Title IX at Montana State and Montana?

[Hammersmith]

I know nothing about College hockey finances. It seems like the kind of sport that could actually make money on the men’s side. Is that true?

It could.... It all depends on who owns the rink you are playing in. UND didn't own their rink, so they payed a lot to play there (from what i know, could be wrong). If the school owns it, and you can put it to other uses with that money going to the team, you could succeed.

It may have changed, but at one point UND paid $1 per year to use the Ralph Engelstadt center; which, I'm told, rivals some NHL arenas.

No, that's not the situation at all. In fact, that sounds more like the old NDSU/Fargodome arrangement than the UND/REA arrangement.

The UND/REA deal has been in the local news quite a bit over the last year or so, so we know a lot about it. The REA handles all the ticket sales for UND hockey, FB, MBB, WBB & VB. The REA takes either 48% or 52% of all ticket revenue(can't recall which direction the split goes), bills UND for a bunch of other stuff, then cuts UND a check at the end of the year for anything left over. Unsurprisingly, there's never all that much left over compared to what went in.

For example, in 2017 the REA took $2.4M worth of ticket revenue, billed UND $247k more for handling ticket sales, and then billed UND another $1.1M for utilities, maintenance, staff, etc. At the end of the year, the REA paid UND back $750k. And that was a bigger payback than normal; usually it's between $250k and $500k.

So not all that good a deal. The UND president asked the REA to renegotiate the deal last year due to a big cut in state appropriations and all hell broke loose. Ralph Engelstead's daughter made it her goal to get rid of UND's president by withholding all future donations from the REA trust and going to the media regularly with everything she said he was doing wrong. It was an ugly several months.

 

[Hammersmith]

I know nothing about College hockey finances. It seems like the kind of sport that could actually make money on the men’s side. Is that true?

Very tough. It's an expensive sport to operate. Not much worse than MBB for scholarships, but so much more for equipment, facilities, recruiting, travel, etc.

It's true that some schools make money off it, but you need to look a little deeper. First, we need to exclude the big P5 hockey schools like Wisconsin or Minnesota. They're a completely different animal compared to schools like Montana, UND, or FCS in general. Among schools our size, the ones that make money in hockey tend to have one thing in common: hockey is their primary sport.

I assume Montana has an athletic booster organization that handles the seat fees for Griz football? And I bet it's those seat fees that make Griz football profitable. Well, at schools like UND, those seat fees are attached to hockey instead. And schools our size don't have the fanbase to support two major sports at the same level. If Montana were to add hockey, it's not like you could add another huge seat fee. UND football is nowhere near profitable because of this reason. Football seat fees there are negligible, and most come already bundled with the hockey seat fee.

All of this is a big reason why many of us NDSU fans are opposed to adding hockey. To be profitable at both, you need almost two complete fanbases. And you just don't have that at the FCS level.

 

[Hammersmith]

https://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/sports/2019/06/17/idaho-universities-fall-short-title-ix-standards/1482831001/

Interesting article in the Great Falls tribune today about the Idaho public colleges falling short on issues of Title IX in their athletic departments. They regularly have audits done to see where they are at and where they need to invest resources. One school is going to add women's soccer. Boise State plans to add Baseball but will need to significantly invest in women's sports soon.

Last big post (and the reason I actually entered this thread in the first place)

I'm just going to quickly say that the author of the article doesn't completely understand Title IX compliance.

There are three components of Title IX compliance:
1. Equal Participation
2. Equal Financial Assistance
3. Equal Treatment

Working back to front, Equal Treatment means not giving MBB a full allotment of coaches, but WBB only gets two. Or MBB gets all the best practice times, while WBB gets 6:30AM and 9:00PM. Or MBB gets new uniforms and equipment every year, while WBB gets uniforms every decade and uses MBB hand-me-down equipment. As for Equal Financial Assistance, that's pretty obvious. Just remember that these calculations are based on full-time, undergrad enrollment only.

It's Equal Participation where most of the misunderstandings come from. This component is broken down into a three-prong test. A school must only satisfy ONE of the prongs, NOT all three.

1. Proportionality
2. Continuing Improvement
3. Interests and Abilities

First off, Continuing Improvement is mostly obsolete. I think it was mostly meant as an interim patch while schools that were way, way out of compliance were trying to fix things and couldn't do it overnight. I think some schools have tried to use it as a defense in the last few decades, but, to my understanding, the arbitrators/judges have smacked them down pretty hard when they've tried.

