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Lady Griz vs. SUU
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Grizzlies1982
Well-known member
Disappointed for how poorly the Lady Griz finished. However I'm really disappointed with the damn "Pitchfork & Torches" mentality several of you are showing.
My views run directly opposite to two of my favorite board members, grizzlyjournal and Fat Bruno. But I have to speak my truth.
A Division I Women's basketball coach has 15 scholarships, two more than the men. These are not for "Daddy's LIttle Girls Playing Pee Wee basketball." These are for mature young women who likely at an early age demonstrated considerable athletic ability. Who then attended summer camp after summer camp, before playing AAU ball, and then demonstrated enough ability as seniors in high school to win a full-ride scholarship to what had been one of the premier programs in all of Division I Women's basketball, the Montana Lady Griz. I would expect that even at the deep end of the bench, these young athletes would have demonstrated the core aptitudes and fundamental basketball skills to perform at a competent level, especially in a loser-go-home playoff game against a team seeded three spots beneath us.
But that's not what we saw yesterday. What we saw yesterday was a team that:
--Could not shoot. 20% from deep (including one last second heave that was so errant it banked it), and slightly better than 50% from the foul line. Jordan one for ten? I've seen spectators come out of the stands for halftime contests and shoot better than that. And how many uncontested layups did we miss? I counted five. There may may have been more.
--Could not rebound. How many offensive rebounds did they get, 28? Again, these are fundamental skills you should have learned if you earned a Division One scholarship: The ability to block out. Worse, we were out-hustled and out-quicked on rebound after rebound.
--Could not get a stop when we needed it. Just when it looked like we were on a run, we-could-not-get a-stop. Our defense was porous, to say the least. Driving lanes were open time and again for Southern Utah. And while I don't have a shot chart, I'm sure it would show most of their shots came from within 10 feet.
--Could not drive to the basket. Time and again, Krista Redpath, the ex-Griz doing color commentary, said Montana needed drive more, not only to score but to open things up for Jace down low. Instead, my dominant memory of our offense is of a player holding the ball over her head with two hands out near the three point line--a position from which you cannot make a chest pass or a bounce pass, let alone be in a position to drive to the basket.
I then made the mistake of flipping over to catch a bit of the UConn game. My God, the difference in skill level between us and a UConn or a Notre Dame is the distance of a space probe to Mars. Those teams would beat us by 50 points and probably more if their lives depended on it. Long gone are the days when a Montana could face a USC with Lisa Leslie or a Texas Tech with Sheryl Swoopes and not only be in the game, but have a chance to win it. That's how far this program has fallen.
But for all the people here who want to oust Shannon, I say, she deserves one more year. Any coach does--a full four year cycle. Not only do we get some key players back from injury, but we welcome perhaps the second-most heralded recruit in the history of Lady Griz basketball, Jamie Pickens.
But therein lies a great irony. Jamie could have played anywhere in the country, but she chose to stick with us, because she had Lady Griz in her blood. Many Montana girls do, who grew up during the glory days of the program, when Montana was the dominant program in the state, the role model for young girls throughout the state.
But after three years of Shannon's leadership, can we say the same today? Is this the program young girls aspire to?
Not on the evidence we all saw yesterday. What we saw yesterday was absolutely lacerating.
A Division I Women's basketball coach has 15 scholarships, two more than the men. These are not for "Daddy's LIttle Girls Playing Pee Wee basketball." These are for mature young women who likely at an early age demonstrated considerable athletic ability. Who then attended summer camp after summer camp, before playing AAU ball, and then demonstrated enough ability as seniors in high school to win a full-ride scholarship to what had been one of the premier programs in all of Division I Women's basketball, the Montana Lady Griz. I would expect that even at the deep end of the bench, these young athletes would have demonstrated the core aptitudes and fundamental basketball skills to perform at a competent level, especially in a loser-go-home playoff game against a team seeded three spots beneath us.
But that's not what we saw yesterday. What we saw yesterday was a team that:
--Could not shoot. 20% from deep (including one last second heave that was so errant it banked it), and slightly better than 50% from the foul line. Jordan one for ten? I've seen spectators come out of the stands for halftime contests and shoot better than that. And how many uncontested layups did we miss? I counted five. There may may have been more.
--Could not rebound. How many offensive rebounds did they get, 28? Again, these are fundamental skills you should have learned if you earned a Division One scholarship: The ability to block out. Worse, we were out-hustled and out-quicked on rebound after rebound.
