lack of talent

[AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen]

Going into this season we had two bigs who were at one time first team all-conference, one guard who was frosh of the year and another in his sr year looking to prove himself. no matter which way you cut it—even w/o martin—that's pretty talented.

There is no way to quantify what the loss of Sean Watson means, however; there is no excuse for not executing the gameplan either. Let's face it, in the second half, msu did, UM did not. The Griz allowed msu to dictate the pace of the game after halftime, and did not match the energy/effort that msu put forth. There is enough blame to go around, but the majority of it is on the players imo. I think it was obvious in the first half the gameplan would be effective. The first half the Griz led in rebounding, then got their asses handed to them the second half on the boards, largely because of taking bad/untimely shots, and no one to board the ball. Very frustrating.

It could be on the players and it could be on the coaches. Either way, it's not due to talent. We're actually playing at a level lower than the sum of all our parts. Funny how these type of threads only start after we lose, as some sort of excuse or justification.

 

[Grizbacker1]

Going into this season we had two bigs who were at one time first team all-conference, one guard who was frosh of the year and another in his sr year looking to prove himself. no matter which way you cut it—even w/o martin—that's pretty talented.

There is no way to quantify what the loss of Sean Watson means, however; there is no excuse for not executing the gameplan either. Let's face it, in the second half, msu did, UM did not. The Griz allowed msu to dictate the pace of the game after halftime, and did not match the energy/effort that msu put forth. There is enough blame to go around, but the majority of it is on the players imo. I think it was obvious in the first half the gameplan would be effective. The first half the Griz led in rebounding, then got their asses handed to them the second half on the boards, largely because of taking bad/untimely shots, and no one to board the ball. Very frustrating.

It could be on the players and it could be on the coaches. Either way, it's not due to talent. We're actually playing at a level lower than the sum of all our parts. Funny how these type of threads only start after we lose, as some sort of excuse or justification.

I think the loss of Watson has been talked about long before this game, as well as leadership, or lack thereof, etc.

 

[grizonbob]

I was at the game and saw the Griz for the first time this year -- and agree with much of what's been said here. The Griz looked like a decent team from about ten minutes in until about 15 minutes left in the game, when the wheels came off.

Then they started to look completely lost. The lack of a leader really showed through. Martin seemed to try to take on the role, but do it on his own, not by getting his teammates involved. He started tossing up some godawful shots, as did others.

There was a big contrast with Carlos Taylor, who was a stud. Very aggressive, yet made the right decisions.

I too was puzzled by the poor guard play. I haven't seem Graves play, but seems like he deserves a shot when the others are having subpar nights. The Griz were having the most success with the inside out game. Yet sometimes Strait was forcing it, when he should have kicked it back out.

Does seem crazy to not redshit Qvale and then not play him more.

Still, I saw signs of hope. MSU probably has the best team in the league right now, and the Griz kept with them up til their lost their composure in the closing minutes. It was a pretty raucous crowd.

 

[AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen]

Going into this season we had two bigs who were at one time first team all-conference, one guard who was frosh of the year and another in his sr year looking to prove himself. no matter which way you cut it—even w/o martin—that's pretty talented.

There is no way to quantify what the loss of Sean Watson means, however; there is no excuse for not executing the gameplan either. Let's face it, in the second half, msu did, UM did not. The Griz allowed msu to dictate the pace of the game after halftime, and did not match the energy/effort that msu put forth. There is enough blame to go around, but the majority of it is on the players imo. I think it was obvious in the first half the gameplan would be effective. The first half the Griz led in rebounding, then got their asses handed to them the second half on the boards, largely because of taking bad/untimely shots, and no one to board the ball. Very frustrating.

It could be on the players and it could be on the coaches. Either way, it's not due to talent. We're actually playing at a level lower than the sum of all our parts. Funny how these type of threads only start after we lose, as some sort of excuse or justification.

I think the loss of Watson has been talked about long before this game, as well as leadership, or lack thereof, etc.

Even with the loss of watson, this team is a lot more talented than the way it's played; talented enough to win some of the games they lost.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

I can live with lack of talent. Lack of effort - nope.

 

[Grizbacker1]

I can live with lack of talent. Lack of effort - nope.

agreed

 

[AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen]

I can live with lack of talent. Lack of effort - nope.

agreed

Effort can overcome better talent. it's tough the other way around, especially when the difference isn't huge.