Next we'll look at Proportionality. This is what most people think of when they think of Title IX, but it's not the prong most schools use. And this is where the article author made mistakes. Just because participation is not proportional, does not automatically mean a school is out of compliance because...

Interests and Abilities. This is the participation prong most schools actually use. Schools that use this prong are supposed to take regular surveys of their student bodies(among other things) to see what sports their students are interested in and could legitimately compete in. Exactly how strict this prong is judged depends on who the president is at the time. Clinton's DoE added requirements about the survey; GWB reduced it almost to nothing; Obama strengthened it well beyond what Clinton did; I don't think Trump's DoE has altered it yet, but I could be wrong. It's definitely a moving target, but most schools still use it.

 

[grizband]

I know nothing about College hockey finances. It seems like the kind of sport that could actually make money on the men’s side. Is that true?

It could.... It all depends on who owns the rink you are playing in. UND didn't own their rink, so they payed a lot to play there (from what i know, could be wrong). If the school owns it, and you can put it to other uses with that money going to the team, you could succeed.

It may have changed, but at one point UND paid $1 per year to use the Ralph Engelstadt center; which, I'm told, rivals some NHL arenas.

No, that's not the situation at all. In fact, that sounds more like the old NDSU/Fargodome arrangement than the UND/REA arrangement.

The UND/REA deal has been in the local news quite a bit over the last year or so, so we know a lot about it. The REA handles all the ticket sales for UND hockey, FB, MBB, WBB & VB. The REA takes either 48% or 52% of all ticket revenue(can't recall which direction the split goes), bills UND for a bunch of other stuff, then cuts UND a check at the end of the year for anything left over. Unsurprisingly, there's never all that much left over compared to what went in.

For example, in 2017 the REA took $2.4M worth of ticket revenue, billed UND $247k more for handling ticket sales, and then billed UND another $1.1M for utilities, maintenance, staff, etc. At the end of the year, the REA paid UND back $750k. And that was a bigger payback than normal; usually it's between $250k and $500k.

So not all that good a deal. The UND president asked the REA to renegotiate the deal last year due to a big cut in state appropriations and all hell broke loose. Ralph Engelstead's daughter made it her goal to get rid of UND's president by withholding all future donations from the REA trust and going to the media regularly with everything she said he was doing wrong. It was an ugly several months.

It may no longer be the case, but the rent was only $1 for UND when the arena opened in 2001 (and still was when I heard about the deal in 2005 or 2006). Check out page 18/87 in these documents about the original agreement (Section 3.1 covers Rent).

https://www.legis.nd.gov/files/resource/57-2001/library/sb2322.pdf

 

[SoldierGriz]

https://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/sports/2019/06/17/idaho-universities-fall-short-title-ix-standards/1482831001/

Interesting article in the Great Falls tribune today about the Idaho public colleges falling short on issues of Title IX in their athletic departments. They regularly have audits done to see where they are at and where they need to invest resources. One school is going to add women's soccer. Boise State plans to add Baseball but will need to significantly invest in women's sports soon.

Last big post (and the reason I actually entered this thread in the first place)

I'm just going to quickly say that the author of the article doesn't completely understand Title IX compliance.

There are three components of Title IX compliance:
1. Equal Participation
2. Equal Financial Assistance
3. Equal Treatment

Working back to front, Equal Treatment means not giving MBB a full allotment of coaches, but WBB only gets two. Or MBB gets all the best practice times, while WBB gets 6:30AM and 9:00PM. Or MBB gets new uniforms and equipment every year, while WBB gets uniforms every decade and uses MBB hand-me-down equipment. As for Equal Financial Assistance, that's pretty obvious. Just remember that these calculations are based on full-time, undergrad enrollment only.

It's Equal Participation where most of the misunderstandings come from. This component is broken down into a three-prong test. A school must only satisfy ONE of the prongs, NOT all three.

1. Proportionality
2. Continuing Improvement
3. Interests and Abilities

First off, Continuing Improvement is mostly obsolete. I think it was mostly meant as an interim patch while schools that were way, way out of compliance were trying to fix things and couldn't do it overnight. I think some schools have tried to use it as a defense in the last few decades, but, to my understanding, the arbitrators/judges have smacked them down pretty hard when they've tried.

Next we'll look at Proportionality. This is what most people think of when they think of Title IX, but it's not the prong most schools use. And this is where the article author made mistakes. Just because participation is not proportional, does not automatically mean a school is out of compliance because...

