Mover-Ups Doing Well

[AZGrizFan]

Be nice AZ. When people don't agree with you it doesn't necessarily mean you are the one who is right. You can have differing opinions and still be respectful. Remember, an open dialogue can be a healthy thing. After all, this is a message board.

Agreed. I was talking about the ones who were NOT being nice, and refused to read the thread for context before barging in. And while there's probably LOTS of reasons why a move up may not be feasible, our university's location in Missoula, Montana ain't one of them.

 

[Blue Tears]

I got ya. Thanks for the explanation and the dialogue. It has definitely made me think about both sides of the debate.

 

[UTGrizFan]

There is literally no reason for the MWC to expand into Montana. The Griz would be diluting the money available on their current TV contract. Speaking of dilution, more teams moving up means the lower-tier of FBS gets worse as recruits who were solid at the FCS level get their asses handed to them by FBS programs with more elite recruits.

There's plenty of reasons for the MWC to consider Montana and Montana State, primarily when the conference realignment shenanigans occur again. Anyone who thinks that the Big 12 or even the Pac-12 are done expanding are the ones living a pipe dream, all it will take is for the Big 12 to be left out of the playoffs again for it to occur. And when this happens it will be the prime time for Montana to potentially move up. As I listed earlier:

-Boise State: Always a team worth mentioning for potential expansion to a larger conference, if they ever get their academics up to par they would be a serious contender for both the Pac and Big 12

-Colorado State: Have started seriously investing money into upgrading facilities to appear more attractive to larger conferences. Have an attractive market being close to Denver and would make a good fit in the Big 12 regionally and a rival in the PAC 12.

-Hawaii: Due to dire straits with their football program in regards to finances they may be forced to drop football all together or become an Independent.

If any or all of these scenarios were to occur Montana, Montana State and even Idaho would be considered as good options to replace them. The only other schools that remotely make any sense would be teams like New Mexico State and Texas State, however it appears that both are happy being in the Sun Belt Conference.

 

[AZGrizFan]

There is literally no reason for the MWC to expand into Montana. The Griz would be diluting the money available on their current TV contract. Speaking of dilution, more teams moving up means the lower-tier of FBS gets worse as recruits who were solid at the FCS level get their asses handed to them by FBS programs with more elite recruits.

There's plenty of reasons for the MWC to consider Montana and Montana State, primarily when the conference realignment shenanigans occur again. Anyone who thinks that the Big 12 or even the Pac-12 are done expanding are the ones living a pipe dream, all it will take is for the Big 12 to be left out of the playoffs again for it to occur. And when this happens it will be the prime time for Montana to potentially move up. As I listed earlier:

-Boise State: Always a team worth mentioning for potential expansion to a larger conference, if they ever get their academics up to par they would be a serious contender for both the Pac and Big 12

-Colorado State: Have started seriously investing money into upgrading facilities to appear more attractive to larger conferences. Have an attractive market being close to Denver and would make a good fit in the Big 12 regionally and a rival in the PAC 12.

-Hawaii: Due to dire straits with their football program in regards to finances they may be forced to drop football all together or become an Independent.

If any or all of these scenarios were to occur Montana, Montana State and even Idaho would be considered as good options to replace them. The only other schools that remotely make any sense would be teams like New Mexico State and Texas State, however it appears that both are happy being in the Sun Belt Conference.

Any team West of the Mississippi that claims to be "happy" in the Sun Belt should have their heads examined.

 

[SoldierGriz]

I love Missoula as well. It is a great place. But what is preferable to us is not always great for a kid who would be venturing 2000 miles from home. If people grow up in an area, they are more likely to want to stay around that general place. That is why we don't recruit in Florida much any more even though it is an extremely fertile ground for football players. The cold up here is not the best recruiting tool generally either. I love Montana, but not all kids in warmer climates or other areas are going to choose us over comparable offers close to home. We can out recruit Sac State etc because we have facilities and tradition. We have neither of those as an advantage if we move up. Just my two cents. I appreciate you guys and your opinions. It helps for me to see the other side of things as well. I just happen to disagree on this particular topic.

