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Is Montana Next

grizcountry420 said:
PlayerRep said:
zulacatfan said:
jcu27 said:
You are trying to compare the two. Two complete different situations. And you are assuming there's a cover up at UM. Where's the proof?
That's why the NCAA is investigating, to see if there was a cover up, behind the scenes...which there may not be any public knowledge of yet aka no proof ...not many people three months ago would have guess Joe Pa knew what he knew.

What did Joe Pa know? Just curious as to what you think he knew.

:fuel:

PR, you are slipping. He knew of Sandusky rumored to have sexually assaulted children. Even if he only heard of 1, that is 1 too many to not take action on, and keep from outside the university. If anyone told me of a possible child sex related crime, with anyone. I would report what I heard to local authorities, no matter how it impacted me, and what I care about.

Plain and simple, the crimes Sandusky did, were as sick, and demented as crimes get. I do not care who you are, if you hear of a crime like these, for the Sake of God, Report it to public officials!!!
 
...blazphemy..that's the only thing you can call it...
...to mention the griz in the same sentence with penn st...
...the penn st. guy/guyz are the biggezt scum bagz of all time...
...they got the butt fcuking the deserved..and trust me..no pun intended...

... 8-) ...
 
mtgrizrule said:
grizcountry420 said:
PlayerRep said:
zulacatfan said:
That's why the NCAA is investigating, to see if there was a cover up, behind the scenes...which there may not be any public knowledge of yet aka no proof ...not many people three months ago would have guess Joe Pa knew what he knew.

What did Joe Pa know? Just curious as to what you think he knew.

:fuel:

PR, you are slipping. He knew of Sandusky rumored to have sexually assaulted children. Even if he only heard of 1, that is 1 too many to not take action on, and keep from outside the university. If anyone told me of a possible child sex related crime, with anyone. I would report what I heard to local authorities, no matter how it impacted me, and what I care about.

Plain and simple, the crimes Sandusky did, were as sick, and demented as crimes get. I do not care who you are, if you hear of a crime like these, for the Sake of God, Report it to public officials!!!

Nope, I read the entire Freeh report and saw no indication that Paterno knew of any rumors. He appears, from emails, to have been made aware of the 1998 investigation, for which no charges were brought by the prosecutor and one counselor concluded that no sexual assault had occurred. Obviously, the authorities knew of that incident, because they investigated it. He knew what McQueary told him in 2001, and even McQuery has indicated that he wasn't explicit with Paterno. While Freeh concludes that Paterno was part of the cover up in 2001, the only evidence cited is a single email in which the AD said he talked to Joe. The email doesn't say what they talked about, or what Joe said. Based on that email, and the fact that Paterno was a huge figure at PSU, Freeh jumped to the conclusion that Paterno must have been involved with the cover up. No person told Freeh that Paterno was part of the cover up or pushed to not report Sandusky to authorities in 2001.
 
Just read this on the Missoulian. :shock:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/um...cle_c2f89422-d534-11e1-815a-001a4bcf887a.html

With crushing NCAA penalties imposed Monday upon Penn State football, attention now turns to the University of Montana, struggling with a sexual assault crisis of its own and under NCAA scrutiny for the past six months.

“The school should be on the watch,” Michael McCann, director of the Sports Law Institute at Vermont Law School, said Monday. “The Penn State sanction is a warning to the school.”

Likewise David Ridpath, an assistant professor of sports management at Ohio University, said sanctions against Penn State portend some action against Montana.

“The NCAA just can’t look only at Penn State if they take this leap,” said Ridpath, author of “Tainted Glory: Marshall University, the NCAA, and One Man’s Fight for Justice.”

The NCAA has not said what brought its investigators to UM. But the school also is under investigation by the U.S. Justice Department for how it handles reports of rape and sexual assault, and the U.S. Department of Education has its own investigation into allegations of harassment by members of the football team.

UM President Royce Engstrom said Monday he hasn’t heard from the NCAA since the organization notified him Jan. 30 of its investigation into unspecified allegations. At that point, the NCAA said such investigations usually take about six months.

“I don’t know how strictly they adhere to those timelines they set for themselves,” Engstrom said. “I think until we hear from the NCAA we are just going to go about improving things the way that I’ve discussed throughout this.”

“This” is a situation revealed in December at UM, with allegations that two female students, possibly drugged, were raped by several male students. UM commissioned an independent review that turned up several other allegations of rape and sexual assault involving students, some of them football players.

At Penn State, an investigation released this month found that famed football coach Joe Paterno, who died in January, concealed allegations about Jerry Sandusky, a former coaching staff member found guilty of sexually abusing 10 boys over 15 years.

While the NCAA stopped short of imposing the “death penalty” that would have shut down Penn State’s football program, the steps it took Monday were devastating.

It fined the university $60 million, imposed a four-year ban on postseason games, cut the number of football scholarships, and negated all football victories since 1998.

“The situations (at Penn State and UM) are so totally different that it just doesn’t make any sense to compare them,” Engstrom said.
***

But Katherine Redmond, founder of the National Coalition Against Violent Athletes, called them “very similar cases – just with different victims.”

“They’ve allowed this culture” that elevated football over the concerns of victims, she said of both UM and Penn State. At Penn State, that attitude was concentrated in Paterno, she said, but at Montana, “this was all of the administration and everybody falling into line … wanting to do what was ‘best’ for the team and the athletic department.”


