ilovethecats
Well-known member
PlayerRep said:
Not very good sarcasm. :thumb:
-
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No one knows where people are getting infected
- Thread starter PlayerRep
- Start date
Not very good sarcasm. :thumb:
MikeyGriz
Well-known member
argh! said:
That must have been before the virus mutated into a version that masks were kryptonite to! Everyone knows that Dr. Fauci is never wrong about anything infectuous. If we had just listened to him and followed with blind, unwavering obedience, we would be over this pandemic by now! :roll:
argh! said:
He wasn't alone. At time went on, Fauci is the guy I listened to the most, and still listen to him.
"June 8, 2020 -- The World Health Organization has changed its stance on wearing face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic. People over 60 and people with underlying medical conditions should wear a medical-grade mask when they’re in public and cannot socially distance, the WHO said. The general public should wear a three-layer fabric mask in those situations.
The WHO also updated their advice for medical workers, saying all of them should always wear a medical mask while in clinical areas, not just people working with COVID-19 patients.
The organization had previously said there wasn’t enough medical evidence to support members of the public wearing a mask, unless they were sick or around people with the coronavirus. The widespread wearing of masks might lead to a mask shortage for medical workers and create a false sense of security in the public, WHO officials had said.
WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, speaking Friday during a media briefing in Geneva, said WHO’s stance was based on new research."
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200608/who-changes-stance-says-public-should-wear-masks
PlayerRep said:
One other thing remember when Trump wanted to be in charge of the PPE rollout for all the states? The Dem. Governors had a fit
Most Governors know there state better and I agree, but to then blame him for not having a national plan is just stupid. Also MN has been mostly locked down since August and this Nov and Dec have been the Covid capital of the nation.
Bison Dan said:
[Fact Check from NPR on federal-state authority:]
""It's so plain and obvious it's not even debatable," added Kathleen Bergin, a professor at Cornell Law School.
"Trump has no authority to ease social distancing, or to open schools or private businesses," she said. "These are matters for states to decide under their power to promote public health and welfare, a power guaranteed by the 10th Amendment to the Constitution. Despite what he claims, no president has absolute authority over domestic policy, and he certainly has no power to override the type of measures that have been taken across the country that have proved successful in flattening the curve."
Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker, a Democrat, told NPR's Morning Edition Tuesday: "The reality is that the president does not have the authority to tell the states what to do in this regard. We put the executive orders in place. We're the ones who are responsible for the safety and health of the people of our states."
New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, also a Democrat, said on MSNBC's Morning Joe: "The president basically declared himself King Trump, right? And all that annoying federal-state back and forth our Founding Fathers went through, he just disregarded that."
Cuomo vowed to challenge in court any presidential order to reopen the state against his will.
Later Tuesday, Cuomo said he doesn't want to fight with the president. And Trump himself said his decision about easing restrictions "is going to be done in conjunction with governors."
Bradley Moss, a Washington attorney who specializes in national security law, said, "Quite simply, there is no provision that gives a president 'total' authority, and particularly none in the context of a public health crisis."
Moss said the Constitution delegates most public health authorities to the states, not the federal government. The president can declare national emergencies, Moss says, which Trump did on March 13, and even designate select groups for quarantine, but none of his authorities permit him to dictate how entire states open or close.:''
https://egriz.com/grizboard/posting.php?mode=quote&f=1&p=1459694
[Wall St. Journal Opinion Piece]
"The Slow Birth of Covid Realism
Can we now admit that herd immunity and vaccines will work in tandem?"
"Italy, last seen trying to prosecute government scientists for failing to forecast an earthquake, is now pioneering the use of criminal prosecutors to examine the country’s Covid-19 response.
Still, the particulars of the indictment being sought by relatives of early victims will ring bells for many Americans: the shipping of infected persons to nursing homes, failure to test patients who couldn’t be connected to China, failing to order lockdowns sooner, worrying about the potential impact on businesses.
The U.S. remains in a similar phase of denial, with every failure related to testing, mask promotion, etc., spun as a missed chance to extinguish Covid altogether. When the reality principle intrudes, here’s suspecting the greatest failure will be the one we are least willing to acknowledge or even understand: It began with our strange reticence to acknowledge the reality of mild (and, as it turned out, asymptomatic) Covid.
Any alert person knew from the get-go that, amid the exigencies of Wuhan, Chinese doctors were failing to detect mild cases, and that thousands of these cases were likely being exported to the world. Whatever the horrors in Wuhan’s hospitals, they happened not because Covid-19 is an extravagantly deadly respiratory infection. They happened because a flu-like disease had been allowed to spread unrecognized for months in an urban population unprotected by any prior immunity or vaccine.
Yet it instantly became a U.S. journalistic trope to accuse anyone mentioning the flu of “downplaying” the new disease—downplaying anything being the worst sin in journalism.
Inexplicably, authorities, including the World Health Organization, insisted on promoting a fatality rate they knew was exaggerated because of the failure to account for mild infections. To this day, U.S. officialdom and the media dwell on a nearly meaningless “confirmed” case count, knowing full well that doing so is innumerate and unstatistical. It’s a mystery and my only explanation is that they are afraid to stop because it portrays the disease as more deadly than it is (supporting the case for urgency) and also less prevalent than it is (supporting the case that it can somehow be contained).
To give the latest example, a Johns Hopkins study finds that in late spring in Maryland, when “confirmed” cases were less than 1% of the state’s population, 10% of autopsies showed evidence of Covid infection—a rate that applied equally to auto-accident victims and people who died of natural causes.
As the pandemic has unfolded, only deeper has become media revilement of anyone who pointed out that the death risk was being exaggerated, that the lockdowns were not sustainable due to the costs they imposed on people who were at low risk, that our efforts would be better invested in shielding those at high risk of a bad medical outcome.
The hostility is even greater now that these views have been adopted implicitly and unavowedly almost everywhere in obedience to the reality principle. The lockdowns were unsustainable. Low-risk people were unwilling to maintain energetic social distancing through the summer and fall. Vaccines are being rolled out now expressly to protect the most vulnerable first.
For all their talk that no cost is too great to save a life, the actual behavior of our elected officials has made clear that the one thing they believe their careers can’t tolerate is a breakdown in hospital care for Covid patients and others.
I’ve informally adopted Brown University’s Ashish Jha as my metric for realism’s gradual unfurling. In his latest media appearances, he invariably now stresses unseen spread, the impracticality of the lockdown solution, a role for herd immunity in supplementing vaccination to end the pandemic—even if he also occasionally utters imprecations against these opinion pages for making the same arguments months ago.
When it’s over, countries like Germany and Sweden, which have hardly been spared Covid’s ravages, I suspect will be seen as the least-bad models. And for reasons American leaders will be loath to admit: They treated their people like adults. They leveled with their citizens about Covid’s inevitable spread. They skimped on the baby talk, virtue signaling, or any resort (especially prevalent in the U.S.) to trying to mislead a supposedly infantile public for its own good.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-slow-birth-of-covid-realism-11609284003?mod=hp_opin_pos_3
"The Slow Birth of Covid Realism
Can we now admit that herd immunity and vaccines will work in tandem?"
"Italy, last seen trying to prosecute government scientists for failing to forecast an earthquake, is now pioneering the use of criminal prosecutors to examine the country’s Covid-19 response.
Still, the particulars of the indictment being sought by relatives of early victims will ring bells for many Americans: the shipping of infected persons to nursing homes, failure to test patients who couldn’t be connected to China, failing to order lockdowns sooner, worrying about the potential impact on businesses.
The U.S. remains in a similar phase of denial, with every failure related to testing, mask promotion, etc., spun as a missed chance to extinguish Covid altogether. When the reality principle intrudes, here’s suspecting the greatest failure will be the one we are least willing to acknowledge or even understand: It began with our strange reticence to acknowledge the reality of mild (and, as it turned out, asymptomatic) Covid.
Any alert person knew from the get-go that, amid the exigencies of Wuhan, Chinese doctors were failing to detect mild cases, and that thousands of these cases were likely being exported to the world. Whatever the horrors in Wuhan’s hospitals, they happened not because Covid-19 is an extravagantly deadly respiratory infection. They happened because a flu-like disease had been allowed to spread unrecognized for months in an urban population unprotected by any prior immunity or vaccine.
Yet it instantly became a U.S. journalistic trope to accuse anyone mentioning the flu of “downplaying” the new disease—downplaying anything being the worst sin in journalism.
Inexplicably, authorities, including the World Health Organization, insisted on promoting a fatality rate they knew was exaggerated because of the failure to account for mild infections. To this day, U.S. officialdom and the media dwell on a nearly meaningless “confirmed” case count, knowing full well that doing so is innumerate and unstatistical. It’s a mystery and my only explanation is that they are afraid to stop because it portrays the disease as more deadly than it is (supporting the case for urgency) and also less prevalent than it is (supporting the case that it can somehow be contained).
To give the latest example, a Johns Hopkins study finds that in late spring in Maryland, when “confirmed” cases were less than 1% of the state’s population, 10% of autopsies showed evidence of Covid infection—a rate that applied equally to auto-accident victims and people who died of natural causes.
As the pandemic has unfolded, only deeper has become media revilement of anyone who pointed out that the death risk was being exaggerated, that the lockdowns were not sustainable due to the costs they imposed on people who were at low risk, that our efforts would be better invested in shielding those at high risk of a bad medical outcome.
The hostility is even greater now that these views have been adopted implicitly and unavowedly almost everywhere in obedience to the reality principle. The lockdowns were unsustainable. Low-risk people were unwilling to maintain energetic social distancing through the summer and fall. Vaccines are being rolled out now expressly to protect the most vulnerable first.
For all their talk that no cost is too great to save a life, the actual behavior of our elected officials has made clear that the one thing they believe their careers can’t tolerate is a breakdown in hospital care for Covid patients and others.
I’ve informally adopted Brown University’s Ashish Jha as my metric for realism’s gradual unfurling. In his latest media appearances, he invariably now stresses unseen spread, the impracticality of the lockdown solution, a role for herd immunity in supplementing vaccination to end the pandemic—even if he also occasionally utters imprecations against these opinion pages for making the same arguments months ago.
When it’s over, countries like Germany and Sweden, which have hardly been spared Covid’s ravages, I suspect will be seen as the least-bad models. And for reasons American leaders will be loath to admit: They treated their people like adults. They leveled with their citizens about Covid’s inevitable spread. They skimped on the baby talk, virtue signaling, or any resort (especially prevalent in the U.S.) to trying to mislead a supposedly infantile public for its own good.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-slow-birth-of-covid-realism-11609284003?mod=hp_opin_pos_3
What the author is saying is the covid was never going to be controlled or completely controlled in the US. It had spread, quietly, too far too fast, in part because of China misleading and being silent. It was learned far too late that: the spread could come from asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spreaders; most of the spread was from being close too close others, not from surfaces; and it spread way more easily than things like the flu, more like measles. Meadows was honest in saying it won't/can't be controlled.
It was/is like flu. Just spreads way more easily (which is a huge deal). There were few good early treatments, and many treatment mistakes made. No vaccines. Another difference was that it was much more deadly than the flu for older people, and I assume unhealthy people (but don't know the difference there), and much less deadly for the very young and not old.
Spacing, avoiding crowds and masking, yes. But note the early messages from the CDC, WHO, Fauci, etc. on masks.
Testing and tracing became the mantra, but I never thought those things were going to stop the virus. Not in the US. Not in a free and independent country, and one with Constitutional rights and many very strong-willed independent people. Not in a non-island country. I saw some person saying in other comments that China completely shut down an area/city with 11 millions people for 3 months. Sorry, but I just don't see the US completely shutting down NYC and LA for 3 months, no matter what.
The key has turned out to be the vaccines. Trump et al nailed that one with Warp Speed. The drug companies have been amazing. Huge talent, smarts and effort.
I don't give Trump a pass, and his messaging was mostly bad to horrible. However, my view is that the media and Dem mantra became let's blame Trump, but much or some of that was completely overblown. The federal government did many good things.
Listen to the science and scientists. Don't get me started there.