 

[Grizbacker1]

I can live with lack of talent. Lack of effort - nope.

agreed

Effort can overcome better talent. it's tough the other way around, especially when the difference isn't huge.

The talent is pretty equal, but the effort was like night and day. I saw Tinks comment's in the media, but as the man in charge, he also has to take some of the heat. It remains to be seen if calling your players out in public does the job. I would hope they each have enough pride in themsleves to fix it. I don't mean to imply they all took the night off either. The guilty parties know who they are.

 

[bobaloo]

I am afraid that Tinks has caught that disease that I have seen in other coaches which is play the seniors and give them the most minutes because of their longevity in the program and not wanting to offend them and hurting their feelings by cutting the minutes even if it might help the team gel better. Freshmen are to wait their turn and be patient and quiet. Tinks tries to be every players best friend and it usually does not work as nobody ends up happy. I dont think Krysto had that philosophy. If a player had an attitude he sat at the end of the bench until he earned his minutes back regardless of his seniority. What happens is you end up with a few players not pulling on the same end of the rope. Where is the good cop bad cop mentality. The players go through the motions but dont give the effort because they are not happy inside. The cohesiveness is not there and the team as a whole is disjointed. Right now this team is playing as a bunch of individuals which will get you knocking around .500 for the season. I think somebody has to show some tough love to get the players eye back on the ball. I am not convinced that we lack the talent to be playing better. This team should be playing above .500 ball. MSU is.

 

[Grizbacker1]

I am afraid that Tinks has caught that disease that I have seen in other coaches which is play the seniors and give them the most minutes because of their longevity in the program and not wanting to offend them and hurting their feelings by cutting the minutes even if it might help the team gel better. Freshmen are to wait their turn and be patient and quiet. Tinks tries to be every players best friend and it usually does not work as nobody ends up happy. I dont think Krysto had that philosophy. If a player had an attitude he sat at the end of the bench until he earned his minutes back regardless of his seniority. What happens is you end up with a few players not pulling on the same end of the rope. Where is the good cop bad cop mentality. The players go through the motions but dont give the effort because they are not happy inside. The cohesiveness is not there and the team as a whole is disjointed. Right now this team is playing as a bunch of individuals which will get you knocking around .500 for the season. I think somebody has to show some tough love to get the players eye back on the ball. I am not convinced that we lack the talent to be playing better. This team should be playing above .500 ball. MSU is.

I agree. If you read the game thread you will see "tough love" mentioned.

 

[happy griz]

I am afraid that Tinks has caught that disease that I have seen in other coaches which is play the seniors and give them the most minutes because of their longevity in the program and not wanting to offend them and hurting their feelings by cutting the minutes even if it might help the team gel better. Freshmen are to wait their turn and be patient and quiet. Tinks tries to be every players best friend and it usually does not work as nobody ends up happy. I dont think Krysto had that philosophy. If a player had an attitude he sat at the end of the bench until he earned his minutes back regardless of his seniority. What happens is you end up with a few players not pulling on the same end of the rope. Where is the good cop bad cop mentality. The players go through the motions but dont give the effort because they are not happy inside. The cohesiveness is not there and the team as a whole is disjointed. Right now this team is playing as a bunch of individuals which will get you knocking around .500 for the season. I think somebody has to show some tough love to get the players eye back on the ball. I am not convinced that we lack the talent to be playing better. This team should be playing above .500 ball. MSU is.

I agree. If you read the game thread you will see "tough love" mentioned.

Tinks will be a short-lived phenomenon as head BB coach at Montana.

 

[Grizbacker1]

I am afraid that Tinks has caught that disease that I have seen in other coaches which is play the seniors and give them the most minutes because of their longevity in the program and not wanting to offend them and hurting their feelings by cutting the minutes even if it might help the team gel better. Freshmen are to wait their turn and be patient and quiet. Tinks tries to be every players best friend and it usually does not work as nobody ends up happy. I dont think Krysto had that philosophy. If a player had an attitude he sat at the end of the bench until he earned his minutes back regardless of his seniority. What happens is you end up with a few players not pulling on the same end of the rope. Where is the good cop bad cop mentality. The players go through the motions but dont give the effort because they are not happy inside. The cohesiveness is not there and the team as a whole is disjointed. Right now this team is playing as a bunch of individuals which will get you knocking around .500 for the season. I think somebody has to show some tough love to get the players eye back on the ball. I am not convinced that we lack the talent to be playing better. This team should be playing above .500 ball. MSU is.

