Mover-Ups Doing Well

[AZGrizFan]

We could become the Idaho like team of the Big Sky or maybe more like Northern Colorado if we don't begin recruiting OL, running backs and along the way, teach someone how to return kicks and punts. Seriously, I am concerned that our program is on the edge of possible disaster if some serious planning doesn't begin now by our AD and coaching staff.

Spanky I know you're always worried about this but look at what Montana has:

- One of the largest stadiums in the FCS with regular peak attendance
- A new academic center
- Breaking ground on a massive new weight and locker room
- Stronger (but could be better) salaries for coaches
- Solid scholarship support base for the current level of provided scholarships
- Football program way in the black financially
- A fanbase that will demand success and won't be happy with mediocre seasons

It all adds up to being able to right the ship pretty quickly if things don't go well. We're not like the bottom half of the FCS.

And ironically, with all those things we're not like the TOP half of the FCS either.

That response requires an explanation if you want anyone to understand it.

If they don't understand it no amount of explaining will help them. :lol:

 

[UTGrizFan]

(SORRY FOR THE LONG POST!)
I have to agree with what several other people have been saying on this board already, its time for us to move on up to the FBS. Granted I understand the concerns that many have about moving up however when looking at the situation I think that we could do really well based on a few factors:

-If we move up we will not join the "Sunbelt" but rather the Mountain West Conference. Currently they sit at 12 schools so its not out of the question they may want to add x2 more in the future.

-Realignment shenanigans may be what triggers it as there are a few scenarios that are rumored to occur. The Big 12 could raid a MWC School (Colorado State), the Pac12 may decide to go to 14 teams or even Hawaii may be forced to drop football or go Independant (having sever financial issues).

-If the Mountain West decided to expand to 14 Schools it would be a pretty good looking league with:

Mountain Division:
-Montana
-Montanan State
-Utah State
-Boise State (*Conference Expansion Option*)
-Wyoming
-Colorado state (*Conference Expansion Option*)
-Air Force

West Division:
-Nevada
-SJSU
-SDSU
-Fresno State
-UNLV
-Hawaii (*Potentially going Independent or Dropping Football*)
-New Mexico

(*If any of these teams were to leave would open the doors to teams like NDSU, SDSU and Idaho to join the conference. From what ive been reading apparently NMSU likes being in the Sunbelt*).

Would be a nice change of pace to watch Montana play Utah State, Wyoming and even schedule old rival Idaho on a regular basis. Also we would never have issues with scheduling as we would have x8 Conference games every season meaning we could get x1 Money game (vs PAC12), x1 FCS game (Big Sky) and a non conference game (Idaho for Rivalry game).

Also there is the scenario that was talked about earlier this year where Fullerton was considering having the Big Sky Conference have both an FBS and FCS Conference for Football which would be pretty interesting as there would be potential to add teams as Football only members such as SDSU and NDSU but I see the MWC option as more likely.

 

[Buttegrizzle]

If App State, Marshall, GS, and the rest were still FCS it would be a viable level. But soon it will be nothing left but the dreggs and who gives a damn if we beat East fricking Tennesee State or whatever. The point is the NCAA has FCS on life support and the hand is on the plug. There is only about 25-30 teams left that even matter.

 

[polsongrizz]

Oh man, some day I wish we could be sun belt champions and maybe, just maybe we could play and beat the 7th place finisher of the Big 12 in the GlaxoSmithKline Bowl played ever December 19th at 11pm MST!

Beats playing 90% of the teams we play every f***[*] year.

Sure it does...

Polsongriz, I cant exactly explain why, but when ever I see your posts, I get the impression you spend a lot of time sitting behind a computer spankin the monkey.
Back on track, I would much rather see us win at least 80% of our games vs. move-up, but if we are going to be in the middle, then if feasible, I would prefer occasional winning seasons and occasional bowl games. The last few years have been kind of frustrating due to our inept presidents actions. I am hoping we will be back to 80% plus with Stitt. I believe it will happen soon as in next year.

Good for you, keep up the great work. BTW, quit thinking of me, its kind of creepy.

 

[grizindabox]

Don't look now....the Vandals have won 2 in a row....

