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Montana vs PSU

The best thing UM can do to get people to the field house is to keep on winning. Also, beer would help.

Oh, and one more thing - get the students courtside. All the old fart season ticket holders will still have great seats. Check out a Gonzaga game on TV to see what creates a winning basketball atmosphere. I don't care what anybody says, or what experiments have been tried in the past, the students need to become a part of the tradition once again.
 
AllWeatherFan said:
The best thing UM can do to get people to the field house is to keep on winning. Also, beer would help.

Oh, and one more thing - get the students courtside. All the old fart season ticket holders will still have great seats. Check out a Gonzaga game on TV to see what creates a winning basketball atmosphere. I don't care what anybody says, or what experiments have been tried in the past, the students need to become a part of the tradition once again.
Ok that's just bull. Most of the people who sit courtside aren't old farts anyway, and they're louder than the pathetic support the student section gives most nights. There just isn't much student support.
 
AllWeatherFan said:
The best thing UM can do to get people to the field house is to keep on winning. Also, beer would help.

Oh, and one more thing - get the students courtside. All the old fart season ticket holders will still have great seats. Check out a Gonzaga game on TV to see what creates a winning basketball atmosphere. I don't care what anybody says, or what experiments have been tried in the past, the students need to become a part of the tradition once again.
Just curious adn dont take this the wrong way...have you been to the games in the past few years? Unless you think a 1500 students would come out of the woodworks just cuz they are "courtside" this idea is CRAZY! With exception of both weber games and the EWU tourney game, they dont do shit(when they show up) I just dont see how tossing them courtside will bring them out in full force...because there is nothing wrong with sitting behind the baseline...those are good seats. If we put em courtside it would look like a joke.

on another note? if you buy a gen admin ticket can you go down and sit in the studen section...cuz i have half a mind to go down there so there is at least a little life down on the court!
 
It makes no difference where the students get to sit ... the students do NOT come to basketball games. I have no answers as to why; they simply aren't there.
 
'68griz said:
It makes no difference where the students get to sit ... the students do NOT come to basketball games. I have no answers as to why; they simply aren't there.

And how do you get them there? Because we will never have a decent basketball atmosphere unless the students play a major role.
 
I have NO idea how to get the students there. When I was in school (back in the dark ages), I'm not sure I missed either a basketball game or a football game in four years -- nor did my friends. Today's kids simply don't seem to care. I fully realize that is not the case in some other places, but it certainly seems to be the case at UM.
 
Jud Heathcote took a moribund basketball program and for a tired old warhorse, who had been an assistant coach at WSU to Marv Harshman ever since the mid 19th Century, really brought the right ideas.

Partly, it was acting. He knew how to act. He knew atmosphere. Cheerleaders were soooo out of favor in those days; he wanted cheerleaders, had a naming contest among the students, "Sugar Bears" won, got Lance Boyd to put together the band, HIS "Band of Renown," and put the students right down on the floor, the "Zoo." But, he got students involved, right off the bat. Elton John had a popular song about "sugar bears" and Jud just got people interested; the students were kind of intrigued, not only had they been asked as a student body, to get involved in the naming, but when the final name was announced, it's like "hey, we've got SUGAR BEARS!"

There was no Mascot; no one had thought of it before. The last UM mascot had been a real bear, and real bears were out of favor in those days. Jud decided there should be a mascot, but there was no money for a costume. The Forest Service had a big bear outfit, Smokey the Bear, but the hat was glued to the head. He got Earl's Distributing to loan their Hamm's Bear outfit -- actually, they had three of them -- and they were quite small. So, Jud asked to borrow all three and found little people to wear them around the Field House. They didn't know what to do; none of them had SEEN a "mascot" in action before, so those poor little Hamm's Bears kind of wandered around, waiving at people. Jud had to teach them how to be "mascots." A sixty year old basketball coach with a face like a bulldog trying to teach three little cartoon Bears how to have "personality."