I agree. If you read the game thread you will see "tough love" mentioned.

Tinks will be a short-lived phenomenon as head BB coach at Montana.

Short is an area of expertise of yours...at least as far as manhood and height are concerned. :loser:

 

[mtcommonsense]

All I hear from Tinkle is excuses, i.e. the players didn't execute, or the players didn't come out and play hard, or the need to man up. The fact is since he has taken over the Grizzles this team has had no leadership, or discipline. That starts with the head coach! For this team to be 6-8 is pathetic. They will at best finish 4th in the league.

They don't execute on offense. Andrew was an all conference player the two years under Krystko. He hasn't gotten worse as a player. They have no emphasis on getting the ball inside. Evidenced by the fact that they hardly go to the free throw line (and it has nothing to do with the officiating). They would rather settle for a jacked up 3 point shot than pound the ball inside and take advantage of their strengths.

There are a couple of old cliches that are true in basketball. "The team is a reflection of their head coach" and "you play how you practice." This team lacks discipline and fundamentals.

The job of a head coach is to be a leader and a teacher of the game of basketball. Tinkle brings neither one to the plate!

 

[Grizbacker1]

All I hear from Tinkle is excuses, i.e. the players didn't execute, or the players didn't come out and play hard, or the need to man up. The fact is since he has taken over the Grizzles this team has had no leadership, or discipline. That starts with the head coach! For this team to be 6-8 is pathetic. They will at best finish 4th in the league.

They don't execute on offense. Andrew was an all conference player the two years under Krystko. He hasn't gotten worse as a player. They have no emphasis on getting the ball inside. Evidenced by the fact that they hardly go to the free throw line (and it has nothing to do with the officiating). They would rather settle for a jacked up 3 point shot than pound the ball inside and take advantage of their strengths.

There are a couple of old cliches that are true in basketball. "The team is a reflection of their head coach" and "you play how you practice." This team lacks discipline and fundamentals.

The job of a head coach is to be a leader and a teacher of the game of basketball. Tinkle brings neither one to the plate!

Did you bother to read the game thread and post game comments? You are preaching to the choir. :twocents:

 

[IntuitiveGriz]

This is amazing to me. I have to rely on what I read about the talent we have since I rarely get to see the games. Thus far all I have heard is how talented we are compared to the rest of the conference. Now all of a sudden we loose by 16 to the pre-season seventh place team in the conference and now you guys are saying we are not that talented?

Which is it? Hopefully, it is just an off night.

The cats were predicted mid to low in the PRE-SEASON because NO ONE knew how their transfers were going to pan out. Well they are panning out pretty damn good, in fact one is even leading the conference in scoring. The Cats will challenge for the title...

 

[IntuitiveGriz]

Sorry to say it guys, but I just think you grossly overestimated how good your team was going to be this year. You have no quality wins thus far. Hope you guys can turn it around, but it just seems like you have a mediocre team. Not trying to be mean, just an outsider looking in. Sometimes it's hard to see from the inside.

This years Griz BB team is NOT extremely talented--the players we have are playing out of position. A huge problem for the Griz (for years) has been playing a 6'8" center!! Strait is a terrific player, but a center he is NOT, a power forward he IS!!! If we had a true center in the lineup, allowing strait to be quarded by someone his own size at the power foward slot, Strait would light up the scoreboard, and the true center would be landing us MORE rebounds. WHERE HAS A TRUE CENTER BEEN?!?!

Against the cats, UMs big men, Hasquet and Strait, were just 8-for-21 from the field. (Playing out of position of course).

Our guards played WEAK!! Martin and Rundles combined to shoot 3-for-16 while the Griz just barely ended up with more assists, 10, than turnovers, nine.

The Griz shot 27 percent in the second half. MSU shot 62 percent in the second half.

The Griz had a 15-13 rebounding edge in the first half, but the Cats won the battle 20-11 in the second. (WHERE'S OUR TRUE CENTER?!?!?)

Montana has lost six of its last seven!!! :shocked:


From the Missoulian:

“That kind of display in the second half was a joke,” Tinkle said. “We need better leadership, obviously we need better guard play, our big guys need to finish when they get it down by the rim; you need to just dig in, be a man and get a stop. We couldn't do any of those things.