 

[kemajic]

but I see the MWC option as more likely.

It doesn't hurt to dream, but the MT schools are not at the top of the list for replacement or expansion of the MWC, even if the MT schools had the fortitude. There are bigger fish lined up, most already FBS.

 

[IdaGriz01]

Don't look now....the Vandals have won 2 in a row....

Yep, Idaho finally found two more weak sisters to beat. :?

Their three wins have been against Wofford (3-5, not a strong FCS) and two teams with a combined 3-11 record. Still, that puts them fourth in the Sun Belt. And, believe it or not, they could actually get bowl eligible.

They have two pretty sure losses: App State (6-1) and FBS Auburn. But they also face three opponents with combined records of 5-15, one of which is 0-7 NMSU. Now, I’m not saying they can win those three. But those games are winnable, giving the Vandals 6 wins. That's all they need, since they're now allowed, for sure, to count one FCS win toward eligibility. (As I understand it, FBS teams can also count a second FCS win, but there are some sort of strings attached. :roll: )

 

[Blue Tears]

Hammer and Brint, what's the use even arguing with the move-up crowd anymore? They will never care how much it costs, how many more women's sports would have to still be added, or how inferior our facilities and financial booster base are to the Boise's and Nevada's of the world. Ironically, I see some of the same people begging for a move up are the same people calling the Griz a medicore FCS program. An also-ran in the Big Sky, a terrible football team. But somehow, those people think the Griz could do better in the friggin' Mountain West Conference???? It's a hilarious contradiction.

Add in its the same people that are worked up about LearField and in-game advertisements. At the FBS level Montana would have to probably go to a whole new level of sports marketing to try to pay the bills.

On your point of added women's sports if I remember correctly due to Title 9 the amount of women's sports would have to be equal to the rough campus population. About a 60/40 ratio.

I understand the argument of, "We will play better teams."

What I never hear though is how we will afford it.

I couldn't care less about learfield, in-game advertisements, etc., etc. I challenge you to find one post from me on that subject. What's amazing to me, and since I'm not "in the know" with respect to college sports finances I'll have to take it at face value, is that despite our perception that we'd never be able to afford it, all those schools that do move up NEVER move back down. Never. Not once. How is that possible? How is it that EVERY school that has moved up has somehow magically figured out how to make it work financially, but Montana can't? I get that WE may not know how the institution could afford it, but for God's sake, SOMEBODY in the know should be able to
figure it out. It ain't rocket science.

Then we wouldn't have to worry ourselves about silly threads proposing home and homes with schools like Utah State, Colorado State or Boise State that NEVER are going to happen because FBS teams won't come to FCS teams' stadiums.

And if I see another post like this:

I agree with the logic of staying put. Really, how many teams have enjoyed the same success upon a move up? I can think of one, and that is Boise State. Most of the others have experienced many more losses than they had in FCS, and are no longer able to compete for a National Title. We would be a small fish and a really big pond. I like watching a team that wins. I would support the Griz either way, but the games are played to WIN. Personally, I could give a care less how many of the opposing team's fans show up for a game. If 7,000 attend and we win, that is much better than 60,000 and getting stomped. Losing stinks, and we don't have the facilities and program foundation right now to be like Boise and Nevada. I wish we did, but that is just not the reality of our situation.

or this:

Its easy they griz move to fbs and have 3 staright sub 500 seasons. The stadium will be at 8k fans. Students wont come...uts already hard enough to get them. The back half of the season is hunting season and many would choose to do that, front half has nice weather...many wil go out spending time with family. The griz dont have anything to support a 6-6 or worse team every year and hoping to play in a shitty bowl game at 11 am on a tuesday. It just wont happen get over your dream

I think I'm going to puke. If there TRULY are that many fair-weather fans, then this program has a LOT more to worry about than whether it wants to move up or not.