Interests and Abilities. This is the participation prong most schools actually use. Schools that use this prong are supposed to take regular surveys of their student bodies(among other things) to see what sports their students are interested in and could legitimately compete in. Exactly how strict this prong is judged depends on who the president is at the time. Clinton's DoE added requirements about the survey; GWB reduced it almost to nothing; Obama strengthened it well beyond what Clinton did; I don't think Trump's DoE has altered it yet, but I could be wrong. It's definitely a moving target, but most schools still use it.

This is a great post. Thanks!

 

[kemajic]

Would love to see mens and womens hockey added, tho I know its a fat chance because its so expensive. Ive always been curious as to why hockey just seems to stop at North Dakota. It seems like such a logical sport to be huge in Montana like ND but it never did.

Does anyone know why?

It starts at a very early age in those areas... Every town has an indoor Ice skating rink, and the towns best athletes all start out very young playing that sport. Bozeman is building a really good youth program, and has at least one former NHL player that will be coaching youth hockey next year. I interviewed Dane Fletcher last week, and he mentioned that he was going to play college hockey out of High School (I believe he had an offer from Michigan State as a Junior), but he burnt out on it, and focused on High School Football his senior year instead... You would have to get a LOT of out of state kids to play on Full scholarships the first 5-10 years. Very expensive

Hockey is big in Missoula: there is an active youth hockey association; and the adult rec league at the Glacier Ice Rink is very popular. Also, Missoula has had a junior hockey team for several years, and has a fairly nice rink for the current teams. I think college hockey has the potential to do very well in Missoula.

So there you go; a great sport for the University of Missoula. The University of Montana, not so much.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

I know nothing about College hockey finances. It seems like the kind of sport that could actually make money on the men’s side. Is that true?

Very tough. It's an expensive sport to operate. Not much worse than MBB for scholarships, but so much more for equipment, facilities, recruiting, travel, etc.

It's true that some schools make money off it, but you need to look a little deeper. First, we need to exclude the big P5 hockey schools like Wisconsin or Minnesota. They're a completely different animal compared to schools like Montana, UND, or FCS in general. Among schools our size, the ones that make money in hockey tend to have one thing in common: hockey is their primary sport.

I assume Montana has an athletic booster organization that handles the seat fees for Griz football? And I bet it's those seat fees that make Griz football profitable. Well, at schools like UND, those seat fees are attached to hockey instead. And schools our size don't have the fanbase to support two major sports at the same level. If Montana were to add hockey, it's not like you could add another huge seat fee. UND football is nowhere near profitable because of this reason. Football seat fees there are negligible, and most come already bundled with the hockey seat fee.

All of this is a big reason why many of us NDSU fans are opposed to adding hockey. To be profitable at both, you need almost two complete fanbases. And you just don't have that at the FCS level.

Makes sense, thx! I’m assuming seat fee means season ticket?

 

[Hammersmith]

Makes sense, thx! I’m assuming seat fee means season ticket?

Not exactly. You probably know the following, but just in case...

At UND hockey and NDSU football, the cost of season tickets is broken up into two parts: the ticket price and the seat fee. For example, NDSU FB season tickets for 2019 are $237/$307 per seat(endzone/sideline), while the seat fees range from $25/seat to $3000/seat depending on the location.* It's those seat fees that push Bison football from break-even to significantly profitable. NDSU is bringing in something like $5M through seat fees alone. UND does something very similar with hockey, but I'm not as well versed in it as I don't follow the sport.

I assume Montana does something similar as well because it was all about tax issues. By breaking the seat fee out separate from the ticket price and billing it through a non-profit fundraising arm of the school, it allowed donors to deduct 80% of it from their taxes. That exemption went away recently, but it's why the big booster organizations exist.


*https://gobison.com/documents/2019/2/6//Football_Season_Ticket_Seating_Chart_Prices_2019.pdf?id=14195

 

[Hammersmith]

It may no longer be the case, but the rent was only $1 for UND when the arena opened in 2001 (and still was when I heard about the deal in 2005 or 2006). Check out page 18/87 in these documents about the original agreement (Section 3.1 covers Rent).

https://www.legis.nd.gov/files/resource/57-2001/library/sb2322.pdf

Okay, my bad. The deal must have changed after the Betty(MBB/WBB/VB) was added on. In fact, now I remember that's the case. In order to sidestep legislative approval because they needed to hurry, they renegotiated the lease. Instead of UND paying for the Betty addition up front, the REA footed the bill for construction and the cut of the ticket revenue is effectively paying the REA trust back. Still, it's not a great deal as it's hamstrung many of the UND programs and it's splitting their fanbase into hockey-only fans and UND fans. For example, their football locker rooms date from the 20s or 30s and haven't been redone since the 60s or 70s, while the hockey locker rooms have been remodeled two or three times since the REA was built in 2001. It's a bone of contention with their football fans.