New recent Griz offer to a Florida kid...and I wonder how all those Arizona/Cali recruits on our current roster are managing in the Montana cold so far away from home? With the additional scholarships, and FBS designation...we open the aperture to a whole new level of recruit. What we do now in recruiting does not equal what we could and would do at the next level. If we build it, many will come.

 

[NavyBlue]

There is literally no reason for the MWC to expand into Montana. The Griz would be diluting the money available on their current TV contract. Speaking of dilution, more teams moving up means the lower-tier of FBS gets worse as recruits who were solid at the FCS level get their asses handed to them by FBS programs with more elite recruits.

There's plenty of reasons for the MWC to consider Montana and Montana State, primarily when the conference realignment shenanigans occur again. Anyone who thinks that the Big 12 or even the Pac-12 are done expanding are the ones living a pipe dream, all it will take is for the Big 12 to be left out of the playoffs again for it to occur. And when this happens it will be the prime time for Montana to potentially move up. As I listed earlier:

-Boise State: Always a team worth mentioning for potential expansion to a larger conference, if they ever get their academics up to par they would be a serious contender for both the Pac and Big 12

-Colorado State: Have started seriously investing money into upgrading facilities to appear more attractive to larger conferences. Have an attractive market being close to Denver and would make a good fit in the Big 12 regionally and a rival in the PAC 12.

-Hawaii: Due to dire straits with their football program in regards to finances they may be forced to drop football all together or become an Independent.

If any or all of these scenarios were to occur Montana, Montana State and even Idaho would be considered as good options to replace them. The only other schools that remotely make any sense would be teams like New Mexico State and Texas State, however it appears that both are happy being in the Sun Belt Conference.

Any team West of the Mississippi that claims to be "happy" in the Sun Belt should have their heads examined.

Idaho and New Mexico State would join the MWC in a New York minute if they had the opportunity. That said, the MWC might hold their nose and invite NMSU if they had to, but I would be willing to bet they MWC would rather have UM over Idaho.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I love Missoula as well. It is a great place. But what is preferable to us is not always great for a kid who would be venturing 2000 miles from home. If people grow up in an area, they are more likely to want to stay around that general place. That is why we don't recruit in Florida much any more even though it is an extremely fertile ground for football players. The cold up here is not the best recruiting tool generally either. I love Montana, but not all kids in warmer climates or other areas are going to choose us over comparable offers close to home. We can out recruit Sac State etc because we have facilities and tradition. We have neither of those as an advantage if we move up. Just my two cents. I appreciate you guys and your opinions. It helps for me to see the other side of things as well. I just happen to disagree on this particular topic.

New recent Griz offer to a Florida kid...and I wonder how all those Arizona/Cali recruits on our current roster are managing in the Montana cold so far away from home? With the additional scholarships, and FBS designation...we open the aperture to a whole new level of recruit. What we do now in recruiting does not equal what we could and would do at the next level. If we build it, many will come.

Yeah. Imagine if we didn't have such crappy weather we'd have been able to get kids like Justin Green, Jimmy Wilson, Trumaine Johnson, Dan Moore, William Poehls, etc., etc. Wouldn't that be nice? Damn that weather...

 

[Blue Tears]

Those players you mentioned I don't believe had comparable offers to a higher level school. We can currently get great players at our level when other similar schools offer, but when you go MWC, you need to up your recruiting game and if you don't think the weather matters somewhat, you are kidding yourself. I love getting the Arizona and California kids too, but they come to Montana cuz of our tradition and wonderful stadium. It is generally not helpful to have brutal winters when recruiting a young kid who hails from a warm weather region. If they have a similar offer to a comparable school, they usually will stay closer to home. Hauck did a great job finding Tru as I think he was only a one star by scout. I love Montana and it's weather included, but it usually doesn't do us many favors in recruiting.

 

[Blue Tears]

I would love to get the kid from Florida, but if he gets a similar offer from a comparable southern school, it may be an up hill battle. Justin Green us a great recruiter though, so if someone can do it, I believe it would be him.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Those players you mentioned I don't believe had comparable offers to a higher level school. We can currently get great players at our level when other similar schools offer, but when you go MWC, you need to up your recruiting game and if you don't think the weather matters somewhat, you are kidding yourself. I love getting the Arizona and California kids too, but they come to Montana cuz of our tradition and wonderful stadium. It is generally not helpful to have brutal winters when recruiting a young kid who hails from a warm weather region. If they have a similar offer to a comparable school, they usually will stay closer to home. Hauck did a great job finding Tru as I think he was only a one star by scout. I love Montana and it's weather included, but it usually doesn't do us many favors in recruiting.