Jud was a unique cross between PT Barnum and John Wooden. At at time when athletics was struggling in general, and football was mired in financial problems and a horrible facility, Jud was finally packing the Field House. Too, there was a terrific game voice, Phil Hess, and his successor, Fat Dad.

Once that momentum was going, it became part of student and fan routines. That was important. It didn't matter so much after Jud retired; going to the basketball game is what you did.

Then, with money flowing in, the Brain Trust thought a major renovation was the ticket to future growth.

It wasn't. I like the stadium seating of the remodeled Field House, but there was something about the old bleachers that made it feel like "a basketball game." The architects did a great job with "line of sight" seats, but the aisles are narrow and cramped, and it no longer feels like a Field House, it feels like a convertible venue for rock concerts that can also be a basketball court which is exactly what it is.

Too, the two year construction lag, when games were held at Sentinel, lost the UM students, and lost the community as well. Bringing UM Football back to campus was a big plus to its growth; taking UM Basketball off campus for two year really killed the program. It came back to a fine facility, but without the fans. They had just moved on to other things and didn't get BB back into their schedules.

Losing continuity in a program is a serious matter. You don't get a Jud Heathcote, Ringmaster, every season to build things back up; we can see that at the other universities. It's an uphill battle. It was for football. But once something "clicks" -- a Don Read, a Jud Heathcote, the right physical location -- it can click. And once there, it can sustain itself for a long time; self-sustaining so to speak. But once that continuity is lost -- coaches, facilities -- it is amazing how that impacts fans and attendance.

Wayne Tinkle is a terrific coach. The kids love him. But, he's not as personable in a public way as Heathcote -- no one was -- and not as much the all-around PR officer that Jud was. God, Jud could be funny. He always had something to say, and a unique way of saying it. He got people coming to the games; whether it was his signature yell, "Bennnnnnnie!" or taking off his sport coat and jumping on it; he brought people in. It was the Sugar Bears, the Band, the funny little awkward bears wandering around -- things that had not been a part of the games before. And winning. That "fast break" that was so exciting. He built the program and people loved it long after he was gone. But, it was really that construction period that lost that momentum.

It is something that concerns me about Engstrom's lack of experience and judgment: he doesn't appear to have any comprehension of how sudden and unpleasant changes can affect a program. He had the good fortune over the last year of having a $3.3 million profit from football, to apply to the $3.5 million loss he inflicted on the University by losing students and parents because of his actions over the past year. That's a $6.8 million difference of opinion on how to provide "leadership."

Time will tell if Engstrom lost the continuity in the football program. The point is, that consideration -- continuity -- is an extremely important one, people, places. UM Basketball lost it, and could never get it back.
 
UMGriz75, I don't disagree with anything you say. The 70s were after my time, so I can't really speak for what occurred then. I do know that, in the mid 60s, the basketball games were usually full ... not so much for football, but then those teams REALLY sucked. Whatever, I have fond memories of all those games.
 
UMGriz75 said:
Jud Heathcote took a moribund basketball program and for a tired old warhorse, who had been an assistant coach at WSU to Marv Harshman ever since the mid 19th Century, really brought the right ideas.

Partly, it was acting. He knew how to act. He knew atmosphere. Cheerleaders were soooo out of favor in those days; he wanted cheerleaders, had a naming contest among the students, "Sugar Bears" won, got Lance Boyd to put together the band, and put the students right down on the floor, the "Zoo."

There was no Mascot; no one had thought of it before. The last UM mascot had been a real bear, and real bears were out of favor in those days. Jud decided there should be a mascot, but there was no money for a costume. The Forest Service had a big bear outfit, Smokey the Bear, but the hat was glued to the head. He got Earl's Distributing to loan their Hamm's Bear outfit -- actually, they had three of them -- and they were quite small. So, Jud asked to borrow all three and found little people to wear them around the Field House. They didn't know what to do; none of them had SEEN a "mascot" in action before, so those poor little Hamm's Bears kind of wandered around, waiving at people. Jud had to teach them how to be "mascots." A sixty year old basketball coach with a face like a bulldog trying to teach three little cartoon Bears how to have "personality."

