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Montana vs PSU

i do love the griz said:
Like I've already said too, the switch from quarters to semesters didn't help, having the students gone. When they packed the house, students were already here for school.

That is a valid point. But I suspect there are plenty of other places where this is the case, and Gonzaga is one of them.

I also agree that it would be very difficult at this juncture (think Dana Carvey when you pronounce that word) to move the students back to their rightful location. This just exemplifies how monumental of a blunder that truly was. In order to save money, in my opinion, the UM administration ended up costing money. More people would go to games if the field house environment was better. Face it, with the exception of a few games each season, the basketball atmosphere is boring, sterile and uninspiring. Even the Weber game last season was a disappointment. And no amount of "dash for cash" or other promotions will change that.

But beer would help.
 
Grizbeer said:
The decline in attendance started well before the remodel of Dahlberg. Attendance started dropping in the late '80's (coincidentally with the passage of the 21 minimum drinking age?), bumped up again in the early '90's, then went downhill fast starting with the 96-97 season (when Idaho and Boise State left, and football had won a NC). The remodel was an attempt to try to reverse the trend in declining attendance, with the thought that an more modern, intimate setting would boost attendance. Moving the students was a way to pay for the remodel by bringing in booster money for premium seats. It didn't work and by 2001 UM was very worried about basketball attendance
http://www.cas.umt.edu/dcs/faculty/sillars/comm460/reports/Griz%20basketball.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the University and athletics department has tried in vain since to get the students interested again, but nothing works. They have tried bribing, threatening, cajoling, begging and whining, but nothing works. the students just are not interested in the program.

Also, for the record, Heathcote was in his mid-40's when he took over the program, not really an old man.

Good points. College basketball's decline was a nationwide trend, and was not unique to Missoula.

But here's the thing. Would students be interested again if we were a top twenty team? I think so. And how do we make that happen? We invest in the program. We increase our recruiting budgets dramatically. We go after private money. We sell beer. Whatever it takes, we do it. But it has to be a priority for the school.
 
AllWeatherFan said:
i do love the griz said:
Like I've already said too, the switch from quarters to semesters didn't help, having the students gone. When they packed the house, students were already here for school.

That is a valid point. But I suspect there are plenty of other places where this is the case, and Gonzaga is one of them.

I also agree that it would be very difficult at this juncture (think Dana Carvey when you pronounce that word) to move the students back to their rightful location. This just exemplifies how monumental of a blunder that truly was. In order to save money, in my opinion, the UM administration ended up costing money. More people would go to games if the field house environment was better. Face it, with the exception of a few games each season, the basketball atmosphere is boring, sterile and uninspiring. Even the Weber game last season was a disappointment. And no amount of "dash for cash" or other promotions will change that.

But beer would help.
beer sales would be a boost, but with the new boss in Main Hall and our AD quite unlikely....if they were the captains of the TITANIC they would have drilled holes in the hull to let the water out!
 
Great trivia question - Who is the only coach to win 2 NCAA national championships in 2 different sports?

Jud Heathcote - Mich. St. basketball and Montana handball. :clap: :thumb: 8-)
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Good points. College basketball's decline was a nationwide trend, and was not unique to Missoula.

But here's the thing. Would students be interested again if we were a top twenty team? I think so. And how do we make that happen? We invest in the program. We increase our recruiting budgets dramatically. We go after private money. We sell beer. Whatever it takes, we do it. But it has to be a priority for the school.
I agree AWF, priority and investment are the key. Start with scheduling a ranked team or 2 in Missoula, give the Griz a chance to pull off a couple big upsets. Provide guarantee money to get better teams here. Finance it with a beer garden in the WAG every game to start. Start a fund specifically to improve the scheduling and recruiting for basketball. Just do something besides complain and beg and the silly promotions they do now which make the program seem so desperate I think it actually turns people off from coming t the games.
 
UMGriz75 said:
Jud Heathcote took a moribund basketball program and for a tired old warhorse, who had been an assistant coach at WSU to Marv Harshman ever since the mid 19th Century, really brought the right ideas.

