lack of talent

[stubbins]

Going into this season we had two bigs who were at one time first team all-conference, one guard who was frosh of the year and another in his sr year looking to prove himself. no matter which way you cut it—even w/o martin—that's pretty talented.

There is no way to quantify what the loss of Sean Watson means, however; there is no excuse for not executing the gameplan either. Let's face it, in the second half, msu did, UM did not. The Griz allowed msu to dictate the pace of the game after halftime, and did not match the energy/effort that msu put forth. There is enough blame to go around, but the majority of it is on the players imo. I think it was obvious in the first half the gameplan would be effective. The first half the Griz led in rebounding, then got their asses handed to them the second half on the boards, largely because of taking bad/untimely shots, and no one to board the ball. Very frustrating.

It could be on the players and it could be on the coaches. Either way, it's not due to talent. We're actually playing at a level lower than the sum of all our parts. Funny how these type of threads only start after we lose, as some sort of excuse or justification.

I think the loss of Watson has been talked about long before this game, as well as leadership, or lack thereof, etc.

agreed, I had concerns about Rundles last year, but gave him a freshman pass. I voiced them after the CSU win, but was told that I didn't know anything, and I...well I'm done...point is, I think fans have been concerned about outside play from day one.

 

[robomomo]

city griz, agree with you on many fronts, although not even the disillusioned would compare Strait with BC front court in the Griz's 2nd round tourney game.
Trouble with this team is discipline, and discipline is coached. Tinkle's not the only problem, but the last 2 years the basketball looks more like the games I remember at the rec center, and less like the games K coached. Maybe Criswell was that good and cam is that bad....but I don't think so. [/i]

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Out of curiousity I consulted scout.com for an unbiased opinion on the caliber of players that have been committing to play basketball in the Big Sky conference. These are the commitments received over the last 4 years. Some of these players aren't still playing because they were JC recruits or they left their school for whatever reason, but it appears UM has had the best recruiting classes over the last 4 years, with the exception of EWU's anomaly 2004 class. Take it for what it's worth. (The numbers reflect scout's star-caliber ranking.)


UM
2007- 3 1
2006- 2 2 1
2005- 3 2 2 2
2004- 2 2 2

MSU
2007- 2
2006- 1
2005- 1
2004- 2 2 1

EWU
2007- 1
2006- 1 1
2005- 2
2004- 3 2 2 2 2 2 2

ISU
2007-
2006- 1
2005-
2004-

WSU
2007- 2
2006-
2005- 2 2
2004- 2 2 2

PSU
2007-
2006- 2
2005- 2 2 2 1
2004- 2 2 2

CSUS
2007-
2006- 1
2005-
2004- 2

NAU
2007-
2006-
2005- 1
2004- 2 2 2 2

UNC
2007-
2006- 1
2005- 1 1
2004- 2

 

[AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen]

There is no way to quantify what the loss of Sean Watson means, however; there is no excuse for not executing the gameplan either. Let's face it, in the second half, msu did, UM did not. The Griz allowed msu to dictate the pace of the game after halftime, and did not match the energy/effort that msu put forth. There is enough blame to go around, but the majority of it is on the players imo. I think it was obvious in the first half the gameplan would be effective. The first half the Griz led in rebounding, then got their asses handed to them the second half on the boards, largely because of taking bad/untimely shots, and no one to board the ball. Very frustrating.

It could be on the players and it could be on the coaches. Either way, it's not due to talent. We're actually playing at a level lower than the sum of all our parts. Funny how these type of threads only start after we lose, as some sort of excuse or justification.

I think the loss of Watson has been talked about long before this game, as well as leadership, or lack thereof, etc.

agreed, I had concerns about Rundles last year, but gave him a freshman pass. I voiced them after the CSU win, but was told that I didn't know anything, and I...well I'm done...point is, I think fans have been concerned about outside play from day one.

Concerned about his outside play from day one?

You do know he led the conference in 3 pt shooting percentage last year, right?

 

[Grizbacker1]

Out of curiousity I consulted scout.com for an unbiased opinion on the caliber of players that have been committing to play basketball in the Big Sky conference. These are the commitments received over the last 4 years. Some of these players aren't still playing because they were JC recruits or they left their school for whatever reason, but it appears UM has had the best recruiting classes over the last 4 years, with the exception of EWU's anomaly 2004 class. Take it for what it's worth. (The numbers reflect scout's star-caliber ranking.)


UM
2007- 3 1
2006- 2 2 1
2005- 3 2 2 2
2004- 2 2 2

MSU
2007- 2
2006- 1
2005- 1
2004- 2 2 1

EWU
2007- 1
2006- 1 1
2005- 2
2004- 3 2 2 2 2 2 2

ISU
2007-
2006- 1
2005-
2004-

WSU
2007- 2
2006-
2005- 2 2
2004- 2 2 2

PSU
2007-
2006- 2
2005- 2 2 2 1
2004- 2 2 2

CSUS
2007-
2006- 1
2005-
2004- 2

NAU
2007-
2006-
2005- 1
2004- 2 2 2 2

UNC
2007-
2006- 1
2005- 1 1
2004- 2

TF,

Do you know what McGillis and Taylor rated?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Out of curiousity I consulted scout.com for an unbiased opinion on the caliber of players that have been committing to play basketball in the Big Sky conference. These are the commitments received over the last 4 years. Some of these players aren't still playing because they were JC recruits or they left their school for whatever reason, but it appears UM has had the best recruiting classes over the last 4 years, with the exception of EWU's anomaly 2004 class. Take it for what it's worth. (The numbers reflect scout's star-caliber ranking.)


UM
2007- 3 1
2006- 2 2 1
2005- 3 2 2 2
2004- 2 2 2

MSU
2007- 2
2006- 1
2005- 1
2004- 2 2 1

EWU
2007- 1
2006- 1 1
2005- 2
2004- 3 2 2 2 2 2 2

ISU
2007-
2006- 1
2005-
2004-

WSU
2007- 2
2006-
2005- 2 2
2004- 2 2 2

PSU
2007-
2006- 2
2005- 2 2 2 1
2004- 2 2 2

CSUS
2007-
2006- 1
2005-
2004- 2

NAU
2007-
2006-
2005- 1
2004- 2 2 2 2

UNC
2007-
2006- 1
2005- 1 1
2004- 2

TF,

Do you know what McGillis and Taylor rated?

McGillis was a 2 and I think Taylor was a 1.

 

[Grizbacker1]

I found it. McGillis was a 3 star and did not find anything on Taylor as i am pretty sure he walked on at EWU.

Jack McGillis Rivals Link

 

[Mslacat]

I found it. McGillis was a 3 star and did not find anything on Taylor as i am pretty sure he walked on at EWU.

Jack McGillis Rivals Link

Ha!!!!!
I just re looked up Jack Mcgillis on Rivals, and you are right he is now listed as a three star player!!

For the record during Jack's senior year he was not even listed on either Rivals or Scouts until late February and April respectively in 2005. I got Jerry Meyer, of Rivals, to list Jack in February, as a no star prospect. Greg Hicks of Scout refused to list Jack because he had never seen him play. Meyers got more interested in Jack when he heard Jack was going to walk on at Washington (which he ended up not doing) and he interviewed Jack a couple of times. Hicks soon followed and I got him in touch with Jack. Both recruiting web sites told me personally that they had not seen Jack play at all. Yet the minute Jack signed with Oregon State he went from a one or no star athlete to a two star athlete immediately. Now he is listed as a three star basketball player. That is funny! Some times I think it is not how good you are, but who you sign with.

By the way, Micheal Taylor was only a single star on Scout.com and no star on Rivals, but he had offers from Montana, Montana State, Eastern Washington, Texas Christian, Cal State Santa Barbra, Cal. State Irvine, and Saint Mary's that I know of. He was a full scholarship player for EWU. I can tell you this much former Bobcat coaches Mick Durham and Scott Carsen were absolutely in love with Taylor as a senior, comparing him to former Bobcat great Jason Erickson. For the record Bobcat's do not throw such comparisons likely.

 

[AtHomeInTheDahlbergDen]

Alright, so this argument that we don't have tons of window is somewhat lame this year but completely ridiculous and untrue next year.