Jud was a unique cross between PT Barnum and John Wooden. At at time when athletics was struggling in general, and football was mired in financial problems and a horrible facility, Jud was finally packing the Field House. Too, there was a terrific game voice, Phil Hess, and his successor, Fat Dad.

Once that momentum was going, it became part of student and fan routines. That was important. It didn't matter so much after Jud retired; going to the basketball game is what you did.

Then, with money flowing in, the Brain Trust thought a major renovation was the ticket to future growth.

It wasn't. I like the stadium seating of the remodeled Field House, but there was something about the old bleachers that made it feel like "a basketball game." The architects did a great job with "line of sight" seats, but the aisles are narrow and cramped, and it no longer feels like a Field House, it feels like a convertible venue for rock concerts that can also be a basketball court which is exactly what it is.

Too, the two year construction lag, when games were held at Sentinel, lost the UM students, and lost the community as well. Bringing UM Football back to campus was a big plus to its growth; taking UM Basketball off campus for two year really killed the program. It came back to a fine facility, but without the fans. They had just moved on to other things and didn't get BB back into their schedules.

Losing continuity in a program is a serious matter. You don't get a Jud Heathcote, Ringmaster, every season to build things back up; we can see that at the other universities. It's an uphill battle. It was for football. But once something "clicks" -- a Don Read, a Jud Heathcote, the right physical location -- it can click. And once there, it can sustain itself for a long time; self-sustaining so to speak. But once that continuity is lost -- coaches, facilities -- it is amazing how that impacts fans and attendance.

Wayne Tinkle is a terrific coach. The kids love him. But, he's not as personable in a public way as Heathcote -- no one was -- and not as much the all-around PR officer that Jud was. God, Jud could be funny. He always had something to say, and a unique way of saying it. He got people coming to the games; whether it was his signature yell, "Bennnnnnnie!" or taking off his sport coat and jumping on it; he brought people in. It was the Sugar Bears, the Band, the funny little awkward bears wandering around -- things that had not been a part of the games before. And winning. That "fast break" that was so exciting. He built the program and people loved it long after he was gone. But, it was really that construction period that lost that momentum.

It is something that concerns me about Engstrom's lack of experience and judgment: he doesn't appear to have any comprehension of how sudden and unpleasant changes can affect a program. He had the good fortune over the last year of having a $3.3 million profit from football, to apply to the $3.5 million loss he inflicted on the University by losing students and parents because of his actions over the past year. That's a $6.8 million difference of opinion on how to provide "leadership."

Time will tell if Engstrom lost the continuity in the football program. The point is, that consideration -- continuity -- is an extremely important one, people, places. UM Basketball lost it, and could never get it back.
Good post, but the Griz only played one year at Sentinel (Holst's first year where the Griz finished with a losing record and did not make the conference tournament.) :thumb:
 
'68griz said:
UMGriz75, I don't disagree with anything you say. The 70s were after my time, so I can't really speak for what occurred then. I do know that, in the mid 60s, the basketball games were usually full ... not so much for football, but then those teams REALLY sucked. Whatever, I have fond memories of all those games.
I attended my first game in 1957, and I also recall pretty good attendance; on portable bleachers that filled up at about half of the 1970s capacity after the first renovation that changed the orientation of the entire inside of the Field House. Your graduation year, 68, is significant. So many negative attitudes arrived on campus (all of them) that year: ROTC, protests, all the rock singers grew beards, the Year Book was cancelled, Homecoming Kings and Queens were deemed passe; the cheerleaders were exploiting the masses, and all that baloney. On the other hand, the Sentinel dynasty was in full swing then, Coach Nord, then Lou Rocheleu and some losing seasons; turmoil in all directions.
 
GrizWhiz said:
]Good post, but the Griz only played one year at Sentinel (Holst's first year where the Griz finished with a losing record and did not make the conference tournament.) :thumb:
You're probably right. I was coaching at the time, different sport, but we used the Field House and not having the Field House for a whole year may have seemed like two years.
 