Partly, it was acting. He knew how to act. He knew atmosphere. Cheerleaders were soooo out of favor in those days; he wanted cheerleaders, had a naming contest among the students, "Sugar Bears" won, got Lance Boyd to put together the band, HIS "Band of Renown," and put the students right down on the floor, the "Zoo." But, he got students involved, right off the bat. Elton John had a popular song about "sugar bears" and Jud just got people interested; the students were kind of intrigued, not only had they been asked as a student body, to get involved in the naming, but when the final name was announced, it's like "hey, we've got SUGAR BEARS!"

There was no Mascot; no one had thought of it before. The last UM mascot had been a real bear, and real bears were out of favor in those days. Jud decided there should be a mascot, but there was no money for a costume. The Forest Service had a big bear outfit, Smokey the Bear, but the hat was glued to the head. He got Earl's Distributing to loan their Hamm's Bear outfit -- actually, they had three of them -- and they were quite small. So, Jud asked to borrow all three and found little people to wear them around the Field House. They didn't know what to do; none of them had SEEN a "mascot" in action before, so those poor little Hamm's Bears kind of wandered around, waiving at people. Jud had to teach them how to be "mascots." A sixty year old basketball coach with a face like a bulldog trying to teach three little cartoon Bears how to have "personality."

Jud was a unique cross between PT Barnum and John Wooden. At at time when athletics was struggling in general, and football was mired in financial problems and a horrible facility, Jud was finally packing the Field House. Too, there was a terrific game voice, Phil Hess, and his successor, Fat Dad.

Once that momentum was going, it became part of student and fan routines. That was important. It didn't matter so much after Jud retired; going to the basketball game is what you did.

Then, with money flowing in, the Brain Trust thought a major renovation was the ticket to future growth.

It wasn't. I like the stadium seating of the remodeled Field House, but there was something about the old bleachers that made it feel like "a basketball game." The architects did a great job with "line of sight" seats, but the aisles are narrow and cramped, and it no longer feels like a Field House, it feels like a convertible venue for rock concerts that can also be a basketball court which is exactly what it is.

Too, the two year construction lag, when games were held at Sentinel, lost the UM students, and lost the community as well. Bringing UM Football back to campus was a big plus to its growth; taking UM Basketball off campus for two year really killed the program. It came back to a fine facility, but without the fans. They had just moved on to other things and didn't get BB back into their schedules.

Losing continuity in a program is a serious matter. You don't get a Jud Heathcote, Ringmaster, every season to build things back up; we can see that at the other universities. It's an uphill battle. It was for football. But once something "clicks" -- a Don Read, a Jud Heathcote, the right physical location -- it can click. And once there, it can sustain itself for a long time; self-sustaining so to speak. But once that continuity is lost -- coaches, facilities -- it is amazing how that impacts fans and attendance.

Wayne Tinkle is a terrific coach. The kids love him. But, he's not as personable in a public way as Heathcote -- no one was -- and not as much the all-around PR officer that Jud was. God, Jud could be funny. He always had something to say, and a unique way of saying it. He got people coming to the games; whether it was his signature yell, "Bennnnnnnie!" or taking off his sport coat and jumping on it; he brought people in. It was the Sugar Bears, the Band, the funny little awkward bears wandering around -- things that had not been a part of the games before. And winning. That "fast break" that was so exciting. He built the program and people loved it long after he was gone. But, it was really that construction period that lost that momentum.

It is something that concerns me about Engstrom's lack of experience and judgment: he doesn't appear to have any comprehension of how sudden and unpleasant changes can affect a program. He had the good fortune over the last year of having a $3.3 million profit from football, to apply to the $3.5 million loss he inflicted on the University by losing students and parents because of his actions over the past year. That's a $6.8 million difference of opinion on how to provide "leadership."

Time will tell if Engstrom lost the continuity in the football program. The point is, that consideration -- continuity -- is an extremely important one, people, places. UM Basketball lost it, and could never get it back.

excellent post.

you've got to have fans. without fans, sport does not exist beyond the sandlot/playground level. to get fans you've got to have the press, promotions, winning teams. heathcote understood that. much here about him i didn't know, and thank you for that.

as pointed out, the problem for basketball extends well beyond missoula. i think the game itself, as currently played, has become boring, and i attribute this in part to the three point line. what was supposed to be the "home run" ball has instead deprived us of basketball's best facet--passing. instead of deftly passing the ball to set up the close-in shot or the fast break opportunity, the game has devolved into a boring back-and-forth, into the post or back out for the three point shot. that or the incessant ego-driven in-your-face one-on-one, featuring way too much solo dribbling by one player. basketball was magic when we had magic, and he wasn't called magic because of his dunks.

i'll spend afternoons watching college football, but basketball only if I have a strong rooting interest. so maybe it's not the seating, the bear, the announcer or the semester break. maybe it's the product. maybe basketball has just become a big bore. the while football has taken on basketball's best aspects:passing, and oregon's "showtime" speed and fast-break offense. why, i believe even our own football offense was once called grass basketball. now it's called other things.
 
i'll spend afternoons watching college football, but basketball only if I have a strong rooting interest

I agree fully with this, citay. I used to be a HUGE college basketball fan and would watch it pretty much every night of the week. Now, as you suggest, unless I have a rooting interest, I rarely consider watching a game, and couldn't begin to tell you North Carolina's record without Google.

I don't really know why that is, but suggest that it is emblematic of a problem with the sport.
 
This conversation comes up every year.

I agree that it is depressing that as successful as Tinkles teams have been, as successful as Monty's/Morill's teams in the 80's, yet people don't come.

I think the ship has passed on moving the students, knowing a person within the A-Dept, says even if corporate boosters who sit in those seats stay empty that is still income to the program. Students who don't show up for two months of games and that equates to zero money. As crappy as it is, there is a semblance of an argument there. When your gym is 1/3 full every night, those empty seats that claim high dollar deposits on it seem a lot better when you need a base level of attendance every night to break even.

I think there would be an argument if the students showed up at all, and the place was 2/3 to completely full every night. But when you can't fill the bottom bowl for conference games, it makes it hard to write of a 1/2 of those bottom bowl tickets to students whose tickets are subsidized by the University and equate to no income. hate being the glass half empty guy here, but hard to argue against the logic the University uses right now in regards to student attendance and seating.

The UofM changed its spring semester schedule my freshman year of college 1995, from a Mid January start to a late January start. That long intersession has done a great job guaranteeing no student attendance for two months of basketball essentially. The rest of it is a general ambivalence towards grizzly basketball that started about the time Blaine Taylor left, and frankly neither program has been able to recoup its attendance levels for the 80's and 90's even.
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Grizbeer said:
The decline in attendance started well before the remodel of Dahlberg. Attendance started dropping in the late '80's (coincidentally with the passage of the 21 minimum drinking age?), bumped up again in the early '90's, then went downhill fast starting with the 96-97 season (when Idaho and Boise State left, and football had won a NC). The remodel was an attempt to try to reverse the trend in declining attendance, with the thought that an more modern, intimate setting would boost attendance. Moving the students was a way to pay for the remodel by bringing in booster money for premium seats. It didn't work and by 2001 UM was very worried about basketball attendance
http://www.cas.umt.edu/dcs/faculty/sillars/comm460/reports/Griz%20basketball.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the University and athletics department has tried in vain since to get the students interested again, but nothing works. They have tried bribing, threatening, cajoling, begging and whining, but nothing works. the students just are not interested in the program.

Also, for the record, Heathcote was in his mid-40's when he took over the program, not really an old man.

Good points. College basketball's decline was a nationwide trend, and was not unique to Missoula.

But here's the thing. Would students be interested again if we were a top twenty team? I think so. And how do we make that happen? We invest in the program. We increase our recruiting budgets dramatically. We go after private money. We sell beer. Whatever it takes, we do it. But it has to be a priority for the school.
Do you go to the games AWF? earlier u said soemthing about with exception of a few games they are all boring? U know I dont miss a game, and i am never bored! i always have a blast. Esp when the griz are winning. Instead of complaining about the atmosphere why not get to the game adn just do your part to create a great atmosphere. Going crazy is contagious, if your in a crowded section of the arena and you start going ape shit, it just might catch on (i sit with 13 people in sec 211 so my efforts usually fail). It doesnt have to be GONZAGA or Caeron indoor for it to be an enjoyable experince. And with out a doubt if the students were courtside they woudlnt show up, there would just be alot of empty seats on the sidelines instead of the baseline.
 
becker2117 said:
Do you go to the games AWF?