 

[Grizbacker1]

I found it. McGillis was a 3 star and did not find anything on Taylor as i am pretty sure he walked on at EWU.

Jack McGillis Rivals Link

Ha!!!!!
I just re looked up Jack Mcgillis on Rivals, and you are right he is now listed as a three star player!!

For the record during Jack's senior year he was not even listed on either Rivals or Scouts until late February and April respectively in 2005. I got Jerry Meyer, of Rivals, to list Jack in February, as a no star prospect. Greg Hicks of Scout refused to list Jack because he had never seen him play. Meyers got more interested in Jack when he heard Jack was going to walk on at Washington (which he ended up not doing) and he interviewed Jack a couple of times. Hicks soon followed and I got him in touch with Jack. Both recruiting web sites told me personally that they had not seen Jack play at all. Yet the minute Jack signed with Oregon State he went from a one or no star athlete to a two star athlete immediately. Now he is listed as a three star basketball player. That is funny! Some times I think it is not how good you are, but who you sign with.

By the way, Micheal Taylor was only a single star on Scout.com and no star on Rivals, but he had offers from Montana, Montana State, Eastern Washington, Texas Christian, Cal State Santa Barbra, Cal. State Irvine, and Saint Mary's that I know of. He was a full scholarship player for EWU. I can tell you this much former Bobcat coaches Mick Durham and Scott Carsen were absolutely in love with Taylor as a senior, comparing him to former Bobcat great Jason Erickson. For the record Bobcat's do not throw such comparisons likely.

Mlsacat,

Thanks for the update on Taylor. I thought it was strange that he wasn't rated. I have added a link to where I read he was a walkon, but they must have referred to his walking on at MT. Didn't he pay his own way this year?

Michael Taylor Link

 

[mtgrizrule]

Speaking of talent, the GRIZ were on Blake Hoffarger (sp?) early. Too bad MN got him. I have seen him 2 times on tv this year. Wow, what a shooter!!!!! Damn minnesota anyway, WE could use this kid. What a STUD!!! :thumb:

Anyone else see him play this year? I am very impressed.

 

[robomomo]

Speaking of talent, the GRIZ were on Blake Hoffarger (sp?) early. Too bad MN got him. I have seen him 2 times on tv this year. Wow, what a shooter!!!!! Damn minnesota anyway, WE could use this kid. What a STUD!!! :thumb:

Anyone else see him play this year? I am very impressed.

hoffbarber (sp) he is a stud, but could not break down a defender to save his life. He was that kid who shot the game winning shot in the Minnesota chamionship game while laying on his back 15' out on the baseline. Griz never had a shot, he was a gopher since his junior yr.

Minnesota has a top 10 recruiting class coming in next yr to compliment him. Tubby's the shizzle.

 

[Montana Joe 16]

Recruiting holes= Coaching
Lack of discipline=Coaching
Underachieving=Coaching

So all you Tinkle supporters answer me this how does a program go from being 2 time Conference champs, 2 NCAA tournament appearances, 1 2nd round appearance, to barely finishing above 500 and to having a losing season thus far this year? I await your jock sniffer jersey chasing opinions.

 

[griz8791]

Recruiting holes= Coaching
Lack of discipline=Coaching
Underachieving=Coaching

So all you Tinkle supporters answer me this how does a program go from being 2 time Conference champs, 2 NCAA tournament appearances, 1 2nd round appearance, to barely finishing above 500 and to having a losing season thus far this year? I await your jock sniffer jersey chasing opinions.

Because guys like Krysko don't exactly grow on trees?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Recruiting holes= Coaching
Lack of discipline=Coaching
Underachieving=Coaching

So all you Tinkle supporters answer me this how does a program go from being 2 time Conference champs, 2 NCAA tournament appearances, 1 2nd round appearance, to barely finishing above 500 and to having a losing season thus far this year? I await your jock sniffer jersey chasing opinions.

Because guys like Krysko don't exactly grow on trees?

Right, but good coaches aren't one-in-a-million either. Did UM even do a coaching "search" when he left? It seems as if Tinkle was handed the job because he had paid his dues as a player and assistant with little to demonstrate that he was HC material.

