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James Madison to go to Sun Belt
- Thread starter billings_poke
- Start date
I would not give them that much credit; the BOR and RE lack the fortitude to consider any kind of move and do not have a proactive bone in their body. They have cast their fate to Fullerton and that should tell you something. The BOR's agenda is to get the MSU program to an equivilent level to UM, not to advance UM in any way.putter said:
OrgonGriz
Well-known member
kemajic said:
+1 here kemajic.
Please everyone do not take this wrong, but the general mentality and thinking with Montana as a state seems to be "there is no need for us to change, it's has been fine this way for years". Or the thinking is "we are just limited being in such a large state with so few people, there's no way that would work here". Growing up in Montana I honestly did not see or realize this until moving out of Montana. This way and type of thinking in a way really made it tough getting out into the world really. Luckily I quickly realized that I was capable of so much more than I ever had thought in Montana. Granted not everyone feels this way in Montana but I would say those numbers are low in comparison. This type of thinking is what will keep Montana from moving forward. This is not ment as a slam in any way, please!
It's easier to believe it can't or will not work than to put in the effort and risk and making it work!
ewueagle2010
Well-known member
Before I get accused of being a troll or out of my mind, I've got to ask...why would you really want the Griz to move up? The days of competing for National Championships would be over and the national respect for the program would slowly likely dwindle. Would you really want to trade 8-9-10 wins per season and playoff games for 4-5-6 wins per season and the occasional toilet bowl appearance? While I understand the money making possibilities, I don't think that's better than success. Maybe you do...
I don't think App State and GA Southern are making the right decision either, but I guess only time will tell. Without sounding like a arrogant a**hole...I don't think people realize what a small fish in the big pond UM really is in the grand scheme of college football. Yes, great success with a large alumni base around the United States, but not even touchable to the power 6 conference schools. Even Boise State who's seen some successful years doesn't get much respect at the highest levels. If they were in a bigger conference, they'd be a 4-5 win team. If the time comes that FCS schools are forced to move up, then great. Move up with the other Big Sky schools like MSU, EWU, Cal Poly, UC Davis, etc. But now? I don't see the point...
I don't think App State and GA Southern are making the right decision either, but I guess only time will tell. Without sounding like a arrogant a**hole...I don't think people realize what a small fish in the big pond UM really is in the grand scheme of college football. Yes, great success with a large alumni base around the United States, but not even touchable to the power 6 conference schools. Even Boise State who's seen some successful years doesn't get much respect at the highest levels. If they were in a bigger conference, they'd be a 4-5 win team. If the time comes that FCS schools are forced to move up, then great. Move up with the other Big Sky schools like MSU, EWU, Cal Poly, UC Davis, etc. But now? I don't see the point...
mtgrizrule
Well-known member
ewueagle2010 said:
I think the biggest frustration is, seeing our contemporaries having caught us, and many of them passing us. Hell, with all the work being put into EWU's program, you too may pass us, then leave us in the dust. To some, many other programs are moving forward, meanwhile, we are spinning our wheels, stuck in the mud, or worse yet going in reverse.
I see both sides to this never ending debate. I don't fault either side in it. To me, it does seem we have been shitting on the pot forever. When are we going to get off it? If we do not make a decision soon, we are going to flushed into oblivion.
billings_poke
Well-known member
ewueagle2010 said:
I don't think anyone would be forced up. but rather there are only so many slots in the middle tier of Schools and if you don't position yourself now you might not get one at all.
Presidents see athletics a bit different then fans do. The Sunbelt said they had been contacted by 16 FCS programs about a possible invite. You could hear the reasons as the Appy AD explained why they made the move. They do not think the FCS will continue as it is today, which is unfortunate
Copper Griz
Well-known member
Move up - stay down, everyone get in a circle and jerk yourselves all around. Does not matter really, the NCAA and big money are well on their way to destroying college football. We had a good 20 to 25 years and I guess we should be happy with that. Moving up means more money and more losses with no National Championship hopes. Stay down and we will win against weak opponents possibly. I say possibly - because their is always a chance other schools may fill the void created when these top FCS teams vacate for the Mediocre conference. What a grand cluster F&&ck! All for money based on television contracts. Something is seriously wrong here and I believe it is called the NCAA. I wish teams would break away from the sick as NCAA and blow the whole system up. I can always dream.
OrgonGriz
Well-known member
Well if what Poke mentioned hearing from App States AD that many FCS AD's see or feel a big shift coming from the NCAA, then I wonder what those plans may be?
If we somehow do not find ourselves in let's call it the mid majors FBS, will what is know know as FCS be DII?
Just a couple years ago App State did. Feasibility study and decided to stay FCS, as I recall the study showed it was not highly feasible. Has there been so much change that it now is, or is a matter of them knowing something is on the horizon that would put them in a worse place. I tend to believe it is both but mainly more of what's on the horizon.