Yep. Unfortunately for me, my frame of reference is going to games when there was a great basketball atmosphere years ago. It does not compare now, even though it's better than not going at all.
 
only reliable way to get dahlburg bouncing every game is with vips in the front row. if they give kanye and lil wayne the best seats in the house students will be lining up three days before games. take it to the bank. that's why even the quitest nba game is 100 times as loud and crazy as the best ncaa game. also get rid of the retarded no smoking rule at the games. i mean its 2012 now most of us students who arent 70 yrs old want to get bleezed out during the games. if it bothers u then sit up higher
 
AllWeatherFan said:
becker2117 said:
Do you go to the games AWF?

Yep. Unfortunately for me, my frame of reference is going to games when there was a great basketball atmosphere years ago. It does not compare now, even though it's better than not going at all.

Ah the good old days....when Michael Ray Richardson ran the floor...Idaho State beat UCLA....Weber State and Neil McCarthy put 10 K in the seats in Ogden....Idaho beat PAC10 teams, and filled the dome....Griz fans threw potatoes on the floor when the Bengals came to town....teams like Gonzaga, USC and Washington State actually came to Pocatello....the Minidome sold out for an Idaho-ISU game featuring Orlando Lightfoot....Boise State, Idaho and Weber State routinely attracted crowds of 6 K in the dome....Yep, those were good times throughout much of the Big Sky.

All gone now because....there are at least a dozen NBA and NCAA basketball games on TV on any given night....BSU, Idaho and Nevada left and took a lot of rivalries with them....while there used to be 180 D-1 schools in the "good, old" days, there are now 350 and they are all competing for the same players....Schools from BCS leagues won't even consider travelling to play on a Big Sky court....as Bill Walton noted on the UCLA-Stanford game the other night, while college football has speeded up and gotten more interesting, college basketball has slowed down and gotten more tedious.
 
JAKEweezy93 said:
i mean its 2012 now most of us students who arent 70 yrs old want to get bleezed out during the games. if it bothers u then sit up higher

I'd definitely sit up "higher" if I were bleezed out!
 
I sure miss the good old days. Sat in the student section from 1977 to 1982. the atmosphere was electric.
But, there are many reasons for the loss of attendance and the atmosphere, and I don't think they will ever get it back. Once you lose it, it is harder to get it back. The remodel is one but only a minor reason. Attendance drop was from 4,455 fans in 1997 - 98 season (season before remodel) to 4,372 fans in 1999-2001 season (1st year after remodel). Not that large of a drop considering every year from 1991-92 season to 1997-98 season, there were larger drops in attendance each year. It was a steady drop from about 300 to 600 fans per year, from 7,034 down to 4,455 average attendance. therefore, the remodel really did not have that big of an effect. the years since the remodel there were seasons with better attendance then the last 2 years prior to the remodel.

the 2 or 3 major reasons are:
1. Change to semester. Semesters started 1992-93. Attendance started to drop starting with the year they switched to semesters.
2. Success of football - football team started to play deeper into the playoffs which overlapped the start of basketball season at about the same time.
3. Blaine Taylor became head coach in 1991-92 and many fans didn't like his coaching style very well.

Okay, 3 maybe not the major reason, but could be.

Solutions:
1. go back to the quarter system.
2. Move the football team to fbs so that they do not play so many games during basketball season (most likely none for a few seasons).
3. Hire a coach that can entertain the crowd more.
4. hire Fat Dad to do the PA again.
5. Someone has to take the role of mega-mouth (he was funny).
6. You could move the students back but I think they will need to do another remodel of the field house like rotate the floor back to where it was in the 60's or early '70s where there would be more seats to accommodate the season ticket holders.
 
