"Thuggery" strikes Alabama football

[Silvertip]

Now the New York Times and the NCAA will have bigger fish to fry...

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/story/2013-02-12/alabama-players-arrested-armed-robbery-brent-calloway-eddie-williams-dj-pettway?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl8%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D269227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ilovethecats]

why the quotes around "thuggery"? this seems like a perfect example of idiot kids being thugs. not "thugs"...but ACTUAL p.o.s. thugs...

what am i missing?

 

[EverettGriz]

I think the point being made is that while these select individuals may indeed be "thugs", to suggest the entire Alabama program is thugs based on their actions is transitive reasoning run amok. Ergo, Mr. Williams used poor logic.

 

[ilovethecats]

I think the point being made is that while these select individuals may indeed be "thugs", to suggest the entire Alabama program is thugs based on their actions is transitive reasoning run amok. Ergo, Mr. Williams used poor logic.

i admit i didn't read all the williams stuff because frankly i don't care but did he call the entire griz football program thugs? that would be stupid. i thought he said griz football was making it a habit of recruiting too many thugs? i admit i'm ill-informed...

but in regards to 'bama football i'd say the same thing. they ARE recruiting too many thugs and this is more evidence of that. but they're winning so....

i wouldn't say 'bama is nothing but a team of thugs because that would be untrue. but there is no denying the fact that they are bringing in guys that are making their program look like a bunch of criminals.

 

[EverettGriz]

but did he call the entire griz football program thugs

Essentially, yes.

 

[Grisly Fan]

To me the crux of the issue is the difference between:

1) Recruiting thugs, i.e. purposefully finding players who have and that you might hope will continue to exhibit thuggish behavior, e.g. the "hockey enforcer" archetype.
2) Recruiting young men who turn out to be thugs.
3) Recruiting young men who on at least one occasion exhibit thuggish behavior but are not thugs, i.e. the difference between getting drunk occasionally and being an alcoholic.

I think there is a real difference between the three and how you react to situation 1 is different than 2 which is different than 3. I think the U of M is certainly guilty of #3 and and maybe even in a few cases of #2 but PW's statement could easily be interpreted as #1.

I realize that there will be several here who can't or won't apply this fine of grain to understanding the problem and I could probably list them all off the top my head. Instead I'll just say that I really think you have to have a careful and precise understanding if you want to actually come up with a workable solution that doesn't cause excessive collateral damage to a program that is extremely valuable to the university and the community. PW's pronouncement is more like "taking a flamethrower to the place."

 

[indian-outlaw]

Why did they suspend them already? Doesn't it have to play out in court first?

 

[funny water]

To me the crux of the issue is the difference between:

1) Recruiting thugs, i.e. purposefully finding players who have and that you might hope will continue to exhibit thuggish behavior, e.g. the "hockey enforcer" archetype.
2) Recruiting young men who turn out to be thugs.
3) Recruiting young men who on at least one occasion exhibit thuggish behavior but are not thugs, i.e. the difference between getting drunk occasionally and being an alcoholic.

I think there is a real difference between the three and how you react to situation 1 is different than 2 which is different than 3. I think the U of M is certainly guilty of #3 and and maybe even in a few cases of #2 but PW's statement could easily be interpreted as #1.

I realize that there will be several here who can't or won't apply this fine of grain to understanding the problem and I could probably list them all off the top my head. Instead I'll just say that I really think you have to have a careful and precise understanding if you want to actually come up with a workable solution that doesn't cause excessive collateral damage to a program that is extremely valuable to the university and the community. PW's pronouncement is more like "taking a flamethrower to the place."

:thumb: excellent assessment.

 

[Silvertip]

why the quotes around "thuggery"? this seems like a perfect example of idiot kids being thugs. not "thugs"...but ACTUAL p.o.s. thugs...

what am i missing?

The not so subtle irony of the thuggery-fixated PW seems to have passed you by...am waiting for his qualitative comparison of the UM and Alabama transgressions to show up in the NYT... now, don't ask again. :roll:

 

[granitegriz]

Great points Grisly Fan!

 

[rgrizfan]

Why did they suspend them already? Doesn't it have to play out in court first?

As stated so many times...it is pretty easy to suspend a player during the off season...nothing has been said about being kicked off the team at this point.

