

Since this thread went sideways (shocking, I know), I'm just going to post this for poops and giggles:

Well done, Optimus. It's a well known fact that Levar ends all arguments. Butterfly in the sky.

That GIF just kills me. I'm glad I could bring some much needed laughter after such an important conversation...
Here's one more for good measure:

 

[horribilisfan8184]

that "might" explain 2012, but does nothing for your 2013 argument.

22 additional TDs in 2013, and the same number of special teams plus interception/fumble returns TDs in both years, supports my observation--not yours. I'll have my full report later in the week.

If JJ had played he could have suffered a season ending injury in the first quarter of the first game in 2012. Anybody who has ever played the game knows that. I don't know which is dumber, the rank speculation of this sophomoric argument or not letting it drop. Let's move on to something important, like whose dog is better.

True, and he also could have thrown a half dozen TD passes every game. So what's your point?

And if the fox hadn't stopped to take a dump he would have caught the rabbit.

My point was to give you a face-saving out for how foolish you look perpetuating a pointless, unprovable proposition. Unless your point all along was to turn this thread into "sillytown"

 

[AZGrizFan]

you've merely reframed the discussion to support your argument. you've done nothing to discredit the way those games played out and the lack of effect j.j. would have on those games. the number of tds scored isn't necessarily a determining factor in the outcome of a season. there have many instances where the losing team of a series of games has scored more runs, points, tds.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That might be the funniest thing I've heard or seen since John Madden was quoted as saying "I find that the team that scores the most points usually wins!"

 

[getgrizzy]

you've merely reframed the discussion to support your argument. you've done nothing to discredit the way those games played out and the lack of effect j.j. would have on those games. the number of tds scored isn't necessarily a determining factor in the outcome of a season. there have many instances where the losing team of a series of games has scored more runs, points, tds.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That might be the funniest thing I've heard or seen since John Madden was quoted as saying "I find that the team that scores the most points usually wins!"

that's a good one.

in 1960 pittsburgh beat new york 4 games to 3, but the yanks outscored the pirates 55-27. the yanks won 16-3, 10-0, and 12-0. pirates wins were 6-4, 3-2, 5-2, 10-9. afterwards yogi berra said "we made too many wrong mistakes" and i bet mick was saying same in 2012. things balanced out nicely for him in 2013.

 

[getgrizzy]

btw the 2001 natl champs scored 50 tds in 12 reg season games. that's about the same pace as the 2012 team which had 44 in 11 games. put that in your report.

 

[AZGrizFan]

you've merely reframed the discussion to support your argument. you've done nothing to discredit the way those games played out and the lack of effect j.j. would have on those games. the number of tds scored isn't necessarily a determining factor in the outcome of a season. there have many instances where the losing team of a series of games has scored more runs, points, tds.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That might be the funniest thing I've heard or seen since John Madden was quoted as saying "I find that the team that scores the most points usually wins!"

that's a good one.

in 1960 pittsburgh beat new york 4 games to 3, but the yanks outscored the pirates 55-27. the yanks won 16-3, 10-0, and 12-0. pirates wins were 6-4, 3-2, 5-2, 10-9. afterwards yogi berra said "we made too many wrong mistakes" and i bet mick was saying same in 2012. things balanced out nicely for him in 2013.

While "technically" correct, as you can see from the below set of standings, the final season standings certainly mirror the "points scored" standings a hell of a lot closer than the "points allowed" standings, with a few notable outliers.

Standings/Scoring Offense/Scoring Defense

EWU/EWU/CP
NAU/Montana/SUU
Montana/MSU/UCD
MSU/Cal Poly/NAU
SUU/PSU/UM
CP/Sac State/MSU
UCD/NAU/EWU
Sac State/UCD/Sac St
PSU/ISU/PSU
UND/UNC/UNC
ISU/UND/ISU
WSU/SUU/UND
UNC/WSU/WSU

 

[poorgriz]

you've merely reframed the discussion to support your argument. you've done nothing to discredit the way those games played out and the lack of effect j.j. would have on those games. the number of tds scored isn't necessarily a determining factor in the outcome of a season. there have many instances where the losing team of a series of games has scored more runs, points, tds.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That might be the funniest thing I've heard or seen since John Madden was quoted as saying "I find that the team that scores the most points usually wins!"

that's a good one.

in 1960 pittsburgh beat new york 4 games to 3, but the yanks outscored the pirates 55-27. the yanks won 16-3, 10-0, and 12-0. pirates wins were 6-4, 3-2, 5-2, 10-9. afterwards yogi berra said "we made too many wrong mistakes" and i bet mick was saying same in 2012. things balanced out nicely for him in 2013.

