Watering down of FCS

[EverettGriz]

Kem, you may be right. I'm not going to argue with you. I can only quote the fellow who sits in front of us who said, "Well, I'm not going to pay to watch a team that doesn't win."

Then lets drop down to DII. F-ck, we"ll win all the time and sell 69,000 tickets..... :roll:

Anyone who stops going to games because the Griz lose a close game to Nevada or Colorado State or Hawaii would also leave as soon as the new Halo comes out. Or there's a Mad About You marathon on. Or it's two-for-one taco Saturday at Taco Johns. And those people will MORE than be made up for by fans who care only about football at the top level.

Again, this whole thinking is such a Montana defeatist line of thought: oh, we might lose 200 front runners!! We can't afford that. Don't do anything to stretch the status quo!!! Maybe we need to start seeing those "fans" as the dead weight they are.

 

[Hammer]

So UM has shitty, fair weather fans now?

Remarkable. Anything to try and support a position.

That is exactly the way being a sports fan works. One just has to look down I-5 from you for an example. The UW Huskies have a fan base that is far more entrenched with a much more proud tradition than the Griz and look at what happened to them once the losing started.

Since 1990 there have been 126 home games at Husky Stadium. With a seating capacity of 74,000, there have been 38 games with less than 70,000 attendance, and 88 with greater than 70K attendance. There have been 9 games with less than 60,000 in attendance.

The losing started in 2004. Of the 38 games with less than 70K, 33 of those games came in 2004 or later. All 9 of the games with less than 60K came after the losing started. The 27 lowest attended games in Husky Stadium since 1990 all came in 2004 or later.

Those sub-70K games included:

#16 California
#3 USC
#19 California
#5 California
#1 USC
#15 BYU
#7 Oregon
#3 Oklahoma
#11 Oregon
#1 USC
#11 Louisiana State

If UM goes FBS, the current fans stay, and we attract fans who otherwise don't care about FCS football (and there are many more of those in MT than you think).

I think there are seven. Seven people in the entire state of Montana who are college football fans that don't care about FBS. The Griz already statistically draw about 1 out of every 5 fans in all of Missoula County. The Huskies draw about 1 out of every 50 people in the Puget Sound Metro area. There is far more margin for error at UW with more tradition and they have suffered greatly. It can and will happen in Missoula if/when the consistent losing starts. Look at Griz basketball on how to alienate a once rabid fan base.

There seems to be a lot of talk about how Griz athletics will make more money by moving up and getting a slice of a bigger pie consisting of splitting TV and bowl game revenue. That may (or may not) be true. What will be true is that the muppers will soon discover that there will in fact be more people willing to watch the Griz beat EWU than there will be fans willing to go watch them get blown out by Colorado State.

Once that happens and home attendance is now half of what it used to be, the athletic department may (or may not) have more $$ in the coffers. But the bars & restaurants that currently make a killing after Griz games that have to close the doors will be a multi-million $ hit to the local Missoula economy. The good news will be that it will take about 30 seconds to get a beer at the Press Box.

The Colorado States and Wyomings of the world would be novelties the first year or two and the stadium would be packed, but if the Griz were to finish below .500 for a few seasons you will definitely see attendance fall and it will be those that were in favor of the move that will be the absent fans.

 

[EverettGriz]

So UM has shitty, fair weather fans now?

Remarkable. Anything to try and support a position.

That is exactly the way being a sports fan works. One just has to look down I-5 from you for an example. The UW Huskies have a fan base that is far more entrenched with a much more proud tradition than the Griz and look at what happened to them once the losing started.

Since 1990 there have been 126 home games at Husky Stadium. With a seating capacity of 74,000, there have been 38 games with less than 70,000 attendance, and 88 with greater than 70K attendance. There have been 9 games with less than 60,000 in attendance.

The losing started in 2004. Of the 38 games with less than 70K, 33 of those games came in 2004 or later. All 9 of the games with less than 60K came after the losing started. The 27 lowest attended games in Husky Stadium since 1990 all came in 2004 or later.

