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Position Comparisons
- Thread starter poorgriz
- Start date
KoolMoeDee
Well-known member
NLGrizFan said:
Can we cherry pick any set of games or do we have to use the ones he did? Would DM have even better numbers with UM's O-line or worse ? Would JJ have better numbers with MSU's O-line or worse?
George Ferguson
Well-known member
ABC, I don't disagree with you on most of what you said. But the current players and staff, already feel like the wheels came off in 2012. They don't look at last year as a fluke or an anomole, and though they could have excuses like no J.J. and NCAA Investigation, they don't. They all know that last season was unacceptable, not just to the fans and supporters, but to themselves and the program and the university. They have a very large chip on their shoulder and they want to fix last season NOW. Not later. And while the Appy game is no doubt huge, and a win would instill confidence in the team, a loss wouldn't wreck the season by any means. The Griz have lost plenty of OOC games in the past and have battled their way to Big Sky titles after. Is it the ideal way to start? No, of course not. Just like the loss to SMU won't make the Cats happy. But it won't necessarily be the death of the Griz (though you're right, in theory it could happen), just like I'm sure the Cats losing at SMU will be only a minor bump in the road to what is predicted to be a great season in Bozeman.
NLGrizFan
Well-known member
All I'm saying that numbers are numbers and that's what matters. JJ proved himself in his first season. DM is going on 4 years and still can't get as far as JJ did. But I do see what you're saying and Im not trying to "Cherry pick", all I'm saying is that its the numbers that count... ( I wish I could find that post :-x )KoolMoeDee said:
reinell30 said:
The Vols took their foot off the gas in that game. IF they'd wanted to, they could have scored 10 TD's with those two WR's...Now, they WERE embarrassed with our goal line stand and the way we moved the ball against them, but there was never any chance that that game "could have been won".
KoolMoeDee
Well-known member
NLGrizFan said:
Yes, the Griz went further in the playoffs. If the numbers count then post them all not just a certain 5 game stretch.
CatzWillRise
Well-known member
NLGrizFan said:
The only season where both guys played:
PASSING AVG/GAME Cl G Comp-Att-Int Pct. Yards TD Long Avg/G
5. Denarius McGhee-MSU SO 13 203 - 332 - 14 61.1 2799 24 95 215.3
7. Jordan Johnson-UM SO 13 205 - 343 - 9 59.8 2400 21 80 184.6
So I guess JJ threw 5 less picks, that is the only stat he was better in. JJ rushed for a couple hundred more yards but DM still had more yards from scrimmage.
CatzWillRise
Well-known member
Here is another stat from 2011, for those saying DM's numbers are nowhere near JJ's.
Both teams lost to SHSU in 2011. Scores were vastly different, yes, but passing stats by the two QBs in question are nearly identical.
McGhee went 21/36, for 272 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT.
Johnson was 21/33, 277 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT.
JJ did have a 54 yard TD run, so that is a key difference.
Both teams lost to SHSU in 2011. Scores were vastly different, yes, but passing stats by the two QBs in question are nearly identical.
McGhee went 21/36, for 272 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT.
Johnson was 21/33, 277 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT.
JJ did have a 54 yard TD run, so that is a key difference.
qb - m.s.u. (mcghee 146 career passer rating; j.j. 133)
rb - m.s.u. (cats return 1,017 5.1 per carry; we return 763, 4.5 including van)
wr - m.s.u. (cats return 1,811 12.4 per catch; we return 830 11.4)
te - m.s.u. (cats return 18-146; we return 3-40
their o is solidly ahead of us. they return their top 3 wr, top rb, top te and mcghee.
dl - u.m.
lb - u.m.
cb - even
s - m.s.u.
m.s.u. 5, u.m. 2, one tie.
rb - m.s.u. (cats return 1,017 5.1 per carry; we return 763, 4.5 including van)
wr - m.s.u. (cats return 1,811 12.4 per catch; we return 830 11.4)
te - m.s.u. (cats return 18-146; we return 3-40
their o is solidly ahead of us. they return their top 3 wr, top rb, top te and mcghee.
dl - u.m.
lb - u.m.
cb - even
s - m.s.u.
m.s.u. 5, u.m. 2, one tie.
Late to the party here. My two cents:
QB: MSU. McGhee is one of the best in the FCS. Yeah he's not got much of a post-season to brag about but there's no denying that he can slice and dice the Big Sky. Jordy out-played him in 2011 so there's a chance come Griz-Cat the roles could be reversed, however pre-season, it's DM.