While "technically" correct, as you can see from the below set of standings, the final season standings certainly mirror the "points scored" standings a hell of a lot closer than the "points allowed" standings, with a few notable outliers.

Standings/Scoring Offense/Scoring Defense

EWU/EWU/CP
NAU/Montana/SUU
Montana/MSU/UCD
MSU/Cal Poly/NAU
SUU/PSU/UM
CP/Sac State/MSU
UCD/NAU/EWU
Sac State/UCD/Sac St
PSU/ISU/PSU
UND/UNC/UNC
ISU/UND/ISU
WSU/SUU/UND
UNC/WSU/WSU

Hmmm... I don't know what this list is telling me.

 

[PlayerRep]

You don't seem to understand or want to admit that a great qb (especially compared to no experience at qb) will cause his team to be ahead by more points, to get more FDs later in the game (and give the defense more rest and take the pressure off them, and be able to score more later in the game if needed. As a result, big plays like you want to emphasize don't or won't matter as much.

Also, you don't seem to understand that big plays often occur in most seasons. That's the nature of competitive football. In addition, emphasizing a dramatic blocked FG at the end of a game over a dropped pass for TD earlier in the game, is not the way to analyze a game. Both plays likely had similar impact on the game.

Views like this of yours are what causes me to believe you never played the game and don't understand the game. While some of your views like this are debatable, I find many of them to be laughable. If you want to discuss/debate football, you are, of course, welcome to your views. However, as the discussion progresses, I generally don't believe in ribbons for participation.

fear not. i understand all those things. you don't seem to understand that despite having j.j. on the field we still needed a blocked fg to beat a .500 team at home and a fumble ret for td and ko ret for td to beat a below .500 team.

had the 2012 team simply recovered an onside kick or held a qb to 500 yards instead of 660, we would've been 7-4 or even 8-3 by simply holding a rb somewhat in check at home.

Yes, teams get breaks and/or make great plays, and opponents get breaks and/or make big plays. This is how competitive football is. However, if you team is up by another TD or so, none of those plays matter or make the difference. Don't know why you can't understand that.

Yes, every football game and season has tons of plays and calls that are important, even critical. However, what I'm trying to discuss/debate here, is that the impact that a single factor, the presence of JJ in 2012, would have had on the season. Again, that single factor. That single variable. It doesn't further the discussion to keep trying to discuss other factors. I can't tell if some of you don't understand how to discuss a single point or variable, or are incapable of it--or are just trying to avoid the discussion (presumably because you know you can win the argument, or support your own argument).

omg! i didn't know it was so complex. :roll:

you realize that mckinney was 14-17 no ints and ran for 95 yards against e.w.u. j.j. wouldn't have done much better if at all. ssh was 26-39-0 for 306 and 3 tds vs nodak. again, not much more could be expected from j.j. then j.j. was 17-33-3, sacked 4 times at sodak. ssh or mckinney wouldn't have done much worse.

Yes, I believe that JJ is, and would have been in 2012, much better than McKinney. Ditto for S-H. Generally speaking, whatever numbers the other qb's put up in a particular game, I believe JJ would have done better, as well as provided better leadership and given the rest of the team more confidence. Thus, JJ would have gotten a better result. If you don't believe JJ is much better than the qb's in 2012, then there's no point in having a discussion with you.

At EWU, McKinney's completions resulted in 126 yards, with a long of 27, and 1 sack. No passing TD's. 63 of those yards came in the last 53 seconds of the game, when EWU was in prevent D. Prior to the last 53 seconds, McKinney was 10-13 for 63 yards.Too little, too late. I believe JJ would have passed more and gotten way more yards than 126. I think JJ would have done better than a 3 and out with 5:46 to go. I believe UM would have won the game with JJ.

The N.D. game was a shoot out. Whatever S-H did, I believe JJ would have done better. I think JJ would have gotten points in the last 21 minutes of the game, and hung onto the lead. In that time period, in the last 6 drives, UM had 26 plays for 88 yards. S-H was 7-12 for 41 yards, with a sack and a fumble. That's a horrible way to finish off the last 21 minutes of a game, when you have a lead. JJ is very good at the end of games and at the end of the first half. He would have done much better than 0 points and 88 yards (41 passing) in the last 6 drives and 21 minutes.

