QB transfer?

[Lord Vigo]

Right, that's true. Thus, the #1 complaint about Choate was that he couldn't get the QB position settled. I would say that that criticism was entirely valid, just as I think the handling of the QB position is a valid criticism of Hauck.

I guess that's fair, but I honestly think the only season the QB position was really bungled was not bringing in someone two years ago. Humphrey was by far the worst starter we've had since Bobby came back. I know we tried to get a backup for Johnson that could carry the torch last year, but all of the guys we went after went somewhere else, and Britt and Brown just didn't work out.

I don't think the revolving door of transfers is necessarily a bad thing, lots of top programs have shown it can and does work very well. They do need to do a better job of getting depth, if that's the way they want to go, though.

Yeah, it can work. I don't think it's a totally bankrupt approach.

But my point is that if that's your approach, then failing to land that transfer backup and/or failing to have a reasonably skilled recruit developing are indeed failures that the staff are culpable for. It's not just bum luck or misfortune.

Take it outside of the Griz for a minute. If the Cats continue building their entire offense around mobile QB's, that means they're always going to need more than one guy who can pull off that style of offense. If, in a couple years, they have failed to land those guys and the starter gets hurt and the offense falls apart, that's ineptitude moreso than bad luck.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

I get what you're saying, but the cats have had 5 starters in that same time period (Andersen, Rovig, Bauman, McKay, Mellott), so this idea that we're some crazy outlier seems weird.

Right, that's true. Thus, the #1 complaint about Choate was that he couldn't get the QB position settled. I would say that that criticism was entirely valid, just as I think the handling of the QB position is a valid criticism of Hauck.

Perhaps, but we both know Choach would still be the beloved leader followed blindly in Bozeman today if he didn't bail at the soonest opportunity.

 

[Lord Vigo]

Right, that's true. Thus, the #1 complaint about Choate was that he couldn't get the QB position settled. I would say that that criticism was entirely valid, just as I think the handling of the QB position is a valid criticism of Hauck.

Perhaps, but we both know Choach would still be the beloved leader followed blindly in Bozeman today if he didn't bail at the soonest opportunity.

Certainly. Because despite everything, the team was making progress every season. But nevertheless, there were valid criticisms of him. The QB situation and the moobs.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I think one major reason why Griz fans are so strongly divided on the issue of Hauck and whether he's been a success in stint #2 is that both sides have real substance on their side of the argument.

Hauck is a really good coach at the FCS level. He knows very well what he's doing. And he has had success since returning. 34-17 and three playoff appearances in four years-- that's not great success by the standard of what UM or MSU fans should expect, but it isn't failure. Defenders can also point to real excuses for the 2022 season: a really tough road slate that coincided with an injury to your only good quarterback.

But on the other hand, critics aren't being unreasonable when they point out problems, such as:

-Perpetual band-aids at QB and no feasible backup plan
-Failure to recreate dominance along the LOS like his teams used to future in stint #1
-Mishandling the lockerroom in regards to coaching his kid

So people inclined to want to love and believe in Bobby have something real to point to. People inclined dislike him have something just as real to point to. And the reality is in the middle.

Spot on. There's been a lot of embellishment on both sides of this argument. I've been called a koolaid drinker who's ok with mediocrity because I've pointed out that people are going a little overboard on their criticisms on things that don't necessarily warrant it, despite being very clear that there are plenty of valid criticisms, and that I wouldn't be sad to see him go if our season next year isn't better than this one was.

We could definitely do a lot worse than Bobby Hauck, but the shine is definitely starting to come off.

The difference is this: At UM, 34-17 in 5 years isn’t a “success”. Measuring success in # of wins and playoff appearances is Sac State/EWU/UCDavis type stuff. At UNC they’d put up a fucking statue of the coach. At NAU they’d give him the keys to the city. At Cal Poly they’d probably elect him mayor.

And honestly, it’s not so much his overall record for me as it is the TREND he’s on. For YEARS we measured success by BSC championships, auto bids, victories over the Scats and deep playoff runs. Between 1995 and 2009 there wasn’t a SINGLE player who played for the Griz that didn’t go to at least one NC during their time with the team. Fourteen straight years where ever single player got to experience the NC atmosphere. Since then, there hasn’t been a single player who’s played for the Griz that HAS been to one (with the Griz). Thirteen straight years where the script has been completely flipped.

And it appears from comments you read from people on this board that either a) they NEVER had expectations of excellence or b) their expectations have been lowered by 13 years of failure to meet them.

