-
Hi Guest, want to participate in the discussions, keep track of read/unread posts access private forums and more? Create your free account and increase the benefits of your eGriz.com experience today!
UM's APR dropping
- Thread starter Cats2506
- Start date
tnt said:
Are the increased admissions standards in effect yet? It was my impression that they were not yet in place. It's my understanding that MSU decided not to increase their standards. Thus, when effective, MSU will have some recruiting advantage in this regard.
I don't agree with your statement about UM being in danger regarding the increased ncaa APR standard. What's kept UM's 4-year APR down a bit for the past 4 years, is the very low score 4 years ago. That year will be out of the average next year, and UM's APR is like to jump considerably.
Using only the 3 other years, the APR would be 945 this year--compared to the actual 929. UM's last single-year APR was 948. If UM's next year's single-year is another 948 like it was this past year, UM's next 4-year APR will be 945 (or higher). That's higher than MSU's current 943. MSU may have a weak single-year score from 4 years ago too, and thus will presumably get a bump next year from losing that score.
Pin2Win, thanks for your analysis and numbers.
It wouldn't take much to skew that number pretty quickly. Something that is not likley with Mick around. All right, I'm going to do something I rarley do. No sarcasm, no chain pulling, no devils advocate stuff. Whether the admission standards are in place or not they should be. each school has had its own method of dealing with students coming in not prepared for college lacking either math or writing skills.PlayerRep said:
MSU had the simplest method. They simply flunked them out by having their basic math courses required for every major. The problem is their basic math courses required a mastery of at least 4 years of high school math. They keep the trend going throughout four years of college.
For U of M business majors, the most feared (and repeated) course is finance. The biggest reason is that its math intensive, requiring not only a good base of statistics but calculus as well. There are a lot formulas graphing etc. Walking into an exam, students are handed a formula sheet with every formula used up to that date, and allowed to use a business calculator that has the "math" built in. You simply need know which variables are necessary and plug them in. (if you don't have a basic understanding of the math you can't do it.
At MSU however, students can cram as much information as possible onto a 3 X 5 card. Thats it. NO business calculator. You have to do all the math and know all the formulas. In a recent experiment the two schools traded exams. The MSU students did well on the UM exam, but it wasn't quite so good the other way around. Its not that one school has a better business school that the other (UM is still better) its just that one eliminated students earlier than the other. Finance and IT at UM is often the end of a Business degree for many (2-3 years into college.
U of M's approach has been to teach high school classes to incoming students and have them as numbered courses so a student can make academic progress (and retain financial aid.) Those days are over. Budgets don't allow it. At one time these courses could be taught by graduate assistants, not any longer. accreditation standards require an ever increasing number of courses be taught by full time tenure track faculty (it is even limiting the number of classes taught by adjuncts.) Simply put the U of M can't afford to pay college professors to teach High school classes.
U of M also has another eliminator. Most Departments grade on the curve and structure exams over time from statistical analysis to make it less apparent. (there is a reason most exams are scantron and it isn't to speed up grading)This isn't the curve we had, that could make a bad performance good. This is a tough school at the upper division level and has no guilt in flunking out a senior.
The approaches have been mirrored in the schools APR rates. MSU has struggled, we have not. UM has been successful in turning high school level students/athletes into college students, MSU hasn't bothered. In the future budgets wion't allow prep work, thats why the emphasis has been put on the 2 year schools and 4 year colleges, At some point these schools can have students prepared to transfer to University.
So PR what I'm saying is increasing standards at not only the NCAA level, but at the Univesity level WILL present some very significant challenges in the future.
You and I were Honors college students at fairly presitigous Universities, where the dumbass sitting next to us was a High School valedictorian, so it may be hard to understand that there are a lot of kids coming in to a University such as ours, that simply aren't prepared. No longer can the Universities prepare them and call it academic progress. If they can't hit the ground running, they are done.
TNT,
I agree that higher admissions standards for UM will create some issues for UM athletics, and with MSU not increasing standards, UM will lose some recruits to MSU. I don't know enough about the increased standards to have a view on them.
I don't think you stated when the new UM stadards come into effect. I don't believe that has occurred yet, but don't know.
I don't think the higher ncaa APR requirement will create problems for UM. For the most part, UM has operated above the new level. While I don't know, my guess is that UM's very low APR year four or five years ago was impacted by the players who left school as a result of the house burglary and/or fight involving the 3 frosh.
I believe in strong education, and believe the academic side of the school is much more important than the athletic side. However, I also believe that athletics is very important to education and should be an important part of at least most universities. My view is similar to Plato's view that a sound body is important to a sound mind and education.