Doesn't stop Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan State, Penn State, Pitt, etc., etc., etc. Weather is an excuse, not a factor.

Oh, and Green actually transferred here. From SDSU. I would consider that an offer from a warm weather school.

 

[SoldierGriz]

Those players you mentioned I don't believe had comparable offers to a higher level school. We can currently get great players at our level when other similar schools offer, but when you go MWC, you need to up your recruiting game and if you don't think the weather matters somewhat, you are kidding yourself. I love getting the Arizona and California kids too, but they come to Montana cuz of our tradition and wonderful stadium. It is generally not helpful to have brutal winters when recruiting a young kid who hails from a warm weather region. If they have a similar offer to a comparable school, they usually will stay closer to home. Hauck did a great job finding Tru as I think he was only a one star by scout. I love Montana and it's weather included, but it usually doesn't do us many favors in recruiting.

These things do not change with a move up...tradition remains...stadium remains. The thing that does change is we would be an FBS school. This alone completely changes the recruiting dynamics.

Look, I don't think this will happen. Those in the current administration do not have the ability to think big. They can't even evolve the academic landscape to accommodate 21st century economic requirements...think STEM. How is our enrollment? We need new academic programs - think big - Medical School/biomedical engineering/advanced coding-like big.

We can and probably will stay in this comfort zone we call FCS and the Big Sky, and we will find ourselves on the wrong side of the continuing college football revolution. The Big 5 will stand alone with a new and very different NCAA-like governing body. They will slowly transition to an expanded playoff generating billions and billions of dollars. The other FBS conferences will solidify a tier lower...and work to negotiate an occasional "winner" into the post season play. It wont happen, but it will be full of drama. "Those Big 5 schools wont play Temple this year because they are scared of them." The FCS will be the equivalent D2/D3/NAIA football in some form. We will have our playoffs - they will be fun. They won't make relative money - no one will care. That is where we will end up. We will sit idle and get left behind. Think our academic enrollment is trending downward? See what happens to our football program if we sit on our hands.

But, we can talk about population and weather some more if you'd like.

 

[Blue Tears]

Those players you mentioned I don't believe had comparable offers to a higher level school. We can currently get great players at our level when other similar schools offer, but when you go MWC, you need to up your recruiting game and if you don't think the weather matters somewhat, you are kidding yourself. I love getting the Arizona and California kids too, but they come to Montana cuz of our tradition and wonderful stadium. It is generally not helpful to have brutal winters when recruiting a young kid who hails from a warm weather region. If they have a similar offer to a comparable school, they usually will stay closer to home. Hauck did a great job finding Tru as I think he was only a one star by scout. I love Montana and it's weather included, but it usually doesn't do us many favors in recruiting.

Doesn't stop Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan State, Penn State, Pitt, etc., etc., etc. Weather is an excuse, not a factor.

Oh, and Green actually transferred here. From SDSU. I would consider that an offer from a warm weather school.

Justin Green left SDSU and went to SD Mesa College and then to UM. He wasn't getting pt with the Aztecs. We weren't competing for his services. Those schools you mentioned are BIG TIME FBS schools with a huge FBS tradition. Kids are willing to play there because of their tradition and winning. They also have much bigger population centers around their colleges. The Griz have BIG TIME FCS tradition and therefore are able to snag recruits away from comparable schools. The point I was illustrating and thanks for inadvertently backing it up was that we get recruits (just like OSU and Mich. St. at their level) not because of our weather but because of the TRADITION of WINNING we have at UM. If we move up, we would start over. Hopefully we would win, but we wouldn't have the selling point of a winning tradition against the schools we would be playing. Our opponents would be established in the league and have bigger population centers in their area for recruiting and comparable if not better facilities. Our advantages would no longer exist like they do in FCS.