Those sub-70K games included:

#16 California
#3 USC
#19 California
#5 California
#1 USC
#15 BYU
#7 Oregon
#3 Oklahoma
#11 Oregon
#1 USC
#11 Louisiana State

If UM goes FBS, the current fans stay, and we attract fans who otherwise don't care about FCS football (and there are many more of those in MT than you think).

I think there are seven. Seven people in the entire state of Montana who are college football fans that don't care about FBS. The Griz already statistically draw about 1 out of every 5 fans in all of Missoula County. The Huskies draw about 1 out of every 50 people in the Puget Sound Metro area. There is far more margin for error at UW with more tradition and they have suffered greatly. It can and will happen in Missoula if/when the consistent losing starts. Look at Griz basketball on how to alienate a once rabid fan base.

There seems to be a lot of talk about how Griz athletics will make more money by moving up and getting a slice of a bigger pie consisting of splitting TV and bowl game revenue. That may (or may not) be true. What will be true is that the muppers will soon discover that there will in fact be more people willing to watch the Griz beat EWU than there will be fans willing to go watch them get blown out by Colorado State.

Once that happens and home attendance is now half of what it used to be, the athletic department may (or may not) have more $$ in the coffers. But the bars & restaurants that currently make a killing after Griz games that have to close the doors will be a multi-million $ hit to the local Missoula economy. The good news will be that it will take about 30 seconds to get a beer at the Press Box.

Your analogy doesn't work. The Huskies already play FBS football. Yes, winning teams draw better than losing teams. But since Eastern has had better recent success than UW, for your analogy to hold, they should outdraw UW. So why don't they? (Answer is below)

And the percentage of those attending is a worthless stat. What's the percentage of those in Manhattan, KS who attend? What's the percentage of those in LA who attend UCLA games? Completely meaningless.





answer: they're an FCS program and few people care.

 

[Hammer]

answer: they're an FCS program and few people care.

And the Griz are FCS and a lot of people care, way more now than 3 or 4 years of .500 ball at the FBS level.

it really doesn't matter tho, after realignment there will be no FBS or FCS. I guess we will see how it goes. Hope our spoiled fanbase has some patience.

 

[Grizzoola]

Then lets drop down to DII. F-ck, we"ll win all the time and sell 69,000 tickets..... :roll:
Anyone who stops going to games because the Griz lose a close game to Nevada or Colorado State or Hawaii would also leave as soon as the new Halo comes out. Or there's a Mad About You marathon on. Or it's two-for-one taco Saturday at Taco Johns. And those people will MORE than be made up for by fans who care only about football at the top level.

Again, this whole thinking is such a Montana defeatist line of thought: oh, we might lose 200 front runners!! We can't afford that. Don't do anything to stretch the status quo!!! Maybe we need to start seeing those "fans" as the dead weight they are.

Like many, if not most, eGrizzers, I've got mixed feelings re: move-up, move-down, talk. Well, move-down is irrelevant & a waste of eGriz space. Yes, during Hauck's reign, moving up was a legitimate argument. If O'Day & Pflu hadn't got fired, and if JJ hadn't been grounded last year, maybe move-up would still be legitimate. But, hopefully, we're starting a new era of Griz winnings.

I'm not saying we have to win x NC's before we can think of moving up, since many other FCS teams are moving up w/o NC wins. There's factors other than winning FCS NC's, apparently, in schools decisions to move up. For one thing, it's different in the more populated East than in the less populated West. Maybe more money & commitment, there. Look at the money & commitment behind Boise State, even if in the West.

I do believe UM & maybe even MSU, can give the CSUs, WYs, the AFAs, the UNLVs, a run for their money. To me, it depends on what Griz fans want to see: simply wins regardless of the quality of the opposition, or some losses to higher level teams, with the benefit of seeing better quality football.

Then, of course, it's up to the BOR, the big money boosters, maybe even the legislature re: how they see the thing & I think all they want is a competitive Griz in the BSC & the FCS. It's good enough for them, IOW.