RB: Toss-up. UM has more athleticism and probably more depth while MSU has more reliability and experience. One could give MSU the nod because UM is breaking in new running backs while MSU is pretty much set with experienced players. Head to head if you just had to pick Kirk vs Canada without depth or the system I'd go with Kirk personally but I like work-horse backs and Canada has yet to complete a full season healthy.
WR: Toss-up. Each team has 1 WR returning (Bleskin and Henderson) that's going to be the main target and then a lot of role players they're looking to have step up. Each system is different, UM is smaller and quicker for the most part, MSU is a little bigger and designed to be more well-rounded for run-block support.
TE: MSU. They've got experience at TE, the Griz don't.
OL: UM. 3 seniors, good depth, maybe the best Olineman (Kistler) in the conference. MSU lacks size and experience compared to UM, depth is also an issue for them I believe.
DL: UM. After Josh Harris was slowed by injury UM started the same 4 they'll use this season. Wags is one of the best DEs in the Big Sky and if Holmes continues to improve off a stellar true frosh season he'll be right there as well. Bienemann, Takai, and Kidder make up a great group of interior tackles.
LB: UM. It was UM before MSU's loss of Na'a and now it's REALLY in favor of UM.
CB: Toss up? This one I have no clue on, MSU's best corner is gone but they were a good pass D last year all around. UM returns all of their corners from last year which could be a good thing if they've improved, or a bad thing if they haven't.
S: MSU. Until our safeties prove otherwise I can't really rate them higher than anyone.
Coaching: MSU. The trick about rating the coaching is that in some of these conversations the coaching is treated like a single factor that applies like a blanket over the whole team. Which isn't the case. MSU's staff has worked together for years, yeah it's had some departures but what good coaching staff doesn't have that? Really we should look at it as HC/OC/DC etc for additional comparisons. Of course with exception to maybe OL, DL, and RB I think most of MSU's coaching staff (position and assistants) would be perceived as being ranked "better" than UMs. They have more experience at this level, more experience with their current players, and more experience in the system they're running. Meanwhile the UM has just a few coaches that have more than 3 years tenure here... two to be exact (Gregorak and Delaney).
QB: MSU. McGhee is one of the best in the FCS. Yeah he's not got much of a post-season to brag about but there's no denying that he can slice and dice the Big Sky. Jordy out-played him in 2011 so there's a chance come Griz-Cat the roles could be reversed, however pre-season, it's DM.
RB: Toss-up. UM has more athleticism and probably more depth while MSU has more reliability and experience. One could give MSU the nod because UM is breaking in new running backs while MSU is pretty much set with experienced players. Head to head if you just had to pick Kirk vs Canada without depth or the system I'd go with Kirk personally but I like work-horse backs and Canada has yet to complete a full season healthy.
WR: Toss-up. Each team has 1 WR returning (Bleskin and Henderson) that's going to be the main target and then a lot of role players they're looking to have step up. Each system is different, UM is smaller and quicker for the most part, MSU is a little bigger and designed to be more well-rounded for run-block support.
TE: MSU. They've got experience at TE, the Griz don't.
OL: UM. 3 seniors, good depth, maybe the best Olineman (Kistler) in the conference. MSU lacks size and experience compared to UM, depth is also an issue for them I believe.
DL: UM. After Josh Harris was slowed by injury UM started the same 4 they'll use this season. Wags is one of the best DEs in the Big Sky and if Holmes continues to improve off a stellar true frosh season he'll be right there as well. Bienemann, Takai, and Kidder make up a great group of interior tackles.
LB: UM. It was UM before MSU's loss of Na'a and now it's REALLY in favor of UM.
CB: Toss up? This one I have no clue on, MSU's best corner is gone but they were a good pass D last year all around. UM returns all of their corners from last year which could be a good thing if they've improved, or a bad thing if they haven't.
S: MSU. Until our safeties prove otherwise I can't really rate them higher than anyone.
Coaching: MSU. The trick about rating the coaching is that in some of these conversations the coaching is treated like a single factor that applies like a blanket over the whole team. Which isn't the case. MSU's staff has worked together for years, yeah it's had some departures but what good coaching staff doesn't have that? Really we should look at it as HC/OC/DC etc for additional comparisons. Of course with exception to maybe OL, DL, and RB I think most of MSU's coaching staff (position and assistants) would be perceived as being ranked "better" than UMs. They have more experience at this level, more experience with their current players, and more experience in the system they're running. Meanwhile the UM has just a few coaches that have more than 3 years tenure here... two to be exact (Gregorak and Delaney).
getgrizzy said:
Griz have the better QB, RBs, OL and better athletes at WR. I'll give you TE for now but after another blowout Griz win in the blowzone this November I doubt anyone will be describing the cats as having tight ends, if you know what I mean. Other than that, I agree with everything you posted.
indian-outlaw
Well-known member
Here is what I think and I am about as unbiased as you can get as a griz fan.
