Petition for Gov to look into RE

[NativeGriz]

Didn't we have a surplus when Dennison was here despite how much he took from the athletic dept. for other UM programs. Also I don't recall image problems with Dennison. And he was much more entertaining at parties-maybe drank too much. Not saying Dennison was a great Pres, but I would take him all day long versus RE. He seemed to know how to deal with press and where not to step. I did not know about his subdivision plans.

 

[tnt]

Didn't we have a surplus when Dennison was here despite how much he took from the athletic dept. for other UM programs. Also I don't recall image problems with Dennison. And he was much more entertaining at parties-maybe drank too much. Not saying Dennison was a great Pres, but I would take him all day long versus RE. He seemed to know how to deal with press and where not to step. I did not know about his subdivision plans.

No, Dennison had huge problems, and was facing similar in 2010. One of the biggest issues was lack of research Grants and outside support. In fact he took the unusual step of calling an all campus convocation to discuss the issues. He also faced because of his liberal use of adjuncts to balance the budget some certification of a number of programs because too few classes were being taught by "real professors" Not the least of which was the business school. At that time the faculty was upset that they would all have to start teaching mire classes and labeled him "King George" as they felt he was more interested in "empire Building" His expanding Jim Foleys role dealing with faculty lead to almost rebellion (note as bad as the first two years of Wadeds tenure on the other side of the state but close) One of the things that lead to the faculties endorsement of REs presdiencey was his informal promise to get rid of foley. Prolly the LEAST in tune bunch to deal with is the faculty and the poorest source of real information.

 

[NativeGriz]

This should tell you all you need to know about the BoR. Clay Christian, the Chairman of BoR, who makes $290K a year and is the highest education official in the state, has neither his Masters nor his PhD. He got his Bachelor's in his late 30's, not too long before he became Chairman, and by his own admission barely got that. How is it possible that the head of education for entire state is not even required to have his Master, let alone a PhD?!

Another piece of pertinent info, Royce was a major supporter of Clay in his bid to become Chairman...

I think your dates are wrong since Clayton is not that old. Regarding his education I also heard it was limited as was his experience. Something about him running a title company which basically gave him a license to steal.

 

[NativeGriz]

Didn't we have a surplus when Dennison was here despite how much he took from the athletic dept. for other UM programs. Also I don't recall image problems with Dennison. And he was much more entertaining at parties-maybe drank too much. Not saying Dennison was a great Pres, but I would take him all day long versus RE. He seemed to know how to deal with press and where not to step. I did not know about his subdivision plans.

No, Dennison had huge problems, and was facing similar in 2010. One of the biggest issues was lack of research Grants and outside support. In fact he took the unusual step of calling an all campus convocation to discuss the issues. He also faced because of his liberal use of adjuncts to balance the budget some certification of a number of programs because too few classes were being taught by "real professors" Not the least of which was the business school. At that time the faculty was upset that they would all have to start teaching mire classes and labeled him "King George" as they felt he was more interested in "empire Building" His expanding Jim Foleys role dealing with faculty lead to almost rebellion (note as bad as the first two years of Wadeds tenure on the other side of the state but close) One of the things that lead to the faculties endorsement of REs presdiencey was his informal promise to get rid of foley. Prolly the LEAST in tune bunch to deal with is the faculty and the poorest source of real information.

So RE did inherit some problems and RE has managed to take those problems to a new level of low. He just isn't a good CEO type person.

 

[statler & waldorf]

Some interesting reads. Apparently the deck is stacked. Look at who appointed the BOR, Schweitzer and Bullock. Then the hand picked BOR abandons a national search and hires a Missoula good old boy. The State Senate is complicit in rubber stamping BOR appointments.

 

[UMGriz75]

Its close. As much as 75 wants to blame this mess on RE, he simply can't. Its just one more of the many messes he inherited from Dennison. Recall a big part of the whole thing was Dennison basically wanting to "sub divide" the golf course. He wanted to build "condos" for all the rah rah boys wanting to relive their college days and live on "campus" to be closer to the wine and cheese parties for the in crowd.

Well, I attended the meetings at which RE was just baffled about the opposition to the tech campus on the golf course, and I know for a fact he had no idea that the land was restricted by the original deed. Did you notice I said that the project began under Dennison? But, it had only reached the "building proposal" phase -- an architects design of a proposed structure(s). Very early planning phase. More like a "thinking" phase. Money had not been requested from the legislature.