If 8-9 wins a season and the quarterfinals are your bar for “success”, then IMHO you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution. And by “you” I mean the collective you, not any particular poster on this board.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Spot on. There's been a lot of embellishment on both sides of this argument. I've been called a koolaid drinker who's ok with mediocrity because I've pointed out that people are going a little overboard on their criticisms on things that don't necessarily warrant it, despite being very clear that there are plenty of valid criticisms, and that I wouldn't be sad to see him go if our season next year isn't better than this one was.

We could definitely do a lot worse than Bobby Hauck, but the shine is definitely starting to come off.

The difference is this: At UM, 34-17 in 5 years isn’t a “success”. Measuring success in # of wins and playoff appearances is Sac State/EWU/UCDavis type stuff. At UNC they’d put up a fucking statue of the coach. At NAU they’d give him the keys to the city. At Cal Poly they’d probably elect him mayor.

And honestly, it’s not so much his overall record for me as it is the TREND he’s on. For YEARS we measured success by BSC championships, auto bids, victories over the Scats and deep playoff runs. Between 1995 and 2009 there wasn’t a SINGLE player who played for the Griz that didn’t go to at least one NC during their time with the team. Fourteen straight years where ever single player got to experience the NC atmosphere. Since then, there hasn’t been a single player who’s played for the Griz that HAS been to one (with the Griz). Thirteen straight years where the script has been completely flipped.

And it appears from comments you read from people on this board that either a) they NEVER had expectations of excellence or b) their expectations have been lowered by 13 years of failure to meet them.

If 8-9 wins a season and the quarterfinals are your bar for “success”, then IMHO you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution. And by “you” I mean the collective you, not any particular poster on this board.

That would be very impressive if true. I have my doubts. Wouldn't there be many Griz players during that timeframe who didn't experience a NC game?

 

[AZGrizFan]

The difference is this: At UM, 34-17 in 5 years isn’t a “success”. Measuring success in # of wins and playoff appearances is Sac State/EWU/UCDavis type stuff. At UNC they’d put up a fucking statue of the coach. At NAU they’d give him the keys to the city. At Cal Poly they’d probably elect him mayor.

And honestly, it’s not so much his overall record for me as it is the TREND he’s on. For YEARS we measured success by BSC championships, auto bids, victories over the Scats and deep playoff runs. Between 1995 and 2009 there wasn’t a SINGLE player who played for the Griz that didn’t go to at least one NC during their time with the team. Fourteen straight years where ever single player got to experience the NC atmosphere. Since then, there hasn’t been a single player who’s played for the Griz that HAS been to one (with the Griz). Thirteen straight years where the script has been completely flipped.

And it appears from comments you read from people on this board that either a) they NEVER had expectations of excellence or b) their expectations have been lowered by 13 years of failure to meet them.

If 8-9 wins a season and the quarterfinals are your bar for “success”, then IMHO you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution. And by “you” I mean the collective you, not any particular poster on this board.

That would be very impressive if true. I have my doubts. Wouldn't there be many Griz players during that timeframe who didn't experience a NC game?

If they were on the team for 4 years, they experienced an NC. 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2004, 2008, 2009.

And in fact, between 1998 and 2009 no Griz football player knew what it was like to NOT win the conference title.

conference titles
Victories over the ‘Scats
Deep Playoff runs
National Championship appearances

THESE used to be the expectations of this program and this fan base. Seriously, it’s sad how far Hauck has let it fall.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Spot on. There's been a lot of embellishment on both sides of this argument. I've been called a koolaid drinker who's ok with mediocrity because I've pointed out that people are going a little overboard on their criticisms on things that don't necessarily warrant it, despite being very clear that there are plenty of valid criticisms, and that I wouldn't be sad to see him go if our season next year isn't better than this one was.

We could definitely do a lot worse than Bobby Hauck, but the shine is definitely starting to come off.

The difference is this: At UM, 34-17 in 5 years isn’t a “success”. Measuring success in # of wins and playoff appearances is Sac State/EWU/UCDavis type stuff. At UNC they’d put up a f###[#] statue of the coach. At NAU they’d give him the keys to the city. At Cal Poly they’d probably elect him mayor.

And honestly, it’s not so much his overall record for me as it is the TREND he’s on. For YEARS we measured success by BSC championships, auto bids, victories over the Scats and deep playoff runs. Between 1995 and 2009 there wasn’t a SINGLE player who played for the Griz that didn’t go to at least one NC during their time with the team. Fourteen straight years where ever single player got to experience the NC atmosphere. Since then, there hasn’t been a single player who’s played for the Griz that HAS been to one (with the Griz). Thirteen straight years where the script has been completely flipped.