 

[Blue Tears]

Interesting predictions. I prefer to only speculate on topics that have a past history or something more concrete to comment on, so I won't say much about FCS turning into D3. Time will certainly tell us the story. As far as legacy and the past to sell in recruiting, our winning tradition is in FCS. Do you honestly think that a recruit is going to be swayed in recruiting vs Boise or UW when say we won the Big Sky conference 6 years ago and have a great FCS tradition. That won't mean much at the next level. According to you guys, FCS football is an after thought anyway. Now, you insist that our tradition that was established in FCS will matter to recruits. You can't have it both ways. In order to get high school players over peer schools, you need to have something they don't. Do you honestly think that it was a coincidence that UM football turned around when Wash Griz was built. We then had something the others did not. If we move, we lose our advantages because most of the others have wonderful facilities and an established track record. If we could move to the MWC and do well, that would be wonderful, but I will be cheering for the Griz even if they didn't. I just think our best chance to win games and compete for titles is in FCS. I believe there is areal possibility of UM football returning to the dark days if we move, and I am certainly allowed that opinion considering Soldiers assumptions and predictions considering the direction FCS is headed. Who knows, it will need to play out. Just my 2 cents.

 

[tnt]

GOOD programs rise to the level of their competition. Sadly they often fall to the level of their competition as well. The Griz will do fine where ever they go.

I spent 11 years following my daughter through HS, college and the pro tour (tennis) I can not remember a blow out EVER in all of those years. She even split Sets with Venus back in the day. She also split sets with me. I don't understand the psychology, I'm not sure anyone does except a great coach and staff.

I like where we are at, but honestly I have no worries about being competitive where ever we go. We need to compete however with the same schools for whom we compete with for students. Until we fix our academics and raise those standards, we will never get there. Once we fix main hall and invest in faculty instead of a parade of adjuncts, we won't get there.

 

[Blue Tears]

Interesting take TNT. Sports psychology is certainly a difficult thing to understand. The reason she probably only split sets with you though is that she felt like taking it easy on good old Dad

 

[marceagfan5]

Interesting predictions. I prefer to only speculate on topics that have a past history or something more concrete to comment on, so I won't say much about FCS turning into D3. Time will certainly tell us the story. As far as legacy and the past to sell in recruiting, our winning tradition is in FCS. Do you honestly think that a recruit is going to be swayed in recruiting vs Boise or UW when say we won the Big Sky conference 6 years ago and have a great FCS tradition. That won't mean much at the next level. According to you guys, FCS football is an after thought anyway. Now, you insist that our tradition that was established in FCS will matter to recruits. You can't have it both ways. In order to get high school players over peer schools, you need to have something they don't. Do you honestly think that it was a coincidence that UM football turned around when Wash Griz was built. We then had something the others did not. If we move, we lose our advantages because most of the others have wonderful facilities and an established track record. If we could move to the MWC and do well, that would be wonderful, but I will be cheering for the Griz even if they didn't. I just think our best chance to win games and compete for titles is in FCS. I believe there is areal possibility of UM football returning to the dark days if we move, and I am certainly allowed that opinion considering Soldiers assumptions and predictions considering the direction FCS is headed. Who knows, it will need to play out. Just my 2 cents.

No one knows what will happen in the next few years, but the divisions do appear to be headed towards another shift. Its going to be the Power 5, the other 5, and then FCS, it somewhat is already, but there will probably be a more distinct line drawn.

Is it really going to be fun winning national championships at the FCS level when you are beating Coastal Carolina or Chattanooga? Hell, even those teams are probably looking at moving up. The problem with staying put in the FCS is a lot of the good teams are moving up, leaving the FCS as a level that isn't very good. There are probably only 20-25 legitimate teams at this level right now as it is and a few of the top ones would love a chance to move up.

As far as recruiting, it is what it is. The Power schools in cold weather climates get recruits, Ohio State won the chipper last year. Having the FBS behind your name is going to be a huge step in recruiting and it opens the door to better recruits and a lot more of them.

The problem I see with the nay-sayers for moving up is they are dwelling a lot more on the possibility of failure rather than looking at the huge opportunity for success on a much bigger stage. Yes, there is a possibility of failure, but Griz fans have shown the past 5 years they will support the team regardless. There is also a huge opportunity for success...