The condo project was the brainchild of Bob Duringer, UM's Financial VP. I knew Bob reasonably well, and he would call me in once in a while about this or that. The Condo project was certainly bad optics, but he had proposed using a part of the golf course on the extreme south end, fronting on Pattee Canyon Drive, which isn't actually used as part of the golf course, and is kind of a "no man's land," of just a place for storage and rough grass and bushes. It is immediately next to the urban interface of south Missoula and the traffic corridor and because of its extreme location, doesn't have a function as part of University activities, per se.

His idea was that "this is not being used for anything, we keep piling junk on it because it is excess space, and we can use it to generate some income." Bad idea? Good idea? It certainly wasn't the worst idea in the history of the University. It was hand-in-hand with the student housing development of Lewis & Clark Village, which did take part of the golf course proper, and which was perhaps the part that did get people more riled up, but it did actually get built as married student housing, which turned out pretty classy for U housing. So yes, that was an actual Dennison project.

 

[tnt]

Its close. As much as 75 wants to blame this mess on RE, he simply can't. Its just one more of the many messes he inherited from Dennison. Recall a big part of the whole thing was Dennison basically wanting to "sub divide" the golf course. He wanted to build "condos" for all the rah rah boys wanting to relive their college days and live on "campus" to be closer to the wine and cheese parties for the in crowd.

Well, I attended the meetings at which RE was just baffled about the opposition to the tech campus on the golf course, and I know for a fact he had no idea that the land was restricted by the original deed. Did you notice I said that the project began under Dennison? But, it had only reached the "building proposal" phase -- an architects design of a proposed structure(s). Very early planning phase. More like a "thinking" phase. Money had not been requested from the legislature.

The condo project was the brainchild of Bob Duringer, UM's Financial VP. I knew Bob reasonably well, and he would call me in once in a while about this or that. The Condo project was certainly bad optics, but he had proposed using a part of the golf course on the extreme south end, fronting on Pattee Canyon Drive, which isn't actually used as part of the golf course, and is kind of a "no man's land," of just a place for storage and rough grass and bushes. It is immediately next to the urban interface of south Missoula and the traffic corridor and because of its extreme location, doesn't have a function as part of University activities, per se.

His idea was that "this is not being used for anything, we keep piling junk on it because it is excess space, and we can use it to generate some income." Bad idea? Good idea? It certainly wasn't the worst idea in the history of the University. It was hand-in-hand with the student housing development of Lewis & Clark Village, which did take part of the golf course proper, and which was perhaps the part that did get people more riled up, but it did actually get built as married student housing, which turned out pretty classy for U housing. So yes, that was an actual Dennison project.

I'm not arguing that.... RE simply was not he man for the job. Considering the mess that was there, between the faculty issue, the academic issues, the empire building issues, a massive capital program (with no capital) the native center, then the Football issues, I'm not sure if anyone would have known where to start. He picked the wrong fire to put out first for sure. You do have to admit he quickly got rid of his cabinet, not sure the replacements were any better advisors, but that's on him too.

I agree on the condo project, but when the Good Food store morning crowd got involved everything got messy.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

"Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king."

--Robert Zimmerman

 

[UMGriz75]

No, Dennison had huge problems, and was facing similar in 2010. One of the biggest issues was lack of research Grants and outside support.

No, that's wrong. I don't have my numbers here handy, but three or four years ago I did look at the research funding, and when George took office, UM had something on the order of $6 million a year, and by the time he retired, research funding was approaching $80 million. These are big ballpark numbers that I am recalling "off the top."

His overall record was to have increased research funding faster than at MSU, which was quite an achievement. His biggest accomplishments were the Pharmacy and Business School expansions, which really put UM on the map for both, and the Pharmacy/Biochem building projects were a big spark plug for research grants because we had the outstanding facilities. For recruiting, he pushed the campus rec expansion which really did impress people, and of course he was a big promoter of the Stadium expansions. He got Phyllis Washington to sink a ton of money into the School of Education, which resurrected what was formerly kind of a floundering program, and of course the Law School expansion, Performing Arts building.

The current Business School Executive building under construction was a project begun under Dennison, and as it is being finished, looks to be another home run.

And of course, every year, increasing enrollments, breaking records with virtually each passing year.

Using sports metaphors, Dennison generated a terrific momentum during his tenure. UM surpassed MSU in enrollment and was growing faster at the same time. RE has reversed all of that momentum; UM is now failing in every category of comparison (except of course the one that counts, football). RE had a terrific tailwind behind him from the Dennison years, and has mis-spent it all. Time to change the QB.