 

[grizfan95]

If UM goes FBS, the current fans stay, and we attract fans who otherwise don't care about FCS football (and there are many more of those in MT than you think).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Everett, I'm not sure that would be the case. Oh, I would be here, no matter what, as I have been for the last 50+ years, but there are a good many fans who became fans only after the Griz started winning in the mid-90s. They know nothing, or little, anyway, of the pre-Read Griz, and I'm not at all sure they would hang around for more than a losing year or two. That's just my opinion, based mostly on what I've heard the people who sit around us say. Actually, I'm really anxious for this-coming season to arrive, to see if the several individuals who've sat near us for 10-15 years actually did as they said they were going to do (as a result of last season's showing), and did not renew their season tickets for 2013.

The cases of not renewing season tickets that I am aware of had nothing to do with the performance of the team last year, but rather with their total lack of respect for UM admin. One couple dropped them because they were tired of paying top dollar for a season that contains less than top dollar competition. Pan Handle St. was the tipping point. Not worth driving several hundred miles each way for PR's gameday atmosphere for an unrespected opponent.

Most fans I know and associate with want to see good competitive teams come into Wash/Griz and love to see the Griz challenged, not knowing whether they will win or not, but knowing it will be an achievement if they do. Then there is something to really cellebrate when they win, especially if they were underdogs. That was the energy around the last ASU playoff game and will be again this fall. Last year aside, that has been rare in Missoula. Fans in this area have more energy around next year's Wyoming game than anything this year in Missoula. When they win, it will be right up there with the JMU win on the road in spite of no playoff ramifications.

Then that couple would be disappointed fans in Tuscaloosa and Eugene too. Alabama has 2 home games against FCS opponents and Oregon opens at home against Nicholls State. PR is right; soft fans are abundant.

 

[NorthwestFresh]

If the FCS is watered down now, then it doesn't say much for the UM program that they have missed the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 years, does it?

 

[NorthwestFresh]

I see you cherry picked the seasons you wanted to highlight. Marshall fired their DC that was not fit to run a defense. To give you an idea how bad he is as DC, its the main reason Paul Pasqualoni was fired at Syacuse. Chris Rippon was the DC at Cuse in 02, 03 and 04. Each year the D- got worse. We avged 40.6 points a game last year. We just couldn't stop anyone.

In the last 3 years Marshall has had the #3 NAQ recruiting class (2011) and the #1 NAQ recruiting class (2012, 2013). We have had 13 4 star players and 43 3 star players commit to us. We have had 21 recruits that are in the top 20 at their position and 8 of those were in the top 10 at their position. We have also taken the top recruit out of South Florida the last 3 years in Kevin Grooms RB, AJ Leggett DB/LB and Angelo Jean-Louis WR.

Some of you may or may not like him but Phil Steele has give Marshall as his #1 most improved team status to. This is after 9 year of him saying we would win no more than 5 games per season.

Also come fall of 2014 it should be that much more easy for Marshall to recruit. Starting last year our vision campaign which had been silent for 3 years went public. The vision campaign was set up to do 30 million dollars in facilities which include: a soccer complex, IAC (Indoor Athletic Complex) which will hold a 120 yard football field, 6 lane 300m track, batting cages for baseball and softball, portable rolling tennis courts, nets for a driving range and seats for aprox 750 people. Included in the IAC will also be a Hall of Fame, Academic Center and a Sports Medicine Center.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtmhLfYmmVs[/youtube]
Marshall IAC Groundbreaking

Not included in the vision campaign but on going right now is 2 new suites going up at Joan C Edwards Stadium. Both have already been bought with an 8 year contract of 65K per year.

How is giving the last 9 years' record "cherry picking"? Marshall is an irrelevant FBS program who struggles for a .500 record. :roll:

 

[NorthwestFresh]

If UM goes FBS, the current fans stay, and we attract fans who otherwise don't care about FCS football (and there are many more of those in MT than you think).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Everett, I'm not sure that would be the case. Oh, I would be here, no matter what, as I have been for the last 50+ years, but there are a good many fans who became fans only after the Griz started winning in the mid-90s. They know nothing, or little, anyway, of the pre-Read Griz, and I'm not at all sure they would hang around for more than a losing year or two. That's just my opinion, based mostly on what I've heard the people who sit around us say. Actually, I'm really anxious for this-coming season to arrive, to see if the several individuals who've sat near us for 10-15 years actually did as they said they were going to do (as a result of last season's showing), and did not renew their season tickets for 2013.