 

[ilovethecats]

why the quotes around "thuggery"? this seems like a perfect example of idiot kids being thugs. not "thugs"...but ACTUAL p.o.s. thugs...

what am i missing?

The not so subtle irony of the thuggery-fixated PW seems to have passed you by...am waiting for his qualitative comparison of the UM and Alabama transgressions to show up in the NYT... now, don't ask again. :roll:

:thumb:

this board is better this week than i think it has ever been. you guys are just rolling. kudos to everyone involved for the constant entertainment. :clap:

 

[Spanky]

What exactly is a thug?

 

[Cats2506]

What exactly is a thug?

 

[MrTitleist]

Cats2506 is begging for another timeout, I see..

 

[1bigGRIZ]

PaaaaRRROOOOLLLLLLLLLL TIDE!!!!!!!!!!

 

[grizbrokebacker1]

but did he call the entire griz football program thugs

Essentially, yes.

No he did not. While I believe that Williams words could've been more wisely chosen, he did NOT call the entire team thugs. Williams quote was simply "The university has recruited thugs for its football team, and this thuggery has got to stop.”.

He didn't say "the entire team", or even "every player". He used the words "has recruited thugs". I interpret that as meaning more than one, but not implying an entire team. MSU recruited a few thugs a decade ago.

This whole petition, censure, etc. movement is hysterically funny. I'll admit if he'd said this about the Cats 10 years ago, I would've initially had a knee jerk reaction too. But after a day or so to think about it, I would've understood the true context of what he actually said. Williams didn't say anything that wasn't true and obviously the truth hurts. I do think he would do well to man up and apologize for wording things the way he did and trying to clarify his statements, but I'm sure the BOR instructed him to lie low until after the trial is over.

 

[Grisly Fan]

but did he call the entire griz football program thugs

Essentially, yes.

No he did not. While I believe that Williams words could've been more wisely chosen, he did NOT call the entire team thugs. Williams quote was simply "The university has recruited thugs for its football team, and this thuggery has got to stop.”.

He didn't say "the entire team", or even "every player". He used the words "has recruited thugs". I interpret that as meaning more than one, but not implying an entire team. MSU recruited a few thugs a decade ago.

This whole petition, censure, etc. movement is hysterically funny. I'll admit if he'd said this about the Cats 10 years ago, I would've initially had a knee jerk reaction too. But after a day or so to think about it, I would've understood the true context of what he actually said. Williams didn't say anything that wasn't true and obviously the truth hurts. I do think he would do well to man up and apologize for wording things the way he did and trying to clarify his statements, but I'm sure the BOR instructed him to lie low until after the trial is over.

I think it is amusing that you seem willing to give PW a pass. One thing lone ranger loose cannon types repeatedly have shown their popensity to repeatedly misfire in any random direction. To ratify his appointment is to say that this behavior is OK. Other regents should then feel empowered to run to the national press with their pet peeves and personal vendettas. Just wait until one of those is directed at MSU. It won't seem all the harmless of a precedent then, will it?

 

[grizbrokebacker1]

I think it is amusing that you seem willing to give PW a pass. One thing lone ranger loose cannon types repeatedly have shown their popensity to repeatedly misfire in any random direction. To ratify his appointment is to say that this behavior is OK. Other regents should then feel empowered to run to the national press with their pet peeves and personal vendettas. Just wait until one of those is directed at MSU. It won't seem all the harmless of a precedent then, will it?

I think it's amusing that we (collectively), as sports fans of any program, are willing to give a kid a second chance for doing something stupid (DUI, fights, theft, or other criminal mischief) (loose cannons?), yet most of those same fans want to crucify Pat Williams for making one stupid (but truthfully hurtful) statement.

 

[Grisly Fan]

I think it is amusing that you seem willing to give PW a pass. One thing lone ranger loose cannon types repeatedly have shown their popensity to repeatedly misfire in any random direction. To ratify his appointment is to say that this behavior is OK. Other regents should then feel empowered to run to the national press with their pet peeves and personal vendettas. Just wait until one of those is directed at MSU. It won't seem all the harmless of a precedent then, will it?

I think it's amusing that we (collectively), as sports fans of any program, are willing to give a kid a second chance for doing something stupid (DUI, fights, theft, or other criminal mischief) (loose cannons?), yet most of those same fans want to crucify Pat Williams for making one stupid (but truthfully hurtful) statement.

Perhaps the difference between being 19 versus 76?