 

[UMGriz75]

I agree on the condo project, but when the Good Food store morning crowd got involved everything got messy.

I think that might have been about the time that the author of the current Petition got "involved" in protesting UM activities. He then ran for the Legislature in the UM district.

 

[tnt]

Dennison killed what was going on (not to mention the research died his last two years) when he decided to bypass traditional education by destroying not one but two schools. He decided that the the "VO Tech" needed to be an associate degree program. It seemed like a good idea except for the fact diesel mechanics, small engine guys etc etc chose those vocations because they didn't want to take psychology, speech communications and algebra plus a few other liberal arts programs. Liberal arts which was on a bubble anyway. became worthless at best at UM when he unified the campuses. The ONLY reason for that was balance his bloated budget. Instead of real professors, he was now able to turn entry level classes where students used to get turned on to education into glorified high school classes taught by masters level (at best) teachers who could teach at the "vo tech" without running afoul of the accreditation committees. If some of those cross credit classes were taught on the Mountain Campus, so much the better. U of M undergrads could avail themselves of the opportunity.

The only reason the Missoula college was built in proximity to the Mountain campus was to continue the mess. RE really screwed the pooch when he added an AA degree that had nothing to with either vocation or Technology. and the tries an end run around the nursing school. The only result was to lower

 

[Grisly Fan]

Time to change the QB.

Pull his scholarship but be sure there is a good outplacement program. Some school somewhere will really get "lucky"...

 

[tnt]

Dennison killed what was going on (not to mention the research died his last two years) when he decided to bypass traditional education by destroying not one but two schools. He decided that the the "VO Tech" needed to be an associate degree program. It seemed like a good idea except for the fact diesel mechanics, small engine guys etc etc chose those vocations because they didn't want to take psychology, speech communications and algebra plus a few other liberal arts programs. Liberal arts which was on a bubble anyway. became worthless at best at UM when he unified the campuses. The ONLY reason for that was balance his bloated budget. Instead of real professors, he was now able to turn entry level classes where students used to get turned on to education into glorified high school classes taught by masters level (at best) teachers who could teach at the "vo tech" without running afoul of the accreditation committees. If some of those cross credit classes were taught on the Mountain Campus, so much the better. U of M undergrads could avail themselves of the opportunity.

The only reason the Missoula college was built in proximity to the Mountain campus was to continue the mess. RE really screwed the pooch when he added an AA degree that had nothing to with either vocation or Technology. and the tries an end run around the nursing school. The only result was to lower already lowered academic bar and eliminate a great Vo-Tech program. Of course enrollment is sliding. Missoula college offers little now, and the undergrad program at the Mountain college has not nuch more stature than a community college. THAT is REs crime

 

[Buttegrizzle]

Mods? Is this still in the football forum?

 

[UMGriz75]

In another egregious "RE" lack of action, from another thread.

Noting that MSU's women's BB coach Binford got a huge payraise:

MSU proposed that Binford receive a 47.2 percent raise, from a base salary of $91,709 to $135,000. With the approval of Binford’s base salary, the eighth-year Bobcat head coach is the fourth-highest paid collegiate coach in Montana.

In fact, Binford now makes more in base salary than either Division I men’s basketball coaches in the state. MSU head coach Brad Huse got a 2.45-percent raise to $113,824. Huse’s team was 12-16 last season.

UM head coach Wayne Tinkle led the Griz to a school-record 25 wins. Montana won the Big Sky Conference tournament and played in the NCAA tournament last fall. Tinkle got a raise from $124,322 to $127,308.

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/sports/bobcats/womens-basketball/montana-state-s-binford-gets-percent-pay-raise-now-makes/article_c8359160-03a1-11e2-901d-0019bb2963f4.html

MSU's Cruzado went to bat for Binford to get that extraordinary, really unprecendented, raise. UM's president did not lift a finger for Wayne Tinkle (who received the same % increase as Huse).

Any wonder Wayne left?

Of course, at the same time, the MSU football coach earns nearly the same as the UM coach, notwithstanding the far greater success of that position in recent years at UM.

There's a good example. MSU fought hard for a high raise, to obtain mediocrity. Under Royce Engstrom, UM won't fight at all to reward success.