I'm desperately trying to convince my parents to renew their tickets, but the GSA payment for the seats, and lackluster performance on the field, means a lot of money out of pocket. I have to laugh at EverettGriz, who thinks that Griz fans will show up no matter what, even for a .500 FBS team.

 

[get'em_griz]

Any team who goes .500 for a period of time will see attendance fall. Even Alabama would see attendance fall if they had a few .500 seasons in-a-row.

 

[getgrizzy]

it's not a question of whether we could win or not. it's a question of money. we don't have the money and we probably never will. end of story.

 

[Bluenoser]

Your analogy doesn't work. The Huskies already play FBS football. Yes, winning teams draw better than losing teams. But since Eastern has had better recent success than UW, for your analogy to hold, they should outdraw UW. So why don't they? (Answer is below)

answer: they're an FCS program and few people care.

That or the fact that EWU - with a similar enrollment to UM - is exactly where it should be based on supporting population.

And the percentage of those attending is a worthless stat. What's the percentage of those in Manhattan, KS who attend? What's the percentage of those in LA who attend UCLA games? Completely meaningless.

Another good point, until you take a few minutes to look at the #'s. Kansas State's Bill Snyder Stadium has a capacity of 50,000 and Manhattan, Kansas has a population of around 50,000, or an attendance of 1:1 based on highly localized population.

Well, there you have it. If Manhattan, KS with a population of ~50K can support a BCS football team then Missoula with a population of ~100K surely can.

Until you look at the #'s a little more closely. KSU has a graduating class of roughly 2x of what UM has. After 40 years that is well over 100,000 more graduates, many of whom remain in the area with enough disposable income to buy season tickets.

Where Kansas has 1 city with over 300,000 residents, Montana has zero.

Where Kansas has 5 cities with over 120,000 residents, Montana has zero.

Where Kansas has 36 towns and cities with over 10,000 residents, Montana has seven.

Fortune 500 companies: Kansas 3, Montana 0.

Throw in Kansas City, Missouri with over 460,000 residents and the population able to support a BCS program is vastly greater in Manhattan than it is in Missoula.



Your main argument seems to be that with bigger name attractions coming to town, the UM could fill a larger stadium because true football fans like seeing contests with higher quality athletes. If that is true, then why not get an NFL team? If there are 10,000 to 20,000 more fans that would come to watch Fresno State come to town, then surely Missoula County and the state of Montana would sell out a stadium of 65,000 when the Cincinnati Bengals come to town to play the NFC West's Frenchtown Moose.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Where Kansas has 5 cities with over 120,000 residents, Montana has zero.

Where Kansas has 36 towns and cities with over 10,000 residents, Montana has seven.

I get where you're going with this, but where did you get your stats? Using Wikipedia's #'s (which it appears you're doing) they're leaving off the almost 45% of Montana's population that lives in unicorporated areas...

Billings metro: 162,000
Great Falls metro: 59,000
Butte metro: 34,200
Helena metro: 28,180
Bozeman metro: 37,280
Missoula metro: 109,299
Kalispell metro: 20,008
Hamilton metro: 15,393

And that's just off the top of my head....

County populations from the 2010 census:

Missoula - 108,623
Ravalli - 40,431
Lake - 28,605
Sanders - 11,096
Lincoln - 18,717
Flathead - 89,624
Teton - 6,088
Lewis & Clark - 61,942
Powell - 7,089
Deer Lodge - 8,792
Jefferson - 11,470
Silverbow -32,949
Cascade - 82,168

That's 507,594 people in the NW/W corner of the state within 3-4 hours driving time of Missoula. And that doesn't count the UM grads/fans in Eastern Washington, Idaho, or those that drive MORE than 3-4 hours already (Billings, Havre, etc).