--Could not get a stop when we needed it. Just when it looked like we were on a run, we-could-not-get a-stop. Our defense was porous, to say the least. Driving lanes were open time and again for Southern Utah. And while I don't have a shot chart, I'm sure it would show most of their shots came from within 10 feet.
--Could not drive to the basket. Time and again, Krista Redpath, the ex-Griz doing color commentary, said Montana needed drive more, not only to score but to open things up for Jace down low. Instead, my dominant memory of our offense is of a player holding the ball over her head with two hands out near the three point line--a position from which you cannot make a chest pass or a bounce pass, let alone be in a position to drive to the basket.
I then made the mistake of flipping over to catch a bit of the UConn game. My God, the difference in skill level between us and a UConn or a Notre Dame is the distance of a space probe to Mars. Those teams would beat us by 50 points and probably more if their lives depended on it. Long gone are the days when a Montana could face a USC with Lisa Leslie or a Texas Tech with Sheryl Swoopes and not only be in the game, but have a chance to win it. That's how far this program has fallen.
But for all the people here who want to oust Shannon, I say, she deserves one more year. Any coach does--a full four year cycle. Not only do we get some key players back from injury, but we welcome perhaps the second-most heralded recruit in the history of Lady Griz basketball, Jamie Pickens.
But therein lies a great irony. Jamie could have played anywhere in the country, but she chose to stick with us, because she had Lady Griz in her blood. Many Montana girls do, who grew up during the glory days of the program, when Montana was the dominant program in the state, the role model for young girls throughout the state.
But after three years of Shannon's leadership, can we say the same today? Is this the program young girls aspire to?
Not on the evidence we all saw yesterday. What we saw yesterday was absolutely lacerating.
Grizzlies1982 said:
I understand your sentiment about the "Pitchfork & Torches". But what if we are right? Time will tell if we are Loyalists or Patriots. It depends on how it all works out in the end. My concern really is not for the Program as much as it is for the girls. The program will go on with or without the current coaches. If Shannon does not win she will be gone as a matter of economics as well as reputation. But the girls will be forever impacted by the experience they have had to endure.
Copper Griz
Well-known member
Grizzlies1982 said:
Several of us are equally disappointed with the “things will be ok, she just needs more time” argument. There are severe problems that need rectified and I don’t believe extending another year is going to solve those issues. You have a right to your opinion and I actually do understand why SS has strong support from many. I am just not one of them.
I am really curious, but what has Shannon done over the past 3 seasons that makes a person believe that she is a good coach? And don't go on about injuries...I get it, they probably do win a few more games, but the game yesterday was a microcosm of how fundamentally unprepared they have been since day one under Shannon.
moneyball said:
Although, losing builds character pretty well in the long run...
Copper Griz said:
I want Haslam to do a thorough examination of the problems to make sure the coach isn’t the cause of many of those problems, and to make sure that the players including key ones want to remain in the program under this coach. Why keep a coach who is the cause of too many problems. I don’t knew the facts. Haslam does or will know them. From what I have heard, I believe Haslam is and will be on top this one. I have confidence in him on this. Whatever he decides is fine with me.
Here's the problem that I have with the "Shannon needs time to build her program" statements. She played here. She coached under Robin for what, 10+ years?(someone help me with the exact number). She's now been the head coach for 3 years and had 3 straight losing seasons. She literally helped build what some are saying she needs time to build. Maybe injuries were just too much to overcome. Maybe she does favor her daughter over more talented players. Maybe she's not a good recruiter. Maybe she just can't coach. I don't know the answer to any of those statements that have been bantered around and I'm glad I'm not the AD that has to make this decision, but I know one thing, Lady Griz basketball is a mere shadow of its former self and it's pretty damn sad to watch.
grizzlyjournal
Well-known member
citay said:
Excellent post, citay. If we could hash this out for about an hour or so over coffee, we'd probably agree on most stuff. I'll make a couple of bullet point clarifications, starting with one that some posters here will probably criticize most.
• I have watched Montana basketball as a beat reporter & fan since 1981 and have watched over 90% of their games, including ALL home games courtside this year. An odd year, because they played most of the season without four of their 5 "best" guards. In spite of that, they soundly beat three of the Big Sky's top four teams... and UCDavis (23-6). and NIU (19-12). Clear wins. I believe the jekyll & hyde can be clearly explained. But not on here. You mention Krista though...