And it appears from comments you read from people on this board that either a) they NEVER had expectations of excellence or b) their expectations have been lowered by 13 years of failure to meet them.

If 8-9 wins a season and the quarterfinals are your bar for “success”, then IMHO you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution. And by “you” I mean the collective you, not any particular poster on this board.

You refuse to recognize the differences between improvement and progress. When 1122 shows progress and improvement, including considerable progress, you try to ague he is talking about success, goals and dominance. Different things and things he wasn't arguing.

Bringing up conference rank over playoffs and playoff wins is the definition of football idiocy. That is the dummest thing I have ever seen on egriz.

 

[uofmman1122]

Spot on. There's been a lot of embellishment on both sides of this argument. I've been called a koolaid drinker who's ok with mediocrity because I've pointed out that people are going a little overboard on their criticisms on things that don't necessarily warrant it, despite being very clear that there are plenty of valid criticisms, and that I wouldn't be sad to see him go if our season next year isn't better than this one was.

We could definitely do a lot worse than Bobby Hauck, but the shine is definitely starting to come off.

The difference is this: At UM, 34-17 in 5 years isn’t a “success”. Measuring success in # of wins and playoff appearances is Sac State/EWU/UCDavis type stuff. At UNC they’d put up a f###[#] statue of the coach. At NAU they’d give him the keys to the city. At Cal Poly they’d probably elect him mayor.

And honestly, it’s not so much his overall record for me as it is the TREND he’s on. For YEARS we measured success by BSC championships, auto bids, victories over the Scats and deep playoff runs. Between 1995 and 2009 there wasn’t a SINGLE player who played for the Griz that didn’t go to at least one NC during their time with the team. Fourteen straight years where ever single player got to experience the NC atmosphere. Since then, there hasn’t been a single player who’s played for the Griz that HAS been to one (with the Griz). Thirteen straight years where the script has been completely flipped.

And it appears from comments you read from people on this board that either a) they NEVER had expectations of excellence or b) their expectations have been lowered by 13 years of failure to meet them.

If 8-9 wins a season and the quarterfinals are your bar for “success”, then IMHO you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution. And by “you” I mean the collective you, not any particular poster on this board.

We've been over this lol.

I want all of that as much as you do, but I'm also acknowledging that the landscape isn't the same as it was back then. Bobby never had a harder schedule than he did this season, and it's not particularly close. Several of those conference championship teams of the 2000's would've finished short of "expectations" if they had to play 4 top 15 teams on the road in a season. I've been critical of the way Hauck is running the program this time around. You're right, I don't think it's working if that is the expectation.

Expecting the same success because that's how it used to be is dumb, IMO. Hauck said that was the expectation, and he hasn't delivered, and that's 100% valid to rake him over the coals about, but fixating on the past doesn't really matter anymore.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

That would be very impressive if true. I have my doubts. Wouldn't there be many Griz players during that timeframe who didn't experience a NC game?

If they were on the team for 4 years, they experienced an NC. 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2004, 2008, 2009.

Ah, I thought you meant every player. I was sitting here wondering how I forgot that Jason Washington played in a NC game.

 

[AZGrizFan]

The difference is this: At UM, 34-17 in 5 years isn’t a “success”. Measuring success in # of wins and playoff appearances is Sac State/EWU/UCDavis type stuff. At UNC they’d put up a f###[#] statue of the coach. At NAU they’d give him the keys to the city. At Cal Poly they’d probably elect him mayor.

And honestly, it’s not so much his overall record for me as it is the TREND he’s on. For YEARS we measured success by BSC championships, auto bids, victories over the Scats and deep playoff runs. Between 1995 and 2009 there wasn’t a SINGLE player who played for the Griz that didn’t go to at least one NC during their time with the team. Fourteen straight years where ever single player got to experience the NC atmosphere. Since then, there hasn’t been a single player who’s played for the Griz that HAS been to one (with the Griz). Thirteen straight years where the script has been completely flipped.

And it appears from comments you read from people on this board that either a) they NEVER had expectations of excellence or b) their expectations have been lowered by 13 years of failure to meet them.

If 8-9 wins a season and the quarterfinals are your bar for “success”, then IMHO you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution. And by “you” I mean the collective you, not any particular poster on this board.

We've been over this lol.

I want all of that as much as you do, but I'm also acknowledging that the landscape isn't the same as it was back then. Bobby never had a harder schedule than he did this season, and it's not particularly close. Several of those conference championship teams of the 2000's would've finished short of "expectations" if they had to play 4 top 15 teams on the road in a season. I've been critical of the way Hauck is running the program this time around. You're right, I don't think it's working if that is the expectation.

Expecting the same success because that's how it used to be is dumb, IMO. Hauck said that was the expectation, and he hasn't delivered, and that's 100% valid to rake him over the coals about, but fixating on the past doesn't really matter anymore.

You know what they say about excuses. If he can’t beat the teams in his own conference, how does he possibly expect to beat the playoff teams he comes up against?

 

[uofmman1122]

We've been over this lol.

I want all of that as much as you do, but I'm also acknowledging that the landscape isn't the same as it was back then. Bobby never had a harder schedule than he did this season, and it's not particularly close. Several of those conference championship teams of the 2000's would've finished short of "expectations" if they had to play 4 top 15 teams on the road in a season. I've been critical of the way Hauck is running the program this time around. You're right, I don't think it's working if that is the expectation.

Expecting the same success because that's how it used to be is dumb, IMO. Hauck said that was the expectation, and he hasn't delivered, and that's 100% valid to rake him over the coals about, but fixating on the past doesn't really matter anymore.

You know what they say about excuses. If he can’t beat the teams in his own conference, how does he possibly expect to beat the playoff teams he comes up against?

Sometimes excuses are just explanations. Bobby's teams since he's come back have had a much higher amount of "adversities" to overcome than his old teams did. He said we should be able to overcome them, though, so I'm not saying you're wrong in all of your criticisms. :thumb:

 

[uofmman1122]

I get what you're saying, but the cats have had 5 starters in that same time period (Andersen, Rovig, Bauman, McKay, Mellott), so this idea that we're some crazy outlier seems weird.

Didn't they also have a 2017 starter who flunked out of school or something? Am I misremembering it?

Yes, Chris Murray had to leave the team.

 

[uofmman1122]

I guess that's fair, but I honestly think the only season the QB position was really bungled was not bringing in someone two years ago. Humphrey was by far the worst starter we've had since Bobby came back. I know we tried to get a backup for Johnson that could carry the torch last year, but all of the guys we went after went somewhere else, and Britt and Brown just didn't work out.

I don't think the revolving door of transfers is necessarily a bad thing, lots of top programs have shown it can and does work very well. They do need to do a better job of getting depth, if that's the way they want to go, though.

Yeah, it can work. I don't think it's a totally bankrupt approach.

But my point is that if that's your approach, then failing to land that transfer backup and/or failing to have a reasonably skilled recruit developing are indeed failures that the staff are culpable for. It's not just bum luck or misfortune.

Take it outside of the Griz for a minute. If the Cats continue building their entire offense around mobile QB's, that means they're always going to need more than one guy who can pull off that style of offense. If, in a couple years, they have failed to land those guys and the starter gets hurt and the offense falls apart, that's ineptitude moreso than bad luck.

I made a post on the club side that kind of addresses this, but not having a skilled backup you can rely on is a failure that MOST coaches have. Even the top teams in the FCS over the last few seasons have stumbled when their starter wasn't playing. We all want a backup that's as good as the starter, but that is incredibly rare. Chambers at MSU is a great example of how normally that doesn't happen. If he didn't have a close relationship with Vigen, he wouldn't have gone there to be the backup/QB1B. Hopefully Bobby and co. and get a little luck and finally get a good one.

 

[Lord Vigo]

Yeah, it can work. I don't think it's a totally bankrupt approach.

But my point is that if that's your approach, then failing to land that transfer backup and/or failing to have a reasonably skilled recruit developing are indeed failures that the staff are culpable for. It's not just bum luck or misfortune.

Take it outside of the Griz for a minute. If the Cats continue building their entire offense around mobile QB's, that means they're always going to need more than one guy who can pull off that style of offense. If, in a couple years, they have failed to land those guys and the starter gets hurt and the offense falls apart, that's ineptitude moreso than bad luck.

I made a post on the club side that kind of addresses this, but not having a skilled backup you can rely on is a failure that MOST coaches have. Even the top teams in the FCS over the last few seasons have stumbled when their starter wasn't playing. We all want a backup that's as good as the starter, but that is incredibly rare. Chambers at MSU is a great example of how normally that doesn't happen. If he didn't have a close relationship with Vigen, he wouldn't have gone there to be the backup/QB1B. Hopefully Bobby and co. and get a little luck and finally get a good one.

