Is our kicking game a coaching issue or talent issue?

[reinell30]

I say contact the girls socceer team and get one of their players. If Kathy Ireland can do it like in, unneccesary roughness, than we ought to have at least one girl who could...

 

[PlayerRep]

I do know Bobby Hauck placed a huge emphasis on special teams. He took every aspect of Special teams play very seriously. The GRIZ were always amongst the best in the nation in special teams play. We had great kicking, great return game, and great coverage teams that could be relied on. Hell look at the number of players he got to the NFL due to special teams play, including a damn good kicker in Dan Carpenter.

How difficult is it to hire a former player or coach from his staff to coach special teams here? Why not have our staff meet with BH in the off season to learn from him? Teams do this all the time to learn offenses and defenses. Why not special teams?

It is a combination of both coaching and players not executing. It starts with the coaches taking more time to learn what needs to be fixed and how to fix it? I honestly don't understand why this staff has been so committed to Lider? He has proven over and over he has no consistency, despite a strong leg. Greenberg appears to strike the ball consistently. I have no idea why Sullivan continues to wait for his chance. Of what we have seen so far, I think he has the most upside.

I honestly feel the staff needs to become more dedicated on kicking, and special teams play in general.

Ross Brunelle, the co-special teams coach, played all of his years for Bobby Hauck, and started his coaching career under Bobby.

I wonder if most his time is spent with TE's these days? On the "wired" video of him they played at the game, his title was TE coach. I have met Ross, and worked with him when he did summer camps. He is bright, works with kids well, etc. I just don't understand why all of special teams, but the our return game has been so inconsistent and bad the last few years, and continuing this season? It can't be the players. Players have moved on and we are still having the same issues and inconsistencies. This coaching staff needs to figure out where the problems start, and how to fix them.

This is a damn good team with a lot of depth. It would suck to fall short of expectations over special teams play alone. Our offense will improve. Our Defense appears to be the real deal so far this season, which is amazing considering so many losses at LB. Hell, the defense looks like the strength of this team right now. I wish I were more confident our special teams would become better and well rounded. I am sure the coverage teams will improve. Just really doubt drastic improvement in the kicking game.

He is very much involved with special teams and is in charge of some aspects of it. I spoke to him about this last week. I agree that special teams just has to improve. Coverage improved last week. The problems were the actually kicks.

 

[PlayerRep]

Do you realize that there had been no problem with our kicker/kickers until yesterday? Except for the bad snap and bad hold at Wyo., which caused a missed extra point and was not the kicker's fault, there had been no glitches.

Before yesterday, both FG's and all extra points had been made, except for the bad snap/hold. The Wyo. transfer had done most of the kickoffs and and done well. Greenberg had made everything. Then, yesterday, Greenberg hit the upright on a 46 yarder; not a bad kick. Then missed a 40 yarder wide right. Then Lider became the kicker in the second half and missed a 40 or so yarder badly. The Wyo. kid kicked the last extra point.

Yes, we haven't found a kicker. Yes, perhaps a huge problem. Yes, problems last year. But until yesterday, there hadn't been a problem. Let me know if I misremembered the facts.

Delusional much. The kicking game problems have never been resolved, hence, there has been huge problems with our kickers regardless of what you think by having one game out of three where they did not have any major issues.

The kicking unit as a whole has been a major problem so go ahead and sugar coat it by saying the Wyo. game wasn't the fault of the kicker. And Greenberg's two kicks were beyond bad, but maybe not as bad as Lider's kick that for the sake of how bad it looked hopefully it was tipped.

You dead wrong on Greenberg's 46 yard attempt. It was a very good looking kick, just inches too far to the right. Until the last game, no FG had been missed and no extra point has been missed this season, except for the bad snap/hold, which the coaches said was not the fault of the kicker. You can make up stuff all you want to support your arguments, but if I notice, I will correct your incorrect information.