That's the thing with the Hauck/Glenn and Tinkle/K situation. Joe Glenn and Larry K were very good coaches and even great coaches, but they weren't "amazing" or "incredible" or "perfect" or "irreplaceable" coaches. I feel like Hauck and Tinkle are making those guys look good because they are doing average jobs. The more years that pass, the greater their legend becomes as UM is exposed to more and more mediocrity and coaching mistakes. :twocents:

 

[PlayerRep]

Tinkle almost got the job when LK was hired. Some preferred Tinkle at that time. He wasn't handed the job for the reasons you mentioned, Turd.

 

[late_addition]

Recruiting holes= Coaching
Lack of discipline=Coaching
Underachieving=Coaching

So all you Tinkle supporters answer me this how does a program go from being 2 time Conference champs, 2 NCAA tournament appearances, 1 2nd round appearance, to barely finishing above 500 and to having a losing season thus far this year? I await your jock sniffer jersey chasing opinions.

Because guys like Krysko don't exactly grow on trees?

I feel like Hauck and Tinkle are making those guys look good because they are doing average jobs. The more years that pass, the greater their legend becomes as UM is exposed to more and more mediocrity and coaching mistakes. :twocents:

I understand the point you're trying to make....but....doesn't seem fair to Hauck that you're using Tinkle in the same breath. At least he's winning games, conference championships, and still filling seats. Not hate'n here, just stating what appears to be pretty obvious. Hauck's getting the job done, Tinkle really hasn't to this point. In all fairness to Wayne, he competing against Div. I schools (for the most part).

 

['68griz]

And Bobby's competing against Div. I schools too.

 

[mtgrizrule]

As for the filling the seats comment. Even when larry was here those seats were not filled. Regardless of coach, support for basketball SUCKS because we have a VERY fairweathered fan mentality. The only time we sold during LK's time here were the big out of conference games and MSU. To be honest, I was very disappointed in fan support LK's 2nd/last season here. We came of a great NCAA 1st round loss with much anticipation. We totally kicked ass from the get go his 2nd season. All good reasons for sellouts game in game out, yet fan support still SUCKED.

That is not something Tinks or any coach should be blamed for! The only people to blame for fan support is the local community and the so called fanbase. For anyone that is on EGRIZ much, this is not the 1st time I have called out our fanbase in terms of fan support in terms of basketball.

I have no tolerance for those that bitch about the coaching for basketball when they do not support the team anyway. Support the team 1st and foremost then feel to bitch. A much larger % of GRIZNATION supports football therefore can bitch more rightfully than our so called basketball fans. Get your asses to the game, if you want the right to bitch and be heared by anyone!!!

FWIW, Tinks will get through his growing pains, and when he does I believe this program will be everything we expect it to be. Hell it even took Wooden many years before UCLA has their success. Be PATIENT DAMN IT!!!!! GO GRIZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumb:

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Recruiting holes= Coaching
Lack of discipline=Coaching
Underachieving=Coaching

So all you Tinkle supporters answer me this how does a program go from being 2 time Conference champs, 2 NCAA tournament appearances, 1 2nd round appearance, to barely finishing above 500 and to having a losing season thus far this year? I await your jock sniffer jersey chasing opinions.

Because guys like Krysko don't exactly grow on trees?

I feel like Hauck and Tinkle are making those guys look good because they are doing average jobs. The more years that pass, the greater their legend becomes as UM is exposed to more and more mediocrity and coaching mistakes. :twocents:

I understand the point you're trying to make....but....doesn't seem fair to Hauck that you're using Tinkle in the same breath. At least he's winning games, conference championships, and still filling seats. Not hate'n here, just stating what appears to be pretty obvious. Hauck's getting the job done, Tinkle really hasn't to this point. In all fairness to Wayne, he competing against Div. I schools (for the most part).

Right, but the general consensus is that a chimpanzee with a visor and a clipboard could recruit good players to UM and make it to the playoffs, so a better measure of coaching ability is playoff success. In that case, even with homefield advantage he's been pretty average. Maintaining the status quo.