'68griz said:
I have NO idea how to get the students there. When I was in school (back in the dark ages), I'm not sure I missed either a basketball game or a football game in four years -- nor did my friends. Today's kids simply don't seem to care. I fully realize that is not the case in some other places, but it certainly seems to be the case at UM.

Yup, you went to all the games and you were right there at court side.
 
UMGriz75 said:
That "fast break" that was so exciting.

I think you hit on it. Kids have more options today than they did when you or I were a student and they want to be entertained. You get a couple of high-flying kids who can play great defense, run the fast break, and slam the ball and that place will rock.
 
UMGriz75 said:
Jud Heathcote took a moribund basketball program and for a tired old warhorse, who had been an assistant coach at WSU to Marv Harshman ever since the mid 19th Century, really brought the right ideas.

Partly, it was acting. He knew how to act. He knew atmosphere. Cheerleaders were soooo out of favor in those days; he wanted cheerleaders, had a naming contest among the students, "Sugar Bears" won, got Lance Boyd to put together the band, and put the students right down on the floor, the "Zoo." But, he got students involved, right off the bat. Elton John had a popular song about "sugar bears" and Jud just got people interested.

There was no Mascot; no one had thought of it before. The last UM mascot had been a real bear, and real bears were out of favor in those days. Jud decided there should be a mascot, but there was no money for a costume. The Forest Service had a big bear outfit, Smokey the Bear, but the hat was glued to the head. He got Earl's Distributing to loan their Hamm's Bear outfit -- actually, they had three of them -- and they were quite small. So, Jud asked to borrow all three and found little people to wear them around the Field House. They didn't know what to do; none of them had SEEN a "mascot" in action before, so those poor little Hamm's Bears kind of wandered around, waiving at people. Jud had to teach them how to be "mascots." A sixty year old basketball coach with a face like a bulldog trying to teach three little cartoon Bears how to have "personality."

Jud was a unique cross between PT Barnum and John Wooden. At at time when athletics was struggling in general, and football was mired in financial problems and a horrible facility, Jud was finally packing the Field House. Too, there was a terrific game voice, Phil Hess, and his successor, Fat Dad.

Once that momentum was going, it became part of student and fan routines. That was important. It didn't matter so much after Jud retired; going to the basketball game is what you did.

Then, with money flowing in, the Brain Trust thought a major renovation was the ticket to future growth.

It wasn't. I like the stadium seating of the remodeled Field House, but there was something about the old bleachers that made it feel like "a basketball game." The architects did a great job with "line of sight" seats, but the aisles are narrow and cramped, and it no longer feels like a Field House, it feels like a convertible venue for rock concerts that can also be a basketball court which is exactly what it is.

Too, the two year construction lag, when games were held at Sentinel, lost the UM students, and lost the community as well. Bringing UM Football back to campus was a big plus to its growth; taking UM Basketball off campus for two year really killed the program. It came back to a fine facility, but without the fans. They had just moved on to other things and didn't get BB back into their schedules.

Losing continuity in a program is a serious matter. You don't get a Jud Heathcote, Ringmaster, every season to build things back up; we can see that at the other universities. It's an uphill battle. It was for football. But once something "clicks" -- a Don Read, a Jud Heathcote, the right physical location -- it can click. And once there, it can sustain itself for a long time; self-sustaining so to speak. But once that continuity is lost -- coaches, facilities -- it is amazing how that impacts fans and attendance.

Wayne Tinkle is a terrific coach. The kids love him. But, he's not as personable in a public way as Heathcote -- no one was -- and not as much the all-around PR officer that Jud was. God, Jud could be funny. He always had something to say, and a unique way of saying it. He got people coming to the games; whether it was his signature yell, "Bennnnnnnie!" or taking off his sport coat and jumping on it; he brought people in. It was the Sugar Bears, the Band, the funny little awkward bears wandering around -- things that had not been a part of the games before. And winning. That "fast break" that was so exciting. He built the program and people loved it long after he was gone. But, it was really that construction period that lost that momentum.