 

[Griz90]

Isn't it just amazing that Griz fans are relegated to debating the kicking game on a message board because the coaching staff/talent isn't there to produce a quality place kicker. Maybe they should put up a field goal on the oval and have open tryouts. I don't care who kicks the ball as long as it goes through the uprights. It is AMAZING this is week four of the 2014 season and this problem has existed for an entire year. If we lose to the Bison this week because of this problem you will see Griz Nation explode like never before.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there who doesn't yet know that we've struggled in the kicking game? Show of hands? Anyone?

 

[PlayerRep]

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there who doesn't yet know that we've struggled in the kicking game? Show of hands? Anyone?

Is there anyone out there who doesn't realize that there have been only 2 truly bad kicks by placekickers kicking FG's and extra points so far this season?

 

[dupuyer griz]

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there who doesn't yet know that we've struggled in the kicking game? Show of hands? Anyone?

Is there anyone out there who doesn't realize that there have been only 2 truly bad kicks by placekickers kicking FG's and extra points so far this season?

You can say close and almost but all that matters is the numbers in the box score.

I have us at 10/11 on extra points and 2/5 on field goals. I realize snaps holds this that but we are 90.9% on xp and 40% on fg this year. Spin it how you want, I don't like either one of those numbers especially the fg number. I also know that we have not made 1 out of every 4 kicks that we have lined up for. That is a very troubling number. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to make some football shaped cookies, laces out of course. Goldang Dan Marino...

 

[George Ferguson]

I have a feeling if they could have kept Ben Worst, this thread wouldn't exist. I felt like Worst had TREMENDOUS upside. But he wanted a scholly, and the Griz couldn't/wouldn't give it to him.

Yes, BH was the special team's coach and a damn good one. But kicking is also ONLY one aspect of it, and I don't think anyone can say with absolute certainty that Lider or Greenberg would be ANY better kickers right now just because the Griz kicking and coverage teams were so good under Hauck. At SOME POINT, kickers have to shoulder the responsibility of missing kicks, even at the collegiate level. At the NFL level, they get fired, but that doesn't happen here. At least not until after the season is over.

I'm going out on a limb, but at this point, it's Sullivan's job to lose.

 

[PlayerRep]

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there who doesn't yet know that we've struggled in the kicking game? Show of hands? Anyone?

Is there anyone out there who doesn't realize that there have been only 2 truly bad kicks by placekickers kicking FG's and extra points so far this season?

You can say close and almost but all that matters is the numbers in the box score.

I have us at 10/11 on extra points and 2/5 on field goals. I realize snaps holds this that but we are 90.9% on xp and 40% on fg this year. Spin it how you want, I don't like either one of those numbers especially the fg number. I also know that we have not made 1 out of every 4 kicks that we have lined up for. That is a very troubling number. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to make some football shaped cookies, laces out of course. Goldang Dan Marino...

When discussing whether a kicker struck a kick well or not, then a well stuck kick was 46 that hits the upright is not horrible or ugly kick. Can you admit that?

Yes, you are correct on the stats, but you can't blame a kicker for a bad snap/hold. It isn't spin. That's a fact. Yes, a problem with the kicking game, but not the kicker. Can you admit that?

Don't understand your comment on how we haven't made 1 out every 4 kicks that were lined up for.

 

[PlayerRep]

I have a feeling if they could have kept Ben Worst, this thread wouldn't exist. I felt like Worst had TREMENDOUS upside. But he wanted a scholly, and the Griz couldn't/wouldn't give it to him.

Yes, BH was the special team's coach and a damn good one. But kicking is also ONLY one aspect of it, and I don't think anyone can say with absolute certainty that Lider or Greenberg would be ANY better kickers right now just because the Griz kicking and coverage teams were so good under Hauck. At SOME POINT, kickers have to shoulder the responsibility of missing kicks, even at the collegiate level. At the NFL level, they get fired, but that doesn't happen here. At least not until after the season is over.

I'm going out on a limb, but at this point, it's Sullivan's job to lose.

I agree with your second paragraph.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there who doesn't yet know that we've struggled in the kicking game? Show of hands? Anyone?

Is there anyone out there who doesn't realize that there have been only 2 truly bad kicks by placekickers kicking FG's and extra points so far this season?

You can say close and almost but all that matters is the numbers in the box score.

I have us at 10/11 on extra points and 2/5 on field goals. I realize snaps holds this that but we are 90.9% on xp and 40% on fg this year. Spin it how you want, I don't like either one of those numbers especially the fg number. I also know that we have not made 1 out of every 4 kicks that we have lined up for. That is a very troubling number. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to make some football shaped cookies, laces out of course. Goldang Dan Marino...

When discussing whether a kicker struck a kick well or not, then a well stuck kick was 46 that hits the upright is not horrible or ugly kick. Can you admit that?

Yes, you are correct on the stats, but you can't blame a kicker for a bad snap/hold. It isn't spin. That's a fact. Yes, a problem with the kicking game, but not the kicker. Can you admit that?

Don't understand your comment on how we haven't made 1 out every 4 kicks that were lined up for.

16 total kicks--12 made. that's 1 out of four missed.

 

[dupuyer griz]

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there who doesn't yet know that we've struggled in the kicking game? Show of hands? Anyone?

Is there anyone out there who doesn't realize that there have been only 2 truly bad kicks by placekickers kicking FG's and extra points so far this season?

You can say close and almost but all that matters is the numbers in the box score.

I have us at 10/11 on extra points and 2/5 on field goals. I realize snaps holds this that but we are 90.9% on xp and 40% on fg this year. Spin it how you want, I don't like either one of those numbers especially the fg number. I also know that we have not made 1 out of every 4 kicks that we have lined up for. That is a very troubling number. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to make some football shaped cookies, laces out of course. Goldang Dan Marino...

When discussing whether a kicker struck a kick well or not, then a well stuck kick was 46 that hits the upright is not horrible or ugly kick. Can you admit that?

Yes, you are correct on the stats, but you can't blame a kicker for a bad snap/hold. It isn't spin. That's a fact. Yes, a problem with the kicking game, but not the kicker. Can you admit that?

Don't understand your comment on how we haven't made 1 out every 4 kicks that were lined up for.

If I hit my driver 350 and miss by just a little bit and it goes ob, it is well struck and beautiful but costs me 2 strokes, not good. The same can be said for the punter for SD the other night, he smoked the hell out of that one punt, landed 15 rows into the stands. Didn't turn out well.

This thread is about kicking game, that's what I was going for, but also, the stats say the kickers missed.

The quote on 1/4 is 10/11 + 2/5 which is 12/16 combining xp and fg. 75% 1/4 missed.

 

[Fahque]

Every kicker is going to miss some kicks. Even some kicks that should be gimme kicks. The frustrating part is you can definitely tell which kickers have better form and which kick the ball better yet this coaching staff continually rotate the kickers instead of letting one of them get comfortable in the position and develop themselves. They're all kicking scared of getting benched. With all that said, I think the main kicking competition is between Sullivan and Greenberg with Sullivan having the stronger leg and better looking kicks thus far IMO. Lider just shouldn't be kicking XPs or FGs period.

 

[PlayerRep]

Is there anyone out there who doesn't realize that there have been only 2 truly bad kicks by placekickers kicking FG's and extra points so far this season?

You can say close and almost but all that matters is the numbers in the box score.

I have us at 10/11 on extra points and 2/5 on field goals. I realize snaps holds this that but we are 90.9% on xp and 40% on fg this year. Spin it how you want, I don't like either one of those numbers especially the fg number. I also know that we have not made 1 out of every 4 kicks that we have lined up for. That is a very troubling number. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to make some football shaped cookies, laces out of course. Goldang Dan Marino...

When discussing whether a kicker struck a kick well or not, then a well stuck kick was 46 that hits the upright is not horrible or ugly kick. Can you admit that?

Yes, you are correct on the stats, but you can't blame a kicker for a bad snap/hold. It isn't spin. That's a fact. Yes, a problem with the kicking game, but not the kicker. Can you admit that?

Don't understand your comment on how we haven't made 1 out every 4 kicks that were lined up for.

16 total kicks--12 made. that's 1 out of four missed.

Got it, but he didn't say 1 out of 4 were "missed". He said we haven't made 1 out of every 4, which I interpreted, initially, as being less than 25% made.

 

[PlayerRep]

Is there anyone out there who doesn't realize that there have been only 2 truly bad kicks by placekickers kicking FG's and extra points so far this season?

You can say close and almost but all that matters is the numbers in the box score.

I have us at 10/11 on extra points and 2/5 on field goals. I realize snaps holds this that but we are 90.9% on xp and 40% on fg this year. Spin it how you want, I don't like either one of those numbers especially the fg number. I also know that we have not made 1 out of every 4 kicks that we have lined up for. That is a very troubling number. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to make some football shaped cookies, laces out of course. Goldang Dan Marino...

When discussing whether a kicker struck a kick well or not, then a well stuck kick was 46 that hits the upright is not horrible or ugly kick. Can you admit that?

Yes, you are correct on the stats, but you can't blame a kicker for a bad snap/hold. It isn't spin. That's a fact. Yes, a problem with the kicking game, but not the kicker. Can you admit that?

Don't understand your comment on how we haven't made 1 out every 4 kicks that were lined up for.

If I hit my driver 350 and miss by just a little bit and it goes ob, it is well struck and beautiful but costs me 2 strokes, not good. The same can be said for the punter for SD the other night, he smoked the hell out of that one punt, landed 15 rows into the stands. Didn't turn out well.

This thread is about kicking game, that's what I was going for, but also, the stats say the kickers missed.

The quote on 1/4 is 10/11 + 2/5 which is 12/16 combining xp and fg. 75% 1/4 missed.

Good analogy with the golf drive. Here are the comments I have addressing. Greenberg's two kicks "were beyond bad". Greenberg's 2 kicks didn't look "all that great".

I say that Greenberg's first kick, as well as your long drive, actually looked pretty good, just hit the cross bar or barely went out. Gaeilage and I agree. He said this:

"I actually thought that Greenberg had a pretty decent delivery even though he missed the two field goals he tried. That 46 yard attempt in the first quarter was a pretty good kick. He just got unlucky.... His second attempt was not struck as well even though it was on line."

One question for you. Do you still think Greenberg's first kick was bad, or beyond bad? Yes, I know it hit the cross and didn't go through.

This is a smaller sub-debate. This doesn't mean the kicking game is good.

 

[dupuyer griz]

You can say close and almost but all that matters is the numbers in the box score.

I have us at 10/11 on extra points and 2/5 on field goals. I realize snaps holds this that but we are 90.9% on xp and 40% on fg this year. Spin it how you want, I don't like either one of those numbers especially the fg number. I also know that we have not made 1 out of every 4 kicks that we have lined up for. That is a very troubling number. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to make some football shaped cookies, laces out of course. Goldang Dan Marino...

When discussing whether a kicker struck a kick well or not, then a well stuck kick was 46 that hits the upright is not horrible or ugly kick. Can you admit that?

Yes, you are correct on the stats, but you can't blame a kicker for a bad snap/hold. It isn't spin. That's a fact. Yes, a problem with the kicking game, but not the kicker. Can you admit that?

Don't understand your comment on how we haven't made 1 out every 4 kicks that were lined up for.

If I hit my driver 350 and miss by just a little bit and it goes ob, it is well struck and beautiful but costs me 2 strokes, not good. The same can be said for the punter for SD the other night, he smoked the hell out of that one punt, landed 15 rows into the stands. Didn't turn out well.

This thread is about kicking game, that's what I was going for, but also, the stats say the kickers missed.

The quote on 1/4 is 10/11 + 2/5 which is 12/16 combining xp and fg. 75% 1/4 missed.

Good analogy with the golf drive. Here are the comments I have addressing. Greenberg's two kicks "were beyond bad". Greenberg's 2 kicks didn't look "all that great".