I bet Jim O'Day still has a good many contacts he keeps in touch with in the AD world. It would be interesting to get his take on this.
For conversation sake. If the FCS level is dissolved would Griz fans rather be DII or FBS mid majors?
Personally I think if we had to go DII we would dominate for a few years but the brand of football would die off and after a few years the program.
I believe UM would still want to ask for $ for seating, donations etc just as they currently do. Fans and boosters would eventually cut back for paying to see lack of competition. In the end in this scenario UM suffers. We already hear gripping when DII schools are scheduled.
As a FBS mid major UM I believe would ask for the same or a bit more for $ for seating and donations. The level of completion would go up to some degree, but offers a platform to build up to. We would be able to schedule OOC games with FBS majors and get revenue in for those games. Yes these games are most likely an L in the win, loss column, but would be much closer score wise than in past games.
I think at the FBS level we would suffer some knocks and losses for the first few years, but after building a bit be competitive and see our program improve. At DII we might be a king of the mountain for a while but would see our program decline to much less than what it is today.
We look to be coming to a cross roads and let's just hope and pray that UM has a plan in place to continue to improve on what has been built.
Maybe the Big Sky Conference can petition the NCAA to become an FBS conference and be a stepping stone conference much like the Sun Belt is in the East? Those in the BSC that do not at all want to be FBS can drop down to DII. I just do not know.....
If we somehow do not find ourselves in let's call it the mid majors FBS, will what is know know as FCS be DII?
Just a couple years ago App State did. Feasibility study and decided to stay FCS, as I recall the study showed it was not highly feasible. Has there been so much change that it now is, or is a matter of them knowing something is on the horizon that would put them in a worse place. I tend to believe it is both but mainly more of what's on the horizon.
I bet Jim O'Day still has a good many contacts he keeps in touch with in the AD world. It would be interesting to get his take on this.
For conversation sake. If the FCS level is dissolved would Griz fans rather be DII or FBS mid majors?
Personally I think if we had to go DII we would dominate for a few years but the brand of football would die off and after a few years the program.
I believe UM would still want to ask for $ for seating, donations etc just as they currently do. Fans and boosters would eventually cut back for paying to see lack of competition. In the end in this scenario UM suffers. We already hear gripping when DII schools are scheduled.
As a FBS mid major UM I believe would ask for the same or a bit more for $ for seating and donations. The level of completion would go up to some degree, but offers a platform to build up to. We would be able to schedule OOC games with FBS majors and get revenue in for those games. Yes these games are most likely an L in the win, loss column, but would be much closer score wise than in past games.
I think at the FBS level we would suffer some knocks and losses for the first few years, but after building a bit be competitive and see our program improve. At DII we might be a king of the mountain for a while but would see our program decline to much less than what it is today.
We look to be coming to a cross roads and let's just hope and pray that UM has a plan in place to continue to improve on what has been built.
Maybe the Big Sky Conference can petition the NCAA to become an FBS conference and be a stepping stone conference much like the Sun Belt is in the East? Those in the BSC that do not at all want to be FBS can drop down to DII. I just do not know.....
rimrockgriz
Well-known member
+1kemajic said:
rimrockgriz
Well-known member
Sometimes you have to just accept the system your in...(ncaa) and exploit it for your benefit. Not saying it's easy, but it's a common business model to attain the desired goal.Copper Griz said:
rimrockgriz
Well-known member
There's a ton of great posts here, some of it I'm familiar with an some of it I'm a guesser just as yourselves. The B.O.R. is not a group who has an agenda against us. I know 2 of them and I had a 2 hour face to face with one I had never met about 90 days ago. The problem at the time of this post is " P.. Wad " In or out I don't know the ramifications ?? He's polarizing at best. The current board is workable, but we need an action plan. I see this starting with a Samsonite for the prez. I've talked with some "big" donors down here in rimrockville and "seething" would best explain the sentiments for 'prez". In fact, the only way he could be perceived as anything other than a gauntlet is to be a crusader for taking us to F.B.S...(pigs are flying) I have to familiarize myself with the money part again. It was explained to me in detail about 4 yrs ago by a u.m. staffer. Maybe someone could explain "Majestic Plaza" addition to me? (start to finish) Like many positions in our society the 'prez" of a university had morphed into more of a "business" position...phd's still a must but if your a "sh!tty" businessman your institution will be compromised. 
The argument against moving up I have heard over and over is essentially "The first step towards failure is trying." They say if we move up we will lose, lose, lose. Maybe, but I hope they don't take that attitude towards life.