I clearly stated that I would support the Griz either way so I am definitely not a fair weather fan (no need to throw up), but the simple FACT is more teams who move up have overall losing records than those with winning ones. I do (as is consistent with most people) like watching a good team. Why should anyone need to apologize for wanting their team to secure victories? I would dare to ask what kind of fan enjoys a 5-6 season more than 10-2. One could make an argument that if winning more games doesn't matter to someone, then that individual would not be a true fan. Now, I certainly do think guys like AZ Griz are true fans. I know AZ loves the Griz just like myself. But, if people want to insinuate that certain fans are fair weather or not competitive because they like winning, I would ask what kind of fan is ok with setting their team up to lose more games. I realize that losing or winning isn't guaranteed by moving up, but history shows that teams moving up will experience a drop in their winning percentage, in some cases a significant drop. Now, would it be nice to see some other teams come to Wash Griz, sure it would, but lets be realistic that the big boys would not be coming any time soon. Now, I do understand that a possibility exists we could be the next Boise State, and that would be awesome. But an even greater chance exists that we would be FIU or North Texas. Either way, I would be cheering on my team, but I don't think a move is worth the risk at this time, especially considering the possible financial problems that could arise. Just my 2 cents.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I had a long, eloquent rebuttal typed out and my internet shit the bed, so it's your loss.

Suffice it to say I disagree with your assessment about our chances of success at the next level but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Sadly, we'll probably NEVER know the real answer as I don't believe there's anyone in the current administration with the vision to make a move-up even a remote possibility.

 

[IdaGriz01]

... Sadly, we'll probably NEVER know the real answer as I don't believe there's anyone in the current administration with the vision to make a move-up even a remote possibility.

Which is why I try to stay out of the move-up threads ... which are pretty much pointless. I do NOT know what possessed me to even use the term -- except that it seemed like a short, quick way to refer to a couple of former big-time Griz NC foes.

Oh well, carry on.

 

[Silvertip]

Myopic flatlanders are immune to the fact that in associating with the higher visibility FBS the benefits extend well beyond what happens on the field. The exposure gained from competing with one's actual peer institutions goes far in validating the school academically as well as athletically. Donations to the various departments increase - as happened even at UM with construction of an on-campus stadium and the resultant infrequent exposure on national TV. In sports as in life in general you're known by the company you keep and for the countless sports savvy millions living beyond the Bitterroots UM is viewed as being just another peanut in a mixed bag of Tier 3 commuter and/or DII orphans who've found shelter under the umbrella of the Big Sky. Think small. Be small.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Myopic flatlanders are immune to the fact that in associating with the higher visibility FBS the benefits extend well beyond what happens on the field. The exposure gained from competing with one's actual peer institutions goes far in validating the school academically as well as athletically. Donations to the various departments increase - as happened even at UM with construction of an on-campus stadium and the resultant infrequent exposure on national TV. In sports as in life in general you're known by the company you keep and for the countless sports savvy millions living beyond the Bitterroots UM is viewed as being just another peanut in a mixed bag of Tier 3 commuter and/or DII orphans who've found shelter under the umbrella of the Big Sky. Think small. Be small.

100% agree. I donate. But I can tell you I donate a lot less than I would if we were in a different position as an institution. Of course, there are those out there who insist that many of the big-time donors would donate less or none at all if we moved up....who knows the real truth?

 

[CV Griz Fan]

Hammer and Brint, what's the use even arguing with the move-up crowd anymore? They will never care how much it costs, how many more women's sports would have to still be added, or how inferior our facilities and financial booster base are to the Boise's and Nevada's of the world. Ironically, I see some of the same people begging for a move up are the same people calling the Griz a medicore FCS program. An also-ran in the Big Sky, a terrible football team. But somehow, those people think the Griz could do better in the friggin' Mountain West Conference???? It's a hilarious contradiction.

Add in its the same people that are worked up about LearField and in-game advertisements. At the FBS level Montana would have to probably go to a whole new level of sports marketing to try to pay the bills.

On your point of added women's sports if I remember correctly due to Title 9 the amount of women's sports would have to be equal to the rough campus population. About a 60/40 ratio.

I understand the argument of, "We will play better teams."

What I never hear though is how we will afford it.

I couldn't care less about learfield, in-game advertisements, etc., etc. I challenge you to find one post from me on that subject. What's amazing to me, and since I'm not "in the know" with respect to college sports finances I'll have to take it at face value, is that despite our perception that we'd never be able to afford it, all those schools that do move up NEVER move back down. Never. Not once. How is that possible? How is it that EVERY school that has moved up has somehow magically figured out how to make it work financially, but Montana can't? I get that WE may not know how the institution could afford it, but for God's sake, SOMEBODY in the know should be able to
figure it out. It ain't rocket science.