I say that Greenberg's first kick, as well as your long drive, actually looked pretty good, just hit the cross bar or barely went out. Gaeilage and I agree. He said this:

"I actually thought that Greenberg had a pretty decent delivery even though he missed the two field goals he tried. That 46 yard attempt in the first quarter was a pretty good kick. He just got unlucky.... His second attempt was not struck as well even though it was on line."

One question for you. Do you still think Greenberg's first kick was bad, or beyond bad? Yes, I know it hit the cross and didn't go through.

This is a smaller sub-debate. This doesn't mean the kicking game is good.

I don't believe in bad/beyond bad. You make it or you miss it. If Lider hit his low driver and bounced it off the helmet of the oncoming rush and it went through it goes in the stats as a good kick even though it could be argued that it was not a "good" kick. There's no stats for close, shit luck or almost.

 

[PlayerRep]

When discussing whether a kicker struck a kick well or not, then a well stuck kick was 46 that hits the upright is not horrible or ugly kick. Can you admit that?

Yes, you are correct on the stats, but you can't blame a kicker for a bad snap/hold. It isn't spin. That's a fact. Yes, a problem with the kicking game, but not the kicker. Can you admit that?

Don't understand your comment on how we haven't made 1 out every 4 kicks that were lined up for.

If I hit my driver 350 and miss by just a little bit and it goes ob, it is well struck and beautiful but costs me 2 strokes, not good. The same can be said for the punter for SD the other night, he smoked the hell out of that one punt, landed 15 rows into the stands. Didn't turn out well.

This thread is about kicking game, that's what I was going for, but also, the stats say the kickers missed.

The quote on 1/4 is 10/11 + 2/5 which is 12/16 combining xp and fg. 75% 1/4 missed.

Good analogy with the golf drive. Here are the comments I have addressing. Greenberg's two kicks "were beyond bad". Greenberg's 2 kicks didn't look "all that great".

I say that Greenberg's first kick, as well as your long drive, actually looked pretty good, just hit the cross bar or barely went out. Gaeilage and I agree. He said this:

"I actually thought that Greenberg had a pretty decent delivery even though he missed the two field goals he tried. That 46 yard attempt in the first quarter was a pretty good kick. He just got unlucky.... His second attempt was not struck as well even though it was on line."

One question for you. Do you still think Greenberg's first kick was bad, or beyond bad? Yes, I know it hit the cross and didn't go through.

This is a smaller sub-debate. This doesn't mean the kicking game is good.

I don't believe in bad/beyond bad. You make it or you miss it. If Lider hit his low driver and bounced it off the helmet of the oncoming rush and it went through it goes in the stats as a good kick even though it could be argued that it was not a "good" kick. There's no stats for close, shit luck or almost.

I don't care what you believe in, just answer the question. Was it well-struck and a pretty good kick, or not, in your view? Everyone knows the 46 yarder was a miss. No one is arguing that it was good. No one is arguing stats. If you refuse to respond, I will take that as agreement with me. I'm not going to let you be evasive on this.

 

[dupuyer griz]

If I hit my driver 350 and miss by just a little bit and it goes ob, it is well struck and beautiful but costs me 2 strokes, not good. The same can be said for the punter for SD the other night, he smoked the hell out of that one punt, landed 15 rows into the stands. Didn't turn out well.

This thread is about kicking game, that's what I was going for, but also, the stats say the kickers missed.

The quote on 1/4 is 10/11 + 2/5 which is 12/16 combining xp and fg. 75% 1/4 missed.

Good analogy with the golf drive. Here are the comments I have addressing. Greenberg's two kicks "were beyond bad". Greenberg's 2 kicks didn't look "all that great".

I say that Greenberg's first kick, as well as your long drive, actually looked pretty good, just hit the cross bar or barely went out. Gaeilage and I agree. He said this:

"I actually thought that Greenberg had a pretty decent delivery even though he missed the two field goals he tried. That 46 yard attempt in the first quarter was a pretty good kick. He just got unlucky.... His second attempt was not struck as well even though it was on line."

One question for you. Do you still think Greenberg's first kick was bad, or beyond bad? Yes, I know it hit the cross and didn't go through.

This is a smaller sub-debate. This doesn't mean the kicking game is good.

I don't believe in bad/beyond bad. You make it or you miss it. If Lider hit his low driver and bounced it off the helmet of the oncoming rush and it went through it goes in the stats as a good kick even though it could be argued that it was not a "good" kick. There's no stats for close, shit luck or almost.

I don't care what you believe in, just answer the question. Was it well-struck and a pretty good kick, or not, in your view? Everyone knows the 46 yarder was a miss. No one is arguing that it was good. No one is arguing stats. If you refuse to respond, I will take that as agreement with me. I'm not going to let you be evasive on this.

I thought it was pretty damn clear. The stats say miss, it is a BAD kick. I don't know how you could have possibly missed in everything I said that I thought it was bad. I have no room for gray here and if gray makes you feel better then that is great. As it stands we had a good 28-20 win Saturday, but you know what would have really settled in and made me feel good? A 37-20 win with 3 good field goals. After all, almost is good in horseshoes, but if I ring one up your close isn't worth crap.

 

[George Ferguson]

Dupyer, by that rationale, you don't EVER say "the Griz got lucky, and ALMOST lost"? right? There's absolutely NO SUCH THING as an ALMOST LOSS? right? A win, is a win is a win is a win whether the head coach was Don Read or Mick Delaney. Correct?

I'll answer PR's question. Greenburg made a solid boot with the one that hit the upright. Hitting the upright means it had the distance, that he has the leg, and that he struck it well from that distance. It was a well struck kick and at least everybody in the section I was in was ready to cheer thinking it was good.

 

[PlayerRep]

Good analogy with the golf drive. Here are the comments I have addressing. Greenberg's two kicks "were beyond bad". Greenberg's 2 kicks didn't look "all that great".

I say that Greenberg's first kick, as well as your long drive, actually looked pretty good, just hit the cross bar or barely went out. Gaeilage and I agree. He said this:

"I actually thought that Greenberg had a pretty decent delivery even though he missed the two field goals he tried. That 46 yard attempt in the first quarter was a pretty good kick. He just got unlucky.... His second attempt was not struck as well even though it was on line."

One question for you. Do you still think Greenberg's first kick was bad, or beyond bad? Yes, I know it hit the cross and didn't go through.

This is a smaller sub-debate. This doesn't mean the kicking game is good.

I don't believe in bad/beyond bad. You make it or you miss it. If Lider hit his low driver and bounced it off the helmet of the oncoming rush and it went through it goes in the stats as a good kick even though it could be argued that it was not a "good" kick. There's no stats for close, shit luck or almost.

I don't care what you believe in, just answer the question. Was it well-struck and a pretty good kick, or not, in your view? Everyone knows the 46 yarder was a miss. No one is arguing that it was good. No one is arguing stats. If you refuse to respond, I will take that as agreement with me. I'm not going to let you be evasive on this.

I thought it was pretty damn clear. The stats say miss, it is a BAD kick. I don't know how you could have possibly missed in everything I said that I thought it was bad. I have no room for gray here and if gray makes you feel better then that is great. As it stands we had a good 28-20 win Saturday, but you know what would have really settled in and made me feel good? A 37-20 win with 3 good field goals. After all, almost is good in horseshoes, but if I ring one up your close isn't worth crap.

This confirms what I've though all along, and that is that you often don't know what you're talking about. Sure, every pass that isn't caught is a bad pass or beyond bad pass. Every race that isn't won is a bad race or beyond bad race. Every shot that doesn't go in the basket is a bad shot or beyond bad shot. Every hockey shot that doesn't go in the net or is saved is a bad shot or beyond bad shot. Every gun shot that doesn't kill an animal is a bad shot or beyond bad shot.