 

[SoldierGriz]

Interesting predictions. I prefer to only speculate on topics that have a past history or something more concrete to comment on, so I won't say much about FCS turning into D3. Time will certainly tell us the story. As far as legacy and the past to sell in recruiting, our winning tradition is in FCS. Do you honestly think that a recruit is going to be swayed in recruiting vs Boise or UW when say we won the Big Sky conference 6 years ago and have a great FCS tradition. That won't mean much at the next level. According to you guys, FCS football is an after thought anyway. Now, you insist that our tradition that was established in FCS will matter to recruits. You can't have it both ways. In order to get high school players over peer schools, you need to have something they don't. Do you honestly think that it was a coincidence that UM football turned around when Wash Griz was built. We then had something the others did not. If we move, we lose our advantages because most of the others have wonderful facilities and an established track record. If we could move to the MWC and do well, that would be wonderful, but I will be cheering for the Griz even if they didn't. I just think our best chance to win games and compete for titles is in FCS. I believe there is areal possibility of UM football returning to the dark days if we move, and I am certainly allowed that opinion considering Soldiers assumptions and predictions considering the direction FCS is headed. Who knows, it will need to play out. Just my 2 cents.

No one knows what will happen in the next few years, but the divisions do appear to be headed towards another shift. Its going to be the Power 5, the other 5, and then FCS, it somewhat is already, but there will probably be a more distinct line drawn.

Is it really going to be fun winning national championships at the FCS level when you are beating Coastal Carolina or Chattanooga? Hell, even those teams are probably looking at moving up. The problem with staying put in the FCS is a lot of the good teams are moving up, leaving the FCS as a level that isn't very good. There are probably only 20-25 legitimate teams at this level right now as it is and a few of the top ones would love a chance to move up.

As far as recruiting, it is what it is. The Power schools in cold weather climates get recruits, Ohio State won the chipper last year. Having the FBS behind your name is going to be a huge step in recruiting and it opens the door to better recruits and a lot more of them.

The problem I see with the nay-sayers for moving up is they are dwelling a lot more on the possibility of failure rather than looking at the huge opportunity for success on a much bigger stage. Yes, there is a possibility of failure, but Griz fans have shown the past 5 years they will support the team regardless. There is also a huge opportunity for success...

This is exactly the problem. Current Admin has neither the courage nor the vision to pursue excellence in objectives beyond the next. They dream small.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Justin Green left SDSU and went to SD Mesa College and then to UM. He wasn't getting pt with the Aztecs. We weren't competing for his services. Those schools you mentioned are BIG TIME FBS schools with a huge FBS tradition. Kids are willing to play there because of their tradition and winning. They also have much bigger population centers around their colleges. The Griz have BIG TIME FCS tradition and therefore are able to snag recruits away from comparable schools. The point I was illustrating and thanks for inadvertently backing it up was that we get recruits (just like OSU and Mich. St. at their level) not because of our weather but because of the TRADITION of WINNING we have at UM. If we move up, we would start over. Hopefully we would win, but we wouldn't have the selling point of a winning tradition against the schools we would be playing. Our opponents would be established in the league and have bigger population centers in their area for recruiting and comparable if not better facilities. Our advantages would no longer exist like they do in FCS.

Yep. Change is tough.

But if you're not moving forward, you're falling behind. We're falling behind. SoldierGriz's post above absolutely nails it.

 

[Blue Tears]

I am not sure my beloved Griz or your Eagles could beat CCU right now, so lets not put them down. Maybe moving up and beyond is the thing to do, but I don't see it right now. That doesn't mean things couldn't change that would alter my way of thinking.

 

[Grizbeer]

Is it really going to be fun winning national championships at the FCS level when you are beating Coastal Carolina or Chattanooga? Hell, even those teams are probably looking at moving up. The problem with staying put in the FCS is a lot of the good teams are moving up, leaving the FCS as a level that isn't very good. There are probably only 20-25 legitimate teams at this level right now as it is and a few of the top ones would love a chance to move up.

Coastal has already accepted an invitation to join the Sun Belt, so unless it is this year the window to play them in a National Championship is closing.