(The Betty was added onto the REA because the arena wanted to bid on the World Juniors(I think) and they needed additional floor space for the teams to put their stuff in and hang out between games in order to secure the bid. In order to get UND to pay for it, they designed it so that it would become UND's MBB/WBB/VB practice and competition facility after the Juniors were over. Because REA was fronting the money and time was tight, UND didn't get all that much say in the design process and the facility ended up smaller than it really should have been(~3300 seats). The REA said MBB or WBB could always use the main REA if they needed space for larger crowds, but that went from one game every other year to disappearing completely several years back.)

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

It starts at a very early age in those areas... Every town has an indoor Ice skating rink, and the towns best athletes all start out very young playing that sport. Bozeman is building a really good youth program, and has at least one former NHL player that will be coaching youth hockey next year. I interviewed Dane Fletcher last week, and he mentioned that he was going to play college hockey out of High School (I believe he had an offer from Michigan State as a Junior), but he burnt out on it, and focused on High School Football his senior year instead... You would have to get a LOT of out of state kids to play on Full scholarships the first 5-10 years. Very expensive

Hockey is big in Missoula: there is an active youth hockey association; and the adult rec league at the Glacier Ice Rink is very popular. Also, Missoula has had a junior hockey team for several years, and has a fairly nice rink for the current teams. I think college hockey has the potential to do very well in Missoula.

But how many kids are you going to get, at that level, to play for the Cats or griz... Hockey may be big in those areas, but it isn't in most of the rest of the state...

You could get one or 2 local kids each year to play, filling a roster with out of state talent. Using North Dakota as the answer, their 2018/19 team featured only one in-state player.

I know it would be difficult to start, my question is more so to the fact that it just kinda stopped at the ND Montana border and why that was. Population and people wise we are really similar states. Im just curious why the hockey craze stops at the border, and shifts more to basketball.

 

[grizband]

Hockey is big in Missoula: there is an active youth hockey association; and the adult rec league at the Glacier Ice Rink is very popular. Also, Missoula has had a junior hockey team for several years, and has a fairly nice rink for the current teams. I think college hockey has the potential to do very well in Missoula.

But how many kids are you going to get, at that level, to play for the Cats or griz... Hockey may be big in those areas, but it isn't in most of the rest of the state...

You could get one or 2 local kids each year to play, filling a roster with out of state talent. Using North Dakota as the answer, their 2018/19 team featured only one in-state player.

I know it would be difficult to start, my question is more so to the fact that it just kinda stopped at the ND Montana border and why that was. Population and people wise we are really similar states. Im just curious why the hockey craze stops at the border, and shifts more to basketball.

Honestly, I don't have an answer; however, hockey has increased in popularity in the 20 years since I was in high school. It may simply be that North Dakota is closer proximity to states where hockey has been historically prevalent (Minnesota, Wisconsin), but again that doesn't answer the question of my interest stopped at the border.

 

[Grizzoola]

I understand the expense of a hockey program at UM. That said, I'm sure many Canadian players would like to play for UM. When UM had a mens swimming program when I was a student, one of my friends was a Canadian on the swimming team; so, it's not far-fetched for Canadians to want to play for UM. I say this, even tho' hockey is out of the question for UM.

 

[kemajic]

But how many kids are you going to get, at that level, to play for the Cats or griz... Hockey may be big in those areas, but it isn't in most of the rest of the state...

You could get one or 2 local kids each year to play, filling a roster with out of state talent. Using North Dakota as the answer, their 2018/19 team featured only one in-state player.

I know it would be difficult to start, my question is more so to the fact that it just kinda stopped at the ND Montana border and why that was. Population and people wise we are really similar states. Im just curious why the hockey craze stops at the border, and shifts more to basketball.

Honestly, I don't have an answer; however, hockey has increased in popularity in the 20 years since I was in high school. It may simply be that North Dakota is closer proximity to states where hockey has been historically prevalent (Minnesota, Wisconsin), but again that doesn't answer the question of my interest stopped at the border.

It may have stopped quite a bit east of the MT/ND border. I'm not aware of such hockey furor in western ND.

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

You could get one or 2 local kids each year to play, filling a roster with out of state talent. Using North Dakota as the answer, their 2018/19 team featured only one in-state player.