“Is the sun going to come up tomorrow? You bet. It's the first game of league and we have 15 more. I'm just a little disappointed that some of those things that cost us in the preseason reared their heads again.”

 

[IntuitiveGriz]

I am afraid that Tinks has caught that disease that I have seen in other coaches which is play the seniors and give them the most minutes because of their longevity in the program and not wanting to offend them and hurting their feelings by cutting the minutes even if it might help the team gel better. Freshmen are to wait their turn and be patient and quiet. Tinks tries to be every players best friend and it usually does not work as nobody ends up happy. I dont think Krysto had that philosophy. If a player had an attitude he sat at the end of the bench until he earned his minutes back regardless of his seniority. What happens is you end up with a few players not pulling on the same end of the rope. Where is the good cop bad cop mentality. The players go through the motions but dont give the effort because they are not happy inside. The cohesiveness is not there and the team as a whole is disjointed. Right now this team is playing as a bunch of individuals which will get you knocking around .500 for the season. I think somebody has to show some tough love to get the players eye back on the ball. I am not convinced that we lack the talent to be playing better. This team should be playing above .500 ball. MSU is.

I agree. If you read the game thread you will see "tough love" mentioned.

Tinks will be a short-lived phenomenon as head BB coach at Montana.

I don't share that sentiment. I think Tinkle is a good coach and will assemble a great grizzly product in the future.

 

[citygriz]

couple more notes on talent.

montana is not athletic in the way we were last year, or two years ago when he had matthews, criswell and dhlouy. i'll never forget the shocked look on the boston college kid's face when he went up thinking he was going to block dhlouy, and dhlouy just kept rising and rising, and jammed over him. matthews could dunk on people too, and criswell had his own slick athletic moves around the basket. c-t and graves have some hops, but none of our big guys do, and graves doesn't get to play anyway, so we never have much athleticism on the floor.

neither hasquet nor strait is a true center, nor is either a three. they're both legitimate fours, meaning the talent is not distributed properly, too concentrated in one position.

and finally, we're seeing by its absence the importance of a good point guard, a kid who can penetrate the outer wall of defense, and create a shot for himself, or for his teammates inside. to do for our team what a chris paul or a baron davis does for their teams, somebody with quicks or strength, or both. i think we should recruit a point guard every year, as we tried with the jaycee transfer that washed out this summer, or as we have again with shawn stockton. good point guards just put their teams on their shoulders down the stretch of key games.

i still say, since the best talent on this team is concentrated up front, i'd go big, and stay big. play qvale and vanderjagt and sharp. we did against pacific and looked real good until qvale committed some stupid early fouls. but when you put rundles, staudacher and elgin-taylor out there against most college teams, you offer a deficit in talent that our opponents will immediately exploit, even in the big sky. at that point, all our well-hyped uber-talent suddenly vanishes, and we're left with a collection of ill-fitting parts.

 

[PlayerRep]

Bobaloo, I will be more direct than Intuitive. You don't know what you're talking about. I also assume you haven't seen a single game this year.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

If I hear one more person say that UM just had an "off night" I might vomit.

Colorado State - ON night for UM

Gonzaga - Just a much better team

MSU-Northern - ON night (NAIA)

South Dakota State - ON night

Washington State - Just a much better team

Air Force - Looked like a quality win at the time, but as of now, AF's most impressive wins are Northern Colorado, Norfolk State, and Radford. UM beat an average team by 2.

Mississippi Valley State - Beat a bad team by 7. Take what we can get.

Cal State Fullerton - OFF night. They just happened to score a bunch.

Portland - OFF night. Should have beat them. Just couldn't.

Santa Clara - OFF night. Blame it on the road.

Cal State Fullerton - OFF night.

Montana Tech - ON night. (NAIA)

Montana State - OFF night. MSU might just be the best mid-major conference pre-season 7th ranked team in the country. :jack:


How many off nights before it's considered an off-season?

I want to be excited about this team because there's really no other sports from February to April, but it's hard. The combined record of UM's D-I wins is 24-31. All versus mid-major teams who are average at best.

Fans can try to make excuses, but the truth is that there are 15 adequate players and 4-5 coaches on the floor every night. To blame UM's struggles on players that aren't even on the team (Watson) is a bit of a stretch. I think they're just a mediocre, soft, undisciplined team. I hope Tinkle can rally the team and prove that he's more than just a good recruiter. :twocents: