CV Griz Fan said:
IdaGriz01 said:
Back on the main topic ... there was one itsy-bitsy negative that came out of the Ali boxing era. And I go way back into the Fifties as a boxing fan, so I have a good basis for my statement. Ali was supremely gifted as an athlete -- he could have excelled at any number of sports if he'd been given the opportunity (of course, he wasn't). So he damn near ruined a whole generation of (would-be) boxers who tried to emulate his style and techniques without having the ability, and guts, to pull it off.
Even now, you see guys who must have viewed the old Ali videos and want to fight his way. Not many have the necessary ability and usually get their clock cleaned before they wise up.
It depends on what you mean by "style and techniques". Ali was a "stick and move" guy with a great jab and excellent counter punch ability. He had the knock out power when he needed it too. Many black fighters were successful at that style in the '70's and beyond. SRL certainly comes to mind. As far as the "getting in your head" part and the "showmanship" I'd agree with you, they broke the mold after him.
Yes, Ali was a "stick and move" guy with a busy jab that set up multi-punch flurries ... which were his real strength, especially -- as you say -- in a counter-punch mode. And, yes, he could "sit down on his punches" to get his opponents respect. But, blasphemous as it may sound in the current euphoria, Ali's boxing skills included a number of key flaws -- I can give you web addresses that discuss those flaws in detail if you're interested. In summary: (1) He kept his hands low ... which he could get away with early in his career because he had incredible reflexes. Later in his career, he overcame that with his amazing toughness and ability to take a punch (not a good thing, BTW). FWIW, Larry Holmes had a "great" jab ... way better that Ali''s as an offensive weapon. (2) In moving away from an opponent's offense, he too often went straight back. That's how Joe Frazier blasted him totally on his ass with a lunging left hook that a more technically sound fighter might have avoided. (3) The "rope-a-dope" only worked because (again) Ali was tough as nails, both in terms of body and his ability to take a punch. Others who tried that damn near got their heads taken off.
As for the "many" black fighters who succeeded imitating Ali's approach, I respectfully disagree. First, far more did not, or had to unlearn a lot of bad habits before they became successful. Second, those few who did succeed with an Ali style (like SRL, whom you mention) were all at the lighter weights and were also highly gifted athletically. I'd have to dig in some history to identify any light-heavyweight and up fighters who had any long-term success emulating Ali (a couple of names tickle in the back of my brain, but I can't quite dredge them up).
Of course, on the last points -- we're in total agreement. About the only name that immediately comes to mind along those lines was Hector "Macho" Camacho. Camacho had very good fighting skills -- perhaps not "outstanding," but he was tough -- but put on one of the best shows in boxing entering the ring, and could definitely get in his opponents head with his mugging, prancing, etc.
Aside: Does anyone else find it ironic that boxing has always -- and still -- drawn criticism for how it's based on one man (and now woman) hurting another man (or woman) ... and yet no one seems to be upset by the "Ultimate Fighting Championship" stuff, where guys get kicked, pounded when they're down, and so on? Weird.
ray: ...