In the USD game you mention, with JJ at qb, UM won the game. That underscores my point. JJ is a great qb. He's a great leader. He knows how to win, and finds a way to win, regardless of his stats.

You keep proving my point, i.e. that JJ is a great qb, great leader, would have performed better during and later in games, and would have helped the team win most the games it lost in 2012. In 2012, the UM offense didn't produce later in games in most of the games UM lost. In some of those games, the offensive production later in the games was really bad. In the 2 games you mentioned, the qb production was either weak for the game, and weak in the later part of the game. That's when JJ is often at his best.

 

[get'em_griz]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That might be the funniest thing I've heard or seen since John Madden was quoted as saying "I find that the team that scores the most points usually wins!"

that's a good one.

in 1960 pittsburgh beat new york 4 games to 3, but the yanks outscored the pirates 55-27. the yanks won 16-3, 10-0, and 12-0. pirates wins were 6-4, 3-2, 5-2, 10-9. afterwards yogi berra said "we made too many wrong mistakes" and i bet mick was saying same in 2012. things balanced out nicely for him in 2013.

While "technically" correct, as you can see from the below set of standings, the final season standings certainly mirror the "points scored" standings a hell of a lot closer than the "points allowed" standings, with a few notable outliers.

Standings/Scoring Offense/Scoring Defense

EWU/EWU/CP
NAU/Montana/SUU
Montana/MSU/UCD
MSU/Cal Poly/NAU
SUU/PSU/UM
CP/Sac State/MSU
UCD/NAU/EWU
Sac State/UCD/Sac St
PSU/ISU/PSU
UND/UNC/UNC
ISU/UND/ISU
WSU/SUU/UND
UNC/WSU/WSU

Hmmm... I don't know what this list is telling me.

Standings/Scoring Offense/Scoring Defense

EWU(1)/EWU(1)/CP(1)
NAU(2)/Montana(2)/SUU(2)
Montana(3)/MSU(3)/UCD(3)
MSU(4)/Cal Poly(4)/NAU(4)
SUU(5)/PSU(5)/Montana(5)
CP(6)/Sac State(6)/MSU(6)
UCD(7)/NAU(7)/EWU(7)
Sac State(8)/UCD(8)/Sac St(8)
PSU(9)/ISU(9)/PSU(9)
UND(10)/UNC(10)/UNC(10)
ISU(11)/UND(11)/ISU(11)
WSU(12)/SUU(12)/UND(12)
UNC(13)/WSU(13)/WSU(13)

 

[nzone]

Winning a national championship requires having all the pieces at the same time. Ash hasn't been close to having that and still doesn't. This year they are touting having the best o-line,prolific running backs, and a good quarterback. Their o-line is basically the same one that had DM running for his life, they only have one proven running back(Johnson) and virtually no receivers(Roderick). The quarterback has yet to play a down I believe(Prukop)'. They will be a typical cat team....a good defense supported by a 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense. Sorry but the 2014 cats will not win the national championship. They will be lucky to win 7-8 games.

 

[SACCAT66]

Winning a national championship requires having all the pieces at the same time. Ash hasn't been close to having that and still doesn't. This year they are touting having the best o-line,prolific running backs, and a good quarterback. Their o-line is basically the same one that had DM running for his life, they only have one proven running back(Johnson) and virtually no receivers(Roderick). The quarterback has yet to play a down I believe(Prukop)'. They will be a typical cat team....a good defense supported by a 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense. Sorry but the 2014 cats will not win the national championship. They will be lucky to win 7-8 games.

 

[mcg]

The point is that JJ would have helped the team score more TD's in 2012 and provided more offense and first downs in the second half of the some of the games that were lost--so that the team would have been ahead more and able to keep the defense from getting worn out as much as they did. The plays you refer to wouldn't have mattered, had UM been ahead more, scoring more later in games, and keeping the defense off the field. This was obvious to people who followed the games closely (and understand the game). Lots of people were making these observations in real time as the season was progressing in 2012.

My more detailed analysis is in progress.

that "might" explain 2012, but does nothing for your 2013 argument.

22 additional TDs in 2013, and the same number of special teams plus interception/fumble returns TDs in both years, supports my observation--not yours. I'll have my full report later in the week.

If JJ had played he could have suffered a season ending injury in the first quarter of the first game in 2012. Anybody who has ever played the game knows that. I don't know which is dumber, the rank speculation of this sophomoric argument or not letting it drop. Let's move on to something important, like whose dog is better.

No, no, no, I want to discuss whose dead dog was smarter.