TrueGriz said:
I sure miss the good old days. Sat in the student section from 1977 to 1982. the atmosphere was electric.
But, there are many reasons for the loss of attendance and the atmosphere, and I don't think they will ever get it back. Once you lose it, it is harder to get it back. The remodel is one but only a minor reason. Attendance drop was from 4,455 fans in 1997 - 98 season (season before remodel) to 4,372 fans in 1999-2001 season (1st year after remodel). Not that large of a drop considering every year from 1991-92 season to 1997-98 season, there were larger drops in attendance each year. It was a steady drop from about 300 to 600 fans per year, from 7,034 down to 4,455 average attendance. therefore, the remodel really did not have that big of an effect. the years since the remodel there were seasons with better attendance then the last 2 years prior to the remodel.

the 2 or 3 major reasons are:
1. Change to semester. Semesters started 1992-93. Attendance started to drop starting with the year they switched to semesters.
2. Success of football - football team started to play deeper into the playoffs which overlapped the start of basketball season at about the same time.
3. Blaine Taylor became head coach in 1991-92 and many fans didn't like his coaching style very well.

Okay, 3 maybe not the major reason, but could be.

Solutions:
1. go back to the quarter system.
2. Move the football team to fbs so that they do not play so many games during basketball season (most likely none for a few seasons).
3. Hire a coach that can entertain the crowd more.
4. hire Fat Dad to do the PA again.
5. Someone has to take the role of mega-mouth (he was funny).
6. You could move the students back but I think they will need to do another remodel of the field house like rotate the floor back to where it was in the 60's or early '70s where there would be more seats to accommodate the season ticket holders.

All very good reasons, let me add one.
Pat Kennedy was an ass to fans, and media. That man drove more than his fair share of fans, and many of them have not returned. He turned me off too, when he was an ass to me, and several other friends of mine. The man did not care about the GRIZ or the School, just his own ego. I returned as soon as LK was hired. I could not stay away forever.
 
I'm with ya, Becker 2117!

I go to every single game and I'm NEVER bored. I was a student in the 70s & went to the frosh/jv games early so I could get a good seat... then upon graduation bought season tickets & have never been bored with Griz hoops.

I believe Griz basketball is as good as ever, but most probably better than it has ever been. Now I'm one of those old farts in the front row that other posters complain about.... but I'm there EVERY game and though not as loud, I'm every bit as crazed about Griz hoops as ever.

The problem ain't me & Becker. It's all you lazy couch potato fans too lazy to develop a bit of Griz fan attitude! Try it & get to a game or two. Griz Hoops -- ala 2013 -- will grow on you.

As for those poster who say Griz basketball isn't as good as it was... You're Dead Wrong. The Griz are on a run because they've been consistently good. And you're missing it because YOU see through some strange colored glasses through your tv set. Get there in person and you'll see a team that plays with verve, intensity and toughness every night for a win. And (as some of you have hinted) the more fans there are, the harder those kids bust when get they get a dose of that crowd-induced adrenaline surge.

The simple way to get a better atmosphere at Griz games is for more people to fill the seats. I've gone through all the past excuses & reasons but none of those things count anymore. Simply put, more bodies in the seats equals more wins which equals more bodies in the seats which...
 
All this talk about how great things were in the 70s and 80s compared to today could apply to nearly all college basketball gyms. Yes, I agree the talent level today is superb across the board. But, the world has changed. Firstly, back in the "old" days, students did not have computers, tvs in the room, electronic gadgets and a choice of things to do as the kids have today. Then, the overexposure of teams on ESPN and other networks...too much of a good thing....nothing special..It used to be that the top teams met only in tournaments, if then, and the NCAA tourney became "the season" for the elite....that takes a lot of interest out of it except for the bookies and the gaming industry...I see UM students sitting in a corner of the arena and the rest as formula....at least, in places like Santa Barbara, Davis, Poly, even UCLA, students are part of the action and sit on the sides...they are welcomed...when you get students hidden under the baskets, the message is clear...sadly, quite a few places have done that..and of those, I am willing to bet that they have the same declining attendance unless the team is "hot".....There are simply far more options for students today....
 
So, to sum up, we're doing everything we possibly can to make UM basketball as competitive as it can be, and if the fans don't show up in droves, it's their fault because they have smart phones and satellite TV. Alrighty then.
 
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