I have long had the view, unrealistic as it may be, that regular athletic scholarships should be eliminated for all schools at all levels, and replaced with need-based scholarships. While this will not occur for many reasons, workable implementation of it would also be impacted by the DOJ antitrust case brought against various schools well over two decades ago.
I agree that higher admissions standards for UM will create some issues for UM athletics, and with MSU not increasing standards, UM will lose some recruits to MSU. I don't know enough about the increased standards to have a view on them.
I don't think you stated when the new UM stadards come into effect. I don't believe that has occurred yet, but don't know.
I don't think the higher ncaa APR requirement will create problems for UM. For the most part, UM has operated above the new level. While I don't know, my guess is that UM's very low APR year four or five years ago was impacted by the players who left school as a result of the house burglary and/or fight involving the 3 frosh.
I believe in strong education, and believe the academic side of the school is much more important than the athletic side. However, I also believe that athletics is very important to education and should be an important part of at least most universities. My view is similar to Plato's view that a sound body is important to a sound mind and education.
I have long had the view, unrealistic as it may be, that regular athletic scholarships should be eliminated for all schools at all levels, and replaced with need-based scholarships. While this will not occur for many reasons, workable implementation of it would also be impacted by the DOJ antitrust case brought against various schools well over two decades ago.
Really good analysis tnt
I think additionally, more specific to athletics and football, schools have learned better how to meet APR requirements. Prior to APR the NCAA used graduation rates. If a kid left the program they probably were not going to graduate, coaches let them go and never thought twice. Now if a kid leaves the program they do whatever they can to keep him in school at least one more quarter to get that extra APR point. Coaches like Kramer had learned under the graduation rate system and did not change their methods for the APR system. Many schools had this problem and they have learned how to work within this new system. I would predict that even though the APR baseline is being raised from 900 to 930, we will see fewer schools have trouble in the future, just because they have better learned how to meet the APR requirements.
All schools and teams will still have kids that leave the program and APR is not an indicator of academic standards. Some kids only want to play their sport and only go to classes because it is required, some kids use athletics as a vehicle to get a college degree, its just a fact of life.
I think additionally, more specific to athletics and football, schools have learned better how to meet APR requirements. Prior to APR the NCAA used graduation rates. If a kid left the program they probably were not going to graduate, coaches let them go and never thought twice. Now if a kid leaves the program they do whatever they can to keep him in school at least one more quarter to get that extra APR point. Coaches like Kramer had learned under the graduation rate system and did not change their methods for the APR system. Many schools had this problem and they have learned how to work within this new system. I would predict that even though the APR baseline is being raised from 900 to 930, we will see fewer schools have trouble in the future, just because they have better learned how to meet the APR requirements.
All schools and teams will still have kids that leave the program and APR is not an indicator of academic standards. Some kids only want to play their sport and only go to classes because it is required, some kids use athletics as a vehicle to get a college degree, its just a fact of life.
Actually PR the "New Standards" are more or less in play this fall. The "Rigorous Preparation" (18 high school credits) will substitute for math proficiency tests.
When the rolling enrollment ends (which probably won't happen until the economy stabilizes) The U of M will be requiring the Rigorous Preparation standards of all students, while MSU will still allow Math proficiency to substitute for writing skills (Que up engineer jokes)
Both schools will be allowed up to 15% of admissions to fall below the standards (a mistake IMO) but I'm guessing that is more a concession to our more rural schools. There are accommodations for distance learning from the University system for some of those requirements, but we still have a lack of Broadband in this state where we need it for those kids.
One other thing that has had a huge effect is several years ago the legislature allocated 1.5 million for Uniform Course numbering.. Now Math 160 at the U of M is the Same as Math 160 in most any university in the country (that subscribes) No more can we hide "bonehead" courses under the course number.
When the rolling enrollment ends (which probably won't happen until the economy stabilizes) The U of M will be requiring the Rigorous Preparation standards of all students, while MSU will still allow Math proficiency to substitute for writing skills (Que up engineer jokes)
Both schools will be allowed up to 15% of admissions to fall below the standards (a mistake IMO) but I'm guessing that is more a concession to our more rural schools. There are accommodations for distance learning from the University system for some of those requirements, but we still have a lack of Broadband in this state where we need it for those kids.
One other thing that has had a huge effect is several years ago the legislature allocated 1.5 million for Uniform Course numbering.. Now Math 160 at the U of M is the Same as Math 160 in most any university in the country (that subscribes) No more can we hide "bonehead" courses under the course number.
tnt said:
Thanks. Won't the several lower level athletic recruits each year just be admitted under the 15% basket?
UM has become a great and popular place to educate Native Americans. I hope the new standards don't negatively impact that. Many reservation Native Americans have a distinct disadvantage that impacts their educational background before they enter college, but that doesn't mean they are not smart and won't thrive at UM.