Then we wouldn't have to worry ourselves about silly threads proposing home and homes with schools like Utah State, Colorado State or Boise State that NEVER are going to happen because FBS teams won't come to FCS teams' stadiums.

And if I see another post like this:

I agree with the logic of staying put. Really, how many teams have enjoyed the same success upon a move up? I can think of one, and that is Boise State. Most of the others have experienced many more losses than they had in FCS, and are no longer able to compete for a National Title. We would be a small fish and a really big pond. I like watching a team that wins. I would support the Griz either way, but the games are played to WIN. Personally, I could give a care less how many of the opposing team's fans show up for a game. If 7,000 attend and we win, that is much better than 60,000 and getting stomped. Losing stinks, and we don't have the facilities and program foundation right now to be like Boise and Nevada. I wish we did, but that is just not the reality of our situation.

or this:

Its easy they griz move to fbs and have 3 staright sub 500 seasons. The stadium will be at 8k fans. Students wont come...uts already hard enough to get them. The back half of the season is hunting season and many would choose to do that, front half has nice weather...many wil go out spending time with family. The griz dont have anything to support a 6-6 or worse team every year and hoping to play in a shitty bowl game at 11 am on a tuesday. It just wont happen get over your dream

I think I'm going to puke. If there TRULY are that many fair-weather fans, then this program has a LOT more to worry about than whether it wants to move up or not.

I clearly stated that I would support the Griz either way so I am definitely not a fair weather fan (no need to throw up), but the simple FACT is more teams who move up have overall losing records than those with winning ones. I do (as is consistent with most people) like watching a good team. Why should anyone need to apologize for wanting their team to secure victories? I would dare to ask what kind of fan enjoys a 5-6 season more than 10-2. One could make an argument that if winning more games doesn't matter to someone, then that individual would not be a true fan. Now, I certainly do think guys like AZ Griz are true fans. I know AZ loves the Griz just like myself. But, if people want to insinuate that certain fans are fair weather or not competitive because they like winning, I would ask what kind of fan is ok with setting their team up to lose more games. I realize that losing or winning isn't guaranteed by moving up, but history shows that teams moving up will experience a drop in their winning percentage, in some cases a significant drop. Now, would it be nice to see some other teams come to Wash Griz, sure it would, but lets be realistic that the big boys would not be coming any time soon. Now, I do understand that a possibility exists we could be the next Boise State, and that would be awesome. But an even greater chance exists that we would be FIU or North Texas. Either way, I would be cheering on my team, but I don't think a move is worth the risk at this time, especially considering the possible financial problems that could arise. Just my 2 cents.

Isn't anybody tired of going 10-2 against scrub teams? Sorry, 8-3 or 7-4?

 

[Blue Tears]

I think it is a real insult to our current and former players to diminish their hard work and accomplishments by calling the competition second class. If you are good enough to play in the Big Sky, you are one heck of an athlete. Please have more respect for our players than that. They work their asses off to play for The Griz. As far as academics, if we want to get with more prestigious colleges, than maybe we should move down to play against Montana Tech. That is one heck of a fine school. We could move into the Ivy League, who also plays FCS football. You don't need to be FBS in football to teach your students well.

 

[CV Griz Fan]

I think it is a real insult to our current and former players to diminish their hard work and accomplishments by calling the competition second class. If you are good enough to play in the Big Sky, you are one heck of an athlete. Please have more respect for our players than that. They work their asses off to play for The Griz. As far as academics, if we want to get with more prestigious colleges, than maybe we should move down to play against Montana Tech. That is one heck of a fine school. We could move into the Ivy League, who also plays FCS football. You don't need to be FBS in football to teach your students well.