Another argument that grinds me is "We will never play for another Championship." The only team sport we have that has any chance of even winning a game, more than once a generation, in a championship tournament is football. If playing for a championship is all people care about, then what about our other sports? Should we be DII?
When people against moving up start talking about costs, that's when they get my attention. The amount of money needed just per year, then all the facility upgrades, etc. etc. I think this is a very legitimate argument.
But then when I start to think about the future of FCS. I start to worry that it wont be long until the NCAA is forcing us to reduce the number of scholarships and we will become more and more like DII. I don't want that either.
I would like the administrations stance to be "We are staying in the Big Sky, but we have plans in place to make a move if the right opportunity presents itself."
Another argument that grinds me is "We will never play for another Championship." The only team sport we have that has any chance of even winning a game, more than once a generation, in a championship tournament is football. If playing for a championship is all people care about, then what about our other sports? Should we be DII?
When people against moving up start talking about costs, that's when they get my attention. The amount of money needed just per year, then all the facility upgrades, etc. etc. I think this is a very legitimate argument.
But then when I start to think about the future of FCS. I start to worry that it wont be long until the NCAA is forcing us to reduce the number of scholarships and we will become more and more like DII. I don't want that either.
I would like the administrations stance to be "We are staying in the Big Sky, but we have plans in place to make a move if the right opportunity presents itself."
druhag said:
If you really think that then you are an idiot, The only way the NCAA forces anybody to reduce scholarships is through penalties and then it is for a limited time period or until the problem is fixed (APR)
For all the BS that the NCAA is and does, they are still in the business of promoting as many athletic scholarships and possible. If they were to force a group of teams to reduce scholarships is would be contrary to their basic mission statement. Absolutely NO ONE besides a few griztards have even suggested tha the NCAA would force schools to reduce schollarships
billings_poke
Well-known member
OrgonGriz said:
one difference is the Playoff Money that did not exist when Appy did its study. now the Sunbelt will receive at least $14 million from that to distribute to their teams. Another Million dollars a year fell into the Appy equation. Add in Appy FCS neighbors are moving up and they could get hurt in the recruiting department.
Appy AD said nothing about FCS going away just that it does not pay the bills as it is today and inferred that changes will have to be made
FargoBison
Well-known member
Cats2506 said:
The member schools set the scholarship ceilings and App State's president and the SoCon commissioner have both talked about cuts potentially coming. If FBS teams schedule fewer FCS teams it will be a certainty that they are cut...too many schools need those games for revenue.
This same thing happened to NDSU in DII...all the great schools left, a few remained and then the weaker ones drug NDSU to their level by cutting scholarships and regionalizing the playoffs. Because of that I doubt NDSU is going to be FCS much longer....it looks like history is starting to repeat itself.
FargoBison said:
Sorry, I knew there were idiots in Fargo too. Please provide a link or some other evidence where the NCAA forced those DII schools to reduce scholarships, yes, I know you can find examples where schools did reduce scholarships for financial reasons and some conferences have banned together for common reasons and move to a non-scholarship model. But nowhere has the NCAA FORCED a group of schools to drop scholarships. There may be changes coming but the NCAA will do whatever it can to provide schools that want to offer scholarships a way to do it, your example is a perfect case in point, NDSU was able to maintain their scholarship lever and increase it by moving to FCS while others around them decided for their own reasons to maintain or reduce athletic support. If you wanted to use NDSU's case as an example you should have shown that they were in fact forced by the NCAA to reduce scholarships and prohibited from moving to the FCS.
KoolMoeDee
Well-known member
Yes, the NCAA proposed scholarship cuts a couple years ago, but those cuts applied to both FBS and FCS. 85 to 80 and 63 to 60.
FargoBison
Well-known member
The schools that made up DII decided to cut scholarships multiple times and the same thing could likely happen to the FCS. A lot of FCS schools are barely scraping to get by and the strong schools are moving on. App State's AD talked about scholarships being cut to 50 across the FCS in their press conference.
DII scholarships went from 64 to 45 to 40 and then to 36(Where it has been for 20 or so years). NDSU was forced to reduce down to those limits because that is what the entire division voted to do.
DII scholarships went from 64 to 45 to 40 and then to 36(Where it has been for 20 or so years). NDSU was forced to reduce down to those limits because that is what the entire division voted to do.
Grizbeer
Well-known member
Cats2506 said:
It took about 30 seconds to find a link that showed teh NCAA has in teh past reduced scholarships, and considered it again last year:
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/01/ncaa_considers_cutting_footbal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And as the good FCS programs leave and the divsion continues to be watered down by DII additions, the liklyhood that FCS will vote to reduce schollies grows. And the BOR and RE would love it; solves a lot of Title 9 issues, too. The division already has non-schollie conferences. Doing nothing and waiting to see what will happen to you is moving down.FargoBison said:
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