But see, there’s a huge spectrum between Kris Brown and Chris Chambers. Expecting a coach to have a backup as good as the starter is unreasonable. But I think it’s reasonable to expect a staff to have something better than catastrophic. There was always going to be drop off from Johnson, but the Griz offense was essentially non-functional without him.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

I made a post on the club side that kind of addresses this, but not having a skilled backup you can rely on is a failure that MOST coaches have. Even the top teams in the FCS over the last few seasons have stumbled when their starter wasn't playing. We all want a backup that's as good as the starter, but that is incredibly rare. Chambers at MSU is a great example of how normally that doesn't happen. If he didn't have a close relationship with Vigen, he wouldn't have gone there to be the backup/QB1B. Hopefully Bobby and co. and get a little luck and finally get a good one.

But see, there’s a huge spectrum between Kris Brown and Chris Chambers. Expecting a coach to have a backup as good as the starter is unreasonable. But I think it’s reasonable to expect a staff to have something better than catastrophic. There was always going to be drop off from Johnson, but the Griz offense was essentially non-functional without him.

Seems like 1122 explained exactly why/how the chasm between backups was so large in the post you quoted. Bobcats aren't immune. Y'all have had some extremely shitty backups in recent years.

 

[uofmman1122]

I made a post on the club side that kind of addresses this, but not having a skilled backup you can rely on is a failure that MOST coaches have. Even the top teams in the FCS over the last few seasons have stumbled when their starter wasn't playing. We all want a backup that's as good as the starter, but that is incredibly rare. Chambers at MSU is a great example of how normally that doesn't happen. If he didn't have a close relationship with Vigen, he wouldn't have gone there to be the backup/QB1B. Hopefully Bobby and co. and get a little luck and finally get a good one.

But see, there’s a huge spectrum between Kris Brown and Chris Chambers. Expecting a coach to have a backup as good as the starter is unreasonable. But I think it’s reasonable to expect a staff to have something better than catastrophic. There was always going to be drop off from Johnson, but the Griz offense was essentially non-functional without him.

That's absolutely true, and why I think not landing a backup transfer last year was rough. The Brown situation is pretty indefensible, though. Definitely a failure by our coaches.

But like CDA says, the gap between Chambers and most FCS backups is pretty large.

 

[Lord Vigo]

But see, there’s a huge spectrum between Kris Brown and Chris Chambers. Expecting a coach to have a backup as good as the starter is unreasonable. But I think it’s reasonable to expect a staff to have something better than catastrophic. There was always going to be drop off from Johnson, but the Griz offense was essentially non-functional without him.

Seems like 1122 explained exactly why/how the chasm between backups was so large in the post you quoted. Bobcats aren't immune. Y'all have had some extremely shitty backups in recent years.

My point isn’t that the Griz have problems that the Cats have never dealt with. My point is just that there are some fair criticisms of Hauck.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Seems like 1122 explained exactly why/how the chasm between backups was so large in the post you quoted. Bobcats aren't immune. Y'all have had some extremely shitty backups in recent years.

My point isn’t that the Griz have problems that the Cats have never dealt with. My point is just that there are some fair criticisms of Hauck.

Definitely. But asserting the backup QB situation was a shitshow (while correct) by using how much better Chambers was than Brown as evidence? That ain't it, Vig.

 

[Lord Vigo]

My point isn’t that the Griz have problems that the Cats have never dealt with. My point is just that there are some fair criticisms of Hauck.

Definitely. But asserting the backup QB situation was a shitshow (while correct) by using how much better Chambers was than Brown as evidence? That ain't it, Vig.

I must not have been clear. That’s expressly what I was not saying.

My point is that there’s a huge middle ground between the two, and it’s reasonable for fans to have expected a backup that landed somewhere in that chasm.

If Chambers is a 10 and Brown is a 2, asking for a 5 isn’t unrealistic.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Definitely. But asserting the backup QB situation was a shitshow (while correct) by using how much better Chambers was than Brown as evidence? That ain't it, Vig.

I must not have been clear. That’s expressly what I was not saying.

My point is that there’s a huge middle ground between the two, and it’s reasonable for fans to have expected a backup that landed somewhere in that chasm.

If Chambers is a 10 and Brown is a 2, asking for a 5 isn’t unrealistic.

Ah, my bad. Agreed.