It is something that concerns me about Engstrom's lack of experience and judgment: he doesn't appear to have any comprehension of how sudden and unpleasant changes can affect a program. He had the good fortune over the last year of having a $3.3 million profit from football, to apply to the $3.5 million loss he inflicted on the University by losing students and parents because of his actions over the past year. That's a $6.8 million difference of opinion on how to provide "leadership."

Time will tell if Engstrom lost the continuity in the football program. The point is, that consideration -- continuity -- is an extremely important one, people, places. UM Basketball lost it, and could never get it back.

Good post. Fun to read and brought back great memories. Hell, just watching Heathcote was pure entertainment.
 
AllWeatherFan said:
'68griz said:
I have NO idea how to get the students there. When I was in school (back in the dark ages), I'm not sure I missed either a basketball game or a football game in four years -- nor did my friends. Today's kids simply don't seem to care. I fully realize that is not the case in some other places, but it certainly seems to be the case at UM.

Yup, you went to all the games and you were right there at court side.
Yeah, I did go to those games. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
 
'68griz said:
AllWeatherFan said:
'68griz said:
I have NO idea how to get the students there. When I was in school (back in the dark ages), I'm not sure I missed either a basketball game or a football game in four years -- nor did my friends. Today's kids simply don't seem to care. I fully realize that is not the case in some other places, but it certainly seems to be the case at UM.

Yup, you went to all the games and you were right there at court side.
Yeah, I did go to those games. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
I think what he is trying to say is that the students don't go to the games because the (previous) administration told them they are not important by moving them from the sidelines to the baseline. in the scheme of things the actual location isn't important, there is nothing more magical about the sideline location for making noise or being excited, but there is something symbolic about getting moved out to accommodate money. they lost the students, and I don't know if they will ever get them back - even if they restore the sidelines, I'm don't think it would do it.

I have a child who is a student at UM, that sometimes attends games but not always. His friends rarely attend games. They would rather sit around and watch Gonzaga or North Carolina or an NBA team play on TV. Griz are DI, but they don't capture the imagination the way they did back in our day. Maybe it is too much sports on TV, I'm not sure. Maybe too many seasons of never making progress, while watching Gonzaga move up and become a national power in basketball and Boise in football has brought them to the conclusion that Griz athletic programs are mostly irrelevant and small time. He and his friends attend UM, but wear Boise State or Gonzaga or North Carolina or USC or Michigan sweatshirts. To them there is not much difference between UM and the Big Sky Conference and UM Western and the Frontier conference (except they all have friends they went to high school with that play in the Frontier).

A couple other things to mention. The decline in attendance started well before the remodel of Dahlberg. Attendance started dropping in the late '80's (coincidentally with the passage of the 21 minimum drinking age?), bumped up again in the early '90's, then went downhill fast starting with the 96-97 season (when Idaho and Boise State left, and football had won a NC). The remodel was an attempt to try to reverse the trend in declining attendance, with the thought that an more modern, intimate setting would boost attendance. Moving the students was a way to pay for the remodel by bringing in booster money for premium seats. It didn't work and by 2001 UM was very worried about basketball attendance
http://www.cas.umt.edu/dcs/faculty/sillars/comm460/reports/Griz%20basketball.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the University and athletics department has tried in vain since to get the students interested again, but nothing works. They have tried bribing, threatening, cajoling, begging and whining, but nothing works. the students just are not interested in the program.

Also, for the record, Heathcote was in his mid-40's when he took over the program, not really an old man.
 
Like I've already said too, the switch from quarters to semesters didn't help, having the students gone. When they packed the house, students were already here for school.
 
i do love the griz said:
Like I've already said too, the switch from quarters to semesters didn't help, having the students gone. When they packed the house, students were already here for school.
I agree no students in January is a killer for momentum, but MSU is also on the semester system - they just start the spring semester in early January.
 
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