QB: MSU slightly Totally agree with grizfan95 only reason this is not a toss up is because JJ has missed a year and DM is very experienced. DM is a solid qb but is not the best decision maker under real pressure. With JJ the griz may have the edge by cat/griz time.
RB: MSU, this isn’t even close. This one baffles me We may have slightly more depth but Canada is nowhere near as good as Kirk. He is a horse and if he ran behind our line he would be equal or better than Chase Reynolds. They don’t have depth but as durable as he is they wont need it much.
TE: toss up, both teams have some potential here but don’t really know who will emerge.
OL: UM by a long shot. We are strong up front. The cats will be improved from last year but still only ave for the conference. Their OL last year was nothing short of pathetic and they still won the conference, that should tell you something about their skill players.
Recievers: toss up Henderson with a slight edge over Bleskin, flotkoeter slight edge over Sailor. They do have that kid from unlv that looks athletic.
DL: UM we are deep and strong, they have a couple pretty good ends and some young uns playing tackle. The Thomas kid might be a help since they moved him to defense.
LB: UM, I actually would have called this a toss up if they wouldn’t have lost Maleoki or what ever his name was.
Corners: MSU I think they have more potential but it’s a tough call. That kid from texas will most likely be a player
Safety: Blethley is good hermanson and tully are average
Special teams: toss up, although we may have more young bodies for ko and punt coverage teams.
Coach: MSU, I actually don’t think Ash is that great but he know how to bring in great assistants who can get it done.
If their o-line comes around a bit their offense will be great. I think teams will run on their defense so they better be able to score.
We win cat/griz this year because of our strength up front on the OL and DL.
QB: MSU slightly Totally agree with grizfan95 only reason this is not a toss up is because JJ has missed a year and DM is very experienced. DM is a solid qb but is not the best decision maker under real pressure. With JJ the griz may have the edge by cat/griz time.
RB: MSU, this isn’t even close. This one baffles me We may have slightly more depth but Canada is nowhere near as good as Kirk. He is a horse and if he ran behind our line he would be equal or better than Chase Reynolds. They don’t have depth but as durable as he is they wont need it much.
TE: toss up, both teams have some potential here but don’t really know who will emerge.
OL: UM by a long shot. We are strong up front. The cats will be improved from last year but still only ave for the conference. Their OL last year was nothing short of pathetic and they still won the conference, that should tell you something about their skill players.
Recievers: toss up Henderson with a slight edge over Bleskin, flotkoeter slight edge over Sailor. They do have that kid from unlv that looks athletic.
DL: UM we are deep and strong, they have a couple pretty good ends and some young uns playing tackle. The Thomas kid might be a help since they moved him to defense.
LB: UM, I actually would have called this a toss up if they wouldn’t have lost Maleoki or what ever his name was.
Corners: MSU I think they have more potential but it’s a tough call. That kid from texas will most likely be a player
Safety: Blethley is good hermanson and tully are average
Special teams: toss up, although we may have more young bodies for ko and punt coverage teams.
Coach: MSU, I actually don’t think Ash is that great but he know how to bring in great assistants who can get it done.
If their o-line comes around a bit their offense will be great. I think teams will run on their defense so they better be able to score.
We win cat/griz this year because of our strength up front on the OL and DL.
garizzalies
Well-known member
anyone who puts Cody Kirk in the same sentence as Chase Reynolds needs to have their head examined (it doesn't matter how you qualify the sentence). I don't get the infatuation with CK at all; I've never seen a more average RB get so much hype.
And i personally don't think LBJ can hold JJ's jock. He might have a stronger arm than JJ but that's about it and arm strength doesn't mean shit if you're not accurate. LBJ's "accuracy" seems to be limited to systematic repetition, meaning he's okay if the play goes exactly as practiced, but once it breaks down, look out. I've never seen him "thread the needle" like JJ nor have i ever thought he had a nice "touch" on the ball.
And i personally don't think LBJ can hold JJ's jock. He might have a stronger arm than JJ but that's about it and arm strength doesn't mean shit if you're not accurate. LBJ's "accuracy" seems to be limited to systematic repetition, meaning he's okay if the play goes exactly as practiced, but once it breaks down, look out. I've never seen him "thread the needle" like JJ nor have i ever thought he had a nice "touch" on the ball.
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