Your point was that fans would not like going 5-6 against better competition. I guess I just don't get the allure of going 10-2 against weaker competition. Or maybe I am not seeing what the difference is... I get the money side of not moving up. I get that there might not be a FBS conference that is interested on accepting the Griz as members. What I don't get is why playing and winning against a lower level of competition is desired. Especially when that level, the FCS, is on such uncertain footing. Yes UMs leadership is weak and doesn't have a great vision for the future. But Griz fans need to realize that a lack of action is just as risky as making a bold move forward....

 

[AZGrizFan]

I think it is a real insult to our current and former players to diminish their hard work and accomplishments by calling the competition second class. If you are good enough to play in the Big Sky, you are one heck of an athlete. Please have more respect for our players than that. They work their asses off to play for The Griz. As far as academics, if we want to get with more prestigious colleges, than maybe we should move down to play against Montana Tech. That is one heck of a fine school. We could move into the Ivy League, who also plays FCS football. You don't need to be FBS in football to teach your students well.

Here's the thing: I believe if you added 22 more scholarship players to our EXISTING TEAM, we'd be competitive RIGHT NOW. That's not a knock on our current or former players...that's a huge complement.

 

[CV Griz Fan]

I think it is a real insult to our current and former players to diminish their hard work and accomplishments by calling the competition second class. If you are good enough to play in the Big Sky, you are one heck of an athlete. Please have more respect for our players than that. They work their asses off to play for The Griz. As far as academics, if we want to get with more prestigious colleges, than maybe we should move down to play against Montana Tech. That is one heck of a fine school. We could move into the Ivy League, who also plays FCS football. You don't need to be FBS in football to teach your students well.

Here's the thing: I believe if you added 22 more scholarship players to our EXISTING TEAM, we'd be competitive RIGHT NOW. That's not a knock on our current or former players...that's a huge complement.

If the Griz went to the FBS, they'd attract better recruits IMO.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I think it is a real insult to our current and former players to diminish their hard work and accomplishments by calling the competition second class. If you are good enough to play in the Big Sky, you are one heck of an athlete. Please have more respect for our players than that. They work their asses off to play for The Griz. As far as academics, if we want to get with more prestigious colleges, than maybe we should move down to play against Montana Tech. That is one heck of a fine school. We could move into the Ivy League, who also plays FCS football. You don't need to be FBS in football to teach your students well.

Here's the thing: I believe if you added 22 more scholarship players to our EXISTING TEAM, we'd be competitive RIGHT NOW. That's not a knock on our current or former players...that's a huge complement.

If the Griz went to the FBS, they'd attract better recruits IMO.

One would hope.

 

[Blue Tears]

So I am gathering from you guys that playing at the top level of college football is truly the only thing that matters. If this is the case, playing in the Sun Belt or MWC is far from that. Honestly, if that is your criteria, cheer for Alabama or Oregon. I can guarantee that the big 10, big 12, pac 12 and sec view those mid major conferences as weak. So, you move up and still aren't much of a thought. I bet that most people around the country don't even realize the Georgia southern is now FBS, nor do they care. Honestly, why should they? If you are looking for respect around the nation and football at these lower levels is just second class or interior to you, then why do they play? They play because it means something to the people who live there. Who cares what these in the South feel about the Griz? They are special because they matter to us and will remain that to me whatever level they play.

 

[CV Griz Fan]

So I am gathering from you guys that playing at the top level of college football is truly the only thing that matters. If this is the case, playing in the Sun Belt or MWC is far from that. Honestly, if that is your criteria, cheer for Alabama or Oregon. I can guarantee that the big 10, big 12, pac 12 and sec view those mid major conferences as weak. So, you move up and still aren't much of a thought. I bet that most people around the country don't even realize the Georgia southern is now FBS, nor do they care. Honestly, why should they? If you are looking for respect around the nation and football at these lower levels is just second class or interior to you, then why do they play? They play because it means something to the people who live there. Who cares what these in the South feel about the Griz? They are special because they matter to us and will remain that to me whatever level they play.

Sorry but you specifically said "what kind of fan enjoys a 5-6 record over a 10-2 record. I have no problem with you preferring that the Griz continue to play the weaker teams to get a 10-2 record like you said. If that's what you want, go for it. Also, just because the SEC looks down on the MWC, that doesn't mean it's not a good step up for the Griz. BTW, if the Griz could win even more, would you support
a move down to D2?