 

[Bluenoser]

Metropolitan areas it is then:

Wichita: 630,721
Topeka: 233,870
Kansas City: 2,343,008
Manhattan: 127,081
Douglas County: 112,864

3,447,544 people within 2 hours drive time (instead of 3 to 4) of Manhattan, KS. Almost 7x the population of NW Montana.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Metropolitan areas it is then:

Wichita: 630,721
Topeka: 233,870
Kansas City: 2,343,008
Manhattan: 127,081
Douglas County: 112,864

3,447,544 people within 2 hours drive time (instead of 3 to 4) of Manhattan, KS. Almost 7x the population of NW Montana.

Yeah, but lets be real. 3,000,000 of those are Nebraska fans. :lol:

And honestly, I don't care one way or the other....just pointing out that there's over half a million people within 3-4 hours drive time to try and fill a 30,000 seat stadium (assuming expansion) 6-7 times a year. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. Perhaps a better comparison would be Washington State University?

 

[UNDfan]

Your analogy doesn't work. The Huskies already play FBS football. Yes, winning teams draw better than losing teams. But since Eastern has had better recent success than UW, for your analogy to hold, they should outdraw UW. So why don't they? (Answer is below)

answer: they're an FCS program and few people care.

That or the fact that EWU - with a similar enrollment to UM - is exactly where it should be based on supporting population.

And the percentage of those attending is a worthless stat. What's the percentage of those in Manhattan, KS who attend? What's the percentage of those in LA who attend UCLA games? Completely meaningless.

Another good point, until you take a few minutes to look at the #'s. Kansas State's Bill Snyder Stadium has a capacity of 50,000 and Manhattan, Kansas has a population of around 50,000, or an attendance of 1:1 based on highly localized population.

Well, there you have it. If Manhattan, KS with a population of ~50K can support a BCS football team then Missoula with a population of ~100K surely can.

Until you look at the #'s a little more closely. KSU has a graduating class of roughly 2x of what UM has. After 40 years that is well over 100,000 more graduates, many of whom remain in the area with enough disposable income to buy season tickets.

Where Kansas has 1 city with over 300,000 residents, Montana has zero.

Where Kansas has 5 cities with over 120,000 residents, Montana has zero.

Where Kansas has 36 towns and cities with over 10,000 residents, Montana has seven.

Fortune 500 companies: Kansas 3, Montana 0.

Throw in Kansas City, Missouri with over 460,000 residents and the population able to support a BCS program is vastly greater in Manhattan than it is in Missoula.

Kansas State is a horrible example to use: the B12 with today's expansion rules wouldn't have included Kansas St. Kansas State is only at the level it is today because of two people: Bill Snyder and former President Jon Wefald, plus the fact that Texas and Oklahoma agreed to stay in the Big 12 and not move to a Pac 16. Snyder and Wefald allowed KSU to stay in the Big 8 for more than historical reasons prior to it becoming the Big 12, otherwise KSU would have been dumped and the Big 8 would have added 5 schools from the Southwest Conference to get to 12.

Kansas St, Iowa St, and Baylor would not get any interest from upper level FBS conferences if the Big 12 falls apart. KSU is fourth behind the Chiefs, Mizzou, and the Jayhawks in Kansas City, and is third in other Kansas towns, except rural west Kansas where it rules.

Montana needed a Jon Wefald when it fell out of association with the PAC10 grouping. Even getting into the old WAC would have allowed Montana to at least have the same status as Wyoming, but apparently Montana didn't historically have leaders to understand the consequences of dropping three levels in competition and academics.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/unlv-rebels/football/keeping-faith" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wefald, who is still president at Kansas State, was determined to run a successful academic and athletic institution when he took charge in 1986.

"People didn't think (Kansas State) could be turned around," said school President Jon Wefald, adding that the situation then at the school was 10 times worse than what UNLV is going through today.

The Big Eight conference, now the Big 12, didn't want the Wildcats, and expulsion would have meant a probable demotion from Division I-A.

Kansas State decided to go for broke to build a program that had showed few signs of a pulse.

In what became known as the "Miracle in Manhattan," the Wildcats pulled off one of the greatest turnarounds in college sports and became a national powerhouse.