From a news item, 2013:
Montana State Football Coach Rob Ash $179,000 annual salary
University of Montana Football Coach Mick Delaney’s $165,557 annual salary

How Much Do University Coaches and Administrators Get Paid in Montana? | http://xlcountry.com/how-much-do-university-coaches-and-administrators-get-paid-in-montana/?trackback=tsmclip

Bob Stitt's salary? $175,000.

 

[Grizzoola]

Wouldn't you think it would have been more logical to petition Engstrom's bosses, the BOR, rather than the governor? Also, forging (spoofing?)Robin Pflugrad's signature was shockingly stupid on someone's part. If Engstrom is to be let go, it will be largely because of a vote of no confidence on the part of UM faculty, and perhaps that is coming. To have lost the confidence of the "egriz community," some of whose members have grudges relating only to a perceived lack of appreciation for the football program? MEH. Like Pflugrad, "I would question the validity of a petition like that." :twocents:

Engstroms bosses are possibly even dumber than Royce.

This. The BOR are a group of people with little or no knowledge of higher ed., who simply go by whatever the university presidents tell them, since it's the university presidents who, in fact, control MT higher ed. It began with George Dennison. The Commissioner of Higher Ed. and his subordinates have no more knowledge of what a higher ed. system should be than the average pan-handler on north Higgins.

The MT University System is rife with political appointees, sincere but ignorant personnel, nepotism, etc., all of whom cowtow to the university presidents, who know only about their own institutions. There is no vision, no perspective anywhere in the BOR or the MUS. It's a disastrous legacy of George Dennison.

It's a stretch that the BOR would fire RE, no matter the public outcry. The BOR and MUS have political immunity from the legislature and the public. It's in the 1972 MT Consitution.

 

[Grizzoola]

What happened with his big plan for Missoula College ($45M+ project)? If he was the one that presented the proposal, it was doomed to begin with. What has RE accomplished since coming to Missoula? Why did the BOR give MSU such a great pres. and UM an under qualified man with no speaking skills? Why didn't the BOR reopen the search after the first 2 choices declined? With all things considered, the BOR has failed, Clay Christian has failed and now it is time to involve the governor if these other people wont do their jobs.

Evidently not, since construction has begun and is scheduled to be done in the summer of 2017. :?
Seriously. If some of you don't even know the very basics of what you're talking about regarding what's happening at UM, perhaps consider 10 minutes spent on google prior to posting.

Everett, you are the one doesn't know what he's talking about. All I'll say here is that UM and the MT University System made a big mistake in not making Missoula College a comprehensive community college at its Fort Missoula property. RE shows his lack of vision, knowledge, and perspective of a comprehensive community college's benefit to its community. He blindly followed his predecessor and mentor, George Dennison, in maintaining the illusion that the universities know more about community colleges than the people at Missoula College.

Locating MC at its East Broadway location is a disaster. Nobody in the MUS system cares a fig about community colleges, and I include most on this board.

 

[UMGriz75]

The only reason the Missoula college was built in proximity to the Mountain campus was to continue the mess. RE really screwed the pooch when he added an AA degree that had nothing to with either vocation or Technology. and the tries an end run around the nursing school. The only result was to lower

You could be right on that one. I was one that questioned the move from the Fort Missoula campus; UM had tons of empty acreage out there, they had to keep the facilities anyway because of the heavy equipment program, and so "saving costs by consolidation into one campus" didn't happen and couldn't happen, even though they kept saying it in their literature. At one point, because of the substantial acreage UM had out there, there were plans made to eventually develop a "research campus," dedicated solely to the sciences, graduate education and research, tech development, and biomedical sciences -- a kind of Palo Alto Xerox PARC for Montana. But, that was too much vision for Montana -- the sign erected in the late 1970s on South Avenue promoting the project fell down a few years ago, before UM gave the property to the city for recreation.

This was of course, a terrific asset for UM no matter how you looked at it. A "future campus" for development including for sports facilities such as the "indoor practice facility." Engstrom gave it away.

 

[Ursa Major]

I don't know if true, but I heard RE and most of RE's administration are LDS, which if true might come under title 7 as a violation. It is obvious that regardless of religion, they have failed and the entire group should be kicked out. Plus some of the faculty cuts included people that had brought in research grant money that was in excess of their income. Why would you cut someone like that? Plain and simple, RE needs to go.

Engstrom is not LDS. Kent is, but I believe he's the only one on the cabinet who is, although I cannot say for certain.

Don't forget Monte. LDS all the way.