• Krista Redpath is probably Montana basketball's most knowledgeable and passionate supporter and analyst. It would perhaps be a great post-season sports radio forum to have her talk openly about the issues faced by Montana this past year. I respect her highly; I'd be interested in her take.
• The gap between high school and collegiate women's basketball is much wider than for men's hoops. Most D1 coaches believe that up to 8-in-10 mid-major level women's players NEED a redshirt year... something that Montana has simply not been able to do. (they finished the year yesterday with 8 uniformed players!).
• The gap between quality women's players in power 5 conferences and mid-major schools for women't basketball is said to be narrowing for men, but widening for women. I agree. I hear arguments that the NCAA finals field for men should EXPANDED, while the field for women is ok where it now stands.
• Regarding the point above: the gap between power 5 collegiate women's softball and all the rest in D1 is huge & currently getting wider... and some say that trend is also identifiable in women's soccer and volleyball.
••• I bring these things up because you agree with me on my single most important belief regarding the Montana women's team as it currently stands. Collegiate programs under all sports (with softball being even more critically focused) MUST be evaluated nowadays on full recruitment cycles (4-5 years). Therefore, it seems you possibly agree with my main contention, that coach Schweyen (given all circumstances of her program) deserves at least one, but probably two more years to build her program.
• Apologies if this sounds slightly arrogant on my part. With all programs and coaches there are exceptions. But coaching is a brutal job. Coaches (even the worst of them) deserve a fair chance.
Copper Griz
Well-known member
PlayerRep said:
I hope you are correct about KH being on top of this one. You are far closer to the program than I am. Most of the rumors I have heard are player/parent related. They appear to be legitimate. I actually think KH has done a good job at the U of M and it is a tough one. I agree - his decision will be fine by me either way. He sees the big picture and knows the truth vs rumors. I would not want his job!
I don't agree that coaches must be evaluated over a full recruitment cycle, i.e. 4-5 years. Coaching and program success are much more than recruiting. If a coach is causing problems in a program or not able to control problems in a program, or seemingly not able to coach or run a program, there are strong reasons not to wait 4 or 5 years. I am not saying any of those things apply in UM's situation. I don't have the facts, or many of them. The amount of chatter is huge, though, and has been for several years.
I assume that Haslam is or will be talking to people like Krista Redpath. He should also talk to former assistant coaches under Selvig, who coached with the current coach. Who's the tall former asst coach, who coached for a long time and played for the LG? She surely would have some views. I assume she still follows the program.
Anyway, keeping one's head in the sand is not the way to evaluate this situation, in my view.
I am enjoying the discussion.
I assume that Haslam is or will be talking to people like Krista Redpath. He should also talk to former assistant coaches under Selvig, who coached with the current coach. Who's the tall former asst coach, who coached for a long time and played for the LG? She surely would have some views. I assume she still follows the program.
Anyway, keeping one's head in the sand is not the way to evaluate this situation, in my view.
I am enjoying the discussion.
TrueGriz
Well-known member
grizzlyjournal said:
Lady Griz did NOT beat any of the Big Sky's top 4 teams soundly. Winning by 3 points is not beating them soundly. These games were definitely good wins for the Lady Griz but they just barely beat them. It does show that Lady Griz do have some talent, just not enough of it. Next year Lady Griz will have more talent, but they will be missing Jace Henderson whom had to have career nights just for the lady Griz to be able to win 2 of those 3 wins.
Copper Griz said:
Just for the record, I am not particularly close to the LG program. I attend many home games. I watched yesterday's game at the Press Box. I know some former players. I know some men's Roundball Club people, who seem to know or hear about the women. I have heard Haslam is on top of this one, and has been for a while. I have not talked to him. I am neutral on any action or decision. But the amount and strength of the chatter concerns me.
grizzlyjournal
Well-known member
I also fully support Kent Haslam.
MissoulaMarinerFan
Well-known member
PlayerRep said:
I believe that is Jordan Sullivan. Sonya Stokken (Rogers) another former LG is on the current staff as well. You would think that maybe Haslam would be in contact with Lindsey Wolley (1998 Missoula Big Sky Grad)- who has had a pretty good 3 year run coaching the ladies at UM Western.
I am also enjoying the discussion. The program appears to be at a cross - roads - it'll either get better or worse - time will tell.
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