I know it would be difficult to start, my question is more so to the fact that it just kinda stopped at the ND Montana border and why that was. Population and people wise we are really similar states. Im just curious why the hockey craze stops at the border, and shifts more to basketball.

Honestly, I don't have an answer; however, hockey has increased in popularity in the 20 years since I was in high school. It may simply be that North Dakota is closer proximity to states where hockey has been historically prevalent (Minnesota, Wisconsin), but again that doesn't answer the question of my interest stopped at the border.

It may have stopped quite a bit east of the MT/ND border. I'm not aware of such hockey furor in western ND.

Hockey is huge in Williston, Dickinson and Watford City.

 

[MTCowpoke]

I know it would be difficult to start, my question is more so to the fact that it just kinda stopped at the ND Montana border and why that was. Population and people wise we are really similar states. Im just curious why the hockey craze stops at the border, and shifts more to basketball.

Honestly, I don't have an answer; however, hockey has increased in popularity in the 20 years since I was in high school. It may simply be that North Dakota is closer proximity to states where hockey has been historically prevalent (Minnesota, Wisconsin), but again that doesn't answer the question of my interest stopped at the border.

It may have stopped quite a bit east of the MT/ND border. I'm not aware of such hockey furor in western ND.

Hockey is huge in Williston, Dickinson and Watford City.

Watford just built an amazing community complex with an indoor rink for their youth hockey along with their brand new high school. The joys of oilfield revenue! And it doesn't completely stop at the border, but it's very hit or miss on this side of Montana. Youth Hockey is big in Glasgow, and has quite a decent following in Sidney and I think Glendive might have a team, but they tend to play in the ND leagues because its closer travel than Billings, Bozeman, Missoula, etc.

 

[kemajic]

I know it would be difficult to start, my question is more so to the fact that it just kinda stopped at the ND Montana border and why that was. Population and people wise we are really similar states. Im just curious why the hockey craze stops at the border, and shifts more to basketball.

Honestly, I don't have an answer; however, hockey has increased in popularity in the 20 years since I was in high school. It may simply be that North Dakota is closer proximity to states where hockey has been historically prevalent (Minnesota, Wisconsin), but again that doesn't answer the question of my interest stopped at the border.

It may have stopped quite a bit east of the MT/ND border. I'm not aware of such hockey furor in western ND.

Hockey is huge in Williston, Dickinson and Watford City.

Huge? The Dickenson St. athletics website lists men's sports - baseball, basketball, cross country, football, golf, track & field and wrestling. Not a mention of hockey.

 

[UNDfan]

Colleges that have ACHA club teams in ND are:

ACHA DI

Minot St - won the national championship this year and in the past
U of Mary- Bismarck - just started hockey
UND - only had it a few years
NDSU - used to be good but has fallen off

There are rumors that Minot St and Mary will go NCAA DI in hockey only, as they are both DII schools and have the right to take hockey NCAA DI.
NDSU has rejected going DI in hockey because they know they would be a poor second rate team behind UND and the voters rejected a Fargo built arena on campus.

ACHA DII

Williston St ( a JC)
University of Jamestown
Dakota College of Bottineau ( a JC)

Montana State, University of Providence in Great Falls and Montana Tech also play at the same level, as does Weber St, EWU and many others

The midget level of hockey is much stronger in the border ND towns to Minnesota. Grand Forks has won the midget level of Minnesota several times recently as its youth programs have improved dramatically in the past 20 years. Several Grand Forks players have been drafted by the NHL before they start their college careers.

 

[garizzalies]

I would pay to see midget hockey. That sounds like a hoot. I don’t think title 9 applies; we should add it.
Years ago we had midget wrestling on a St. paddy’s Day in Butte. Mighta been the greatest day of my life.

 

[UNDfan]

UND just got more NHL draft picks:
https://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/2725005-Number-of-NHL-draft-picks-on-UNDs-roster-is-on-the-rise

The traditional names of youth hockey team classification have been changed:

http://mihockey.com/2016/06/usa-hockey-removes-usage-of-traditional-age-classification-names-pee-wee-bantam-etc/

 

[SaskGriz]

UND just got more NHL draft picks:
https://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/2725005-Number-of-NHL-draft-picks-on-UNDs-roster-is-on-the-rise

The traditional names of youth hockey team classification have been changed:

http://mihockey.com/2016/06/usa-hockey-removes-usage-of-traditional-age-classification-names-pee-wee-bantam-etc/

Good to see you've got a good Regina boy in Blaisdell!