It was/is like flu. Just spreads way more easily (which is a huge deal). There were few good early treatments, and many treatment mistakes made. No vaccines. Another difference was that it was much more deadly than the flu for older people, and I assume unhealthy people (but don't know the difference there), and much less deadly for the very young and not old.
Spacing, avoiding crowds and masking, yes. But note the early messages from the CDC, WHO, Fauci, etc. on masks.
Testing and tracing became the mantra, but I never thought those things were going to stop the virus. Not in the US. Not in a free and independent country, and one with Constitutional rights and many very strong-willed independent people. Not in a non-island country. I saw some person saying in other comments that China completely shut down an area/city with 11 millions people for 3 months. Sorry, but I just don't see the US completely shutting down NYC and LA for 3 months, no matter what.
The key has turned out to be the vaccines. Trump et al nailed that one with Warp Speed. The drug companies have been amazing. Huge talent, smarts and effort.
I don't give Trump a pass, and his messaging was mostly bad to horrible. However, my view is that the media and Dem mantra became let's blame Trump, but much or some of that was completely overblown. The federal government did many good things.
Listen to the science and scientists. Don't get me started there.
argh! said:
That's an odd take IMO. Fauci said "there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask." He said this before there was decent available data on asymptomatic spread (this is how science always works - you go with the current data). He's also said since then that with that data unknown, authorities were also mindful of preventing the general public from buying up masks that should be preferentially saved for healthcare workers, which - as we all remember the ridiculous toilet paper hoarding that happened early on - is a completely valid concern. The idiotic masses would have stockpiled more masks than they'd need in ten lifetimes. Hell, early on Berkeley was scrounging up all available N-95's in the research labs to take over to local hospitals.
Anyways, not sure if this applies to you/ this is a more general tangent, but many people expect science to just "know" right from the beginning. These people get uber-frustrated with changing prediction models. But that's just not how it works.
Berkeley_Griz said:
but it has been shown in the past that masks do work - get a video of any emergency room pre-virus, the proof will be there. i believe that fauci eventually admitted he lied to the public, said it was to protect the supply of ppe for hospitals. i'll do a quick search and see if i can find a link.
argh! said:
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks
and here is the key line: "He also acknowledged that masks were initially not recommended to the general public so that first responders wouldn’t feel the strain of a shortage of PPE."
Berkeley_Griz said:
"Science" maybe doesn't know right from the beginning, but it ought not to miss by orders of magnitude. At the beginning of this, "science" and modeling was predicting millions of deaths in America by this point. Now obviously 300,000+ deaths is meaningful, but might different decisions have been made if we'd have know they were off by an order of magnitude? THAT is how you end up with a pandemic when one really wasn't necessary.
And there IS no reason to be walking around with a mask if you're not sick or your asymptomatic. Until we as Americans decide to take back our country we will continue to sink further and further down this hellhole until there will be no turning back.
Now they are saying Asymptomatic people don't spread it. On the same link, they are saying they do. Agenda driven.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=covid+not+asymptomatic&df=w&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=covid+not+asymptomatic&df=w&ia=web
MissoulaMarinerFan
Well-known member
Htowngriz said:
DuckDuckGo is just another search engine. If you google searched the same key words he did, you'd wind the same thing.
Berkeley_Griz said:
I agree with your post, especially the last para. And that is another reason that the mantra of "listen/believe the scientists" ridiculous. Science evolves, grows and learns, especially in a situation like the present one. Also, all scientists don't agree on everything. While leaders should seek advice from scientists, of course, our system is set up for leaders to make decisions. Science is only one component of decision-making.
Htowngriz said:
exactly. countries where everyone wore a mask haven't been hit nearly as bad. the main idea, obviously, is to stop people from spreading, but there is some protection from wearing them. every hospital and doctor's office will require you to wear one when you go there, and every person working there will wear one. i'm a scientist myself, and it's such a common sense thing it baffles me how people want to work so hard to deny they work. we got some the day after wuhan shut down, because we know people in china, and the info coming from them was that it was a lot worse than the ccp was saying. even if you doubt it, shouldn't you wear one at least when you are in public, in case you are wrong? also, to change the subject a little, fauci told a bald-faced lie, and admitted it. a respectable human being would have told the truth, and explained the situation. that is my view, anyway.