It's an example that provides hope to programs similar to UNLV.

"It's not a secret formula," said Bill Snyder, the Kansas State coach who orchestrated the feat. "We don't have it hidden away some place in a vault. It's about people. It's about hard work. It's about persistence. It's about responsibility. It's about discipline. It's about finding a way to become a little bit better every single day."

The Wildcats were known as a basketball school, but the black cloud that was the football program cast an ominous shadow over the entire institution.

First, Wefald improved academics, and within five years, enrollment increased from 16,000 to 22,000 and research funding went from $17 million to $112 million.

Since 1986, Kansas State leads all public universities and is seventh among all schools in its the number of Rhodes, Marshall, Truman, Goldwater and Udall scholarship recipients. The total of 113 surpasses runner-up Penn State's 82, among all public institutions.

"Academic success is never a front-page story, but the faculty never would've put up with a one-dimensional operation," Wefald said.

Even so, he admitted the football program's rise contributed to his efforts to improve Kansas State academically.

The decision to make a serious effort to improve the football program came early in the 1988 season when coach Stan Parrish resigned.

The Wildcats went 0-11 in 1988 to extend their slide to 27 straight games, the closest brush with victory being a 17-17 tie with Kansas in 1987.

 

[Bluenoser]

Kansas State is a horrible example to use

I'm not the one that originally brought them into the conversation.

And personally I would rather be where the Griz are than Wyoming.

 

[EverettGriz]

KState was only brought into the conversation due to some nebulous discussion regarding attendance vs population (which was meaningless).

That said, ANYone with at least one semester of accounting would rather be K State than any of the top 20 FCS teams. Combined.



That oughta tell you sumpin.....

 

[Bluenoser]

KState was only brought into the conversation due to some nebulous discussion regarding attendance vs population (which was meaningless).

If it truly is meaningless, why doesn't Montana have an NFL team? We're the #1 state in the nation in billionaires per capita:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_the_number_of_billionaires" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Surely one of them would recognize Montana's ability to support high caliber football and would have moved one here wouldn't you think? You've convinced me and I'm with you. I bet the talks are already underway.

Do you think our best shot is expansion or relocation? Personally, I think the Buffalo Bills are ripe for relocation. Plenty of wide-open space near St. Ignatius for a new stadium, just think of the views you'd have from the NW end zone! After celebrating a Tom Brady sack you could gaze eastward at the remnants of the Pleistocene Epoch, rising majestically above the pole dancers on the bleacher roof on the east side of Fred's Lounge Stadium.

With a highway system that would bring in fans from Missoula, Frenchtown, Arlee, Kalispell, Hot Springs, Moise, Old Agency, Polson, Pablo, Ronan, Charlo, Plains, Superior, T-Falls, Noxon, Heron, Troy, Libby, Trego, Fortine, and Eureka, and Bam! The Buffalo Bills are now the Montana Buffalos! Instead of just one Buffalo named Ralphie we have the entire National Bison Refuge right down the street. Can you imagine the intimidation factor of Ryan Tannehill trying to warm up in the middle of a herd of buffalo pre-game?

I can even see a tunnel directly east under the Mission Range so fans from Seeley Lake and Lake Alva can cut their drive-time down. And since our goal is to become Boise-like in every way possible regardless of the cost, we wouldn't even need to leave the AFC East, hence the Tom Brady & Ryan Tannehill references above. Got to get to know our rivals early ya know.

Not enough "awes" in awesome for this plan.

That said, ANYone with at least one semester of accounting would rather be K State than any of the top 20 FCS teams. Combined.

That oughta tell you sumpin.....

Round that out with a few semesters in Logic, Geography, and Creative Writing and it indeed does.

 

[Bluenoser]

The more I think about it the better it gets. I've got our theme song!


Ya can't throw an out pattern when warming up in a buffalo herd
Ya can't throw an out pattern when warming up in a buffalo herd
Ya can't throw an out pattern when warming up in a buffalo herd
Even if'n y'all are Tom Brady
But you can be sack happy if you've a mind to!