The investigation into Penn State by former FBI director Louis Freeh found that Paterno tried to protect the school’s reputation.

When the alleged gang rapes at UM originally came to light in December, then-Vice President Jim Foley described them as “date rapes” and later, in an email obtained in a joint FOIA request by the Missoulian and the Wall Street Journal, complained about media accounts that didn’t use his preferred term. In another email, he questioned whether a victim who had spoken publicly about her ordeal had violated the Student Code of Conduct.

Engstrom announced last month that Foley had resigned as vice president, although he will retain his university job and nearly $126,000 salary through the end of his contract in June 2013.

And in March, Engstrom fired UM football coach Robin Pflugrad and athletic director Jim O’Day without explanation.

Engstrom pointed out Monday that even before the NCAA and two federal agencies began their investigations at UM, the school revamped its Student Athlete Code of Conduct and mandated sexual assault education for all students.

“All we can do is march forward with what we know are the right things to do,” he said.

Only one UM student faces a criminal charge in connection with the alleged sexual assaults involving students.

Beau Donaldson, a UM Grizzlies running back, awaits trial on a single count of sexual intercourse without consent. In March, a Missoula woman accused Grizzlies quarterback Jordan Johnson of rape, but the Missoula County Attorney’s Office has not decided whether he’ll be charged.

(The County Attorney’s Office, along with the UM Public Safety Office, also are being investigated by the Justice Department for how they handle sexual assault reports.)

A case involving the expulsion of an unnamed student accused of rape is on appeal to the university court.
 
ALPHAGRIZ1 said:
The denial in this fan base is fu*king EPIC............................





:coffee:

It is Alpha, but you have to admit we haven't been given many particulars. We have to be skeptical until we see the evidence. There sure is a lot of smoke though.
 
I remember when Washington got neutered in the mid nineties for something stupid because the PAC 10 got tired of them kicking everyones ass. I just hope the same doesn't happen here at UM because of the timing of this PSU crap and politics.
 
grizman71 said:
Just read this on the Missoulian. :shock:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/um...cle_c2f89422-d534-11e1-815a-001a4bcf887a.html

With crushing NCAA penalties imposed Monday upon Penn State football, attention now turns to the University of Montana, struggling with a sexual assault crisis of its own and under NCAA scrutiny for the past six months.

“The school should be on the watch,” Michael McCann, director of the Sports Law Institute at Vermont Law School, said Monday. “The Penn State sanction is a warning to the school.”

Likewise David Ridpath, an assistant professor of sports management at Ohio University, said sanctions against Penn State portend some action against Montana.

“The NCAA just can’t look only at Penn State if they take this leap,” said Ridpath, author of “Tainted Glory: Marshall University, the NCAA, and One Man’s Fight for Justice.”

The NCAA has not said what brought its investigators to UM. But the school also is under investigation by the U.S. Justice Department for how it handles reports of rape and sexual assault, and the U.S. Department of Education has its own investigation into allegations of harassment by members of the football team.

UM President Royce Engstrom said Monday he hasn’t heard from the NCAA since the organization notified him Jan. 30 of its investigation into unspecified allegations. At that point, the NCAA said such investigations usually take about six months.

“I don’t know how strictly they adhere to those timelines they set for themselves,” Engstrom said. “I think until we hear from the NCAA we are just going to go about improving things the way that I’ve discussed throughout this.”

“This” is a situation revealed in December at UM, with allegations that two female students, possibly drugged, were raped by several male students. UM commissioned an independent review that turned up several other allegations of rape and sexual assault involving students, some of them football players.

At Penn State, an investigation released this month found that famed football coach Joe Paterno, who died in January, concealed allegations about Jerry Sandusky, a former coaching staff member found guilty of sexually abusing 10 boys over 15 years.

While the NCAA stopped short of imposing the “death penalty” that would have shut down Penn State’s football program, the steps it took Monday were devastating.

It fined the university $60 million, imposed a four-year ban on postseason games, cut the number of football scholarships, and negated all football victories since 1998.

“The situations (at Penn State and UM) are so totally different that it just doesn’t make any sense to compare them,” Engstrom said.
***

But Katherine Redmond, founder of the National Coalition Against Violent Athletes, called them “very similar cases – just with different victims.”

“They’ve allowed this culture” that elevated football over the concerns of victims, she said of both UM and Penn State. At Penn State, that attitude was concentrated in Paterno, she said, but at Montana, “this was all of the administration and everybody falling into line … wanting to do what was ‘best’ for the team and the athletic department.”


The investigation into Penn State by former FBI director Louis Freeh found that Paterno tried to protect the school’s reputation.

When the alleged gang rapes at UM originally came to light in December, then-Vice President Jim Foley described them as “date rapes” and later, in an email obtained in a joint FOIA request by the Missoulian and the Wall Street Journal, complained about media accounts that didn’t use his preferred term. In another email, he questioned whether a victim who had spoken publicly about her ordeal had violated the Student Code of Conduct.

Engstrom announced last month that Foley had resigned as vice president, although he will retain his university job and nearly $126,000 salary through the end of his contract in June 2013.

And in March, Engstrom fired UM football coach Robin Pflugrad and athletic director Jim O’Day without explanation.

Engstrom pointed out Monday that even before the NCAA and two federal agencies began their investigations at UM, the school revamped its Student Athlete Code of Conduct and mandated sexual assault education for all students.

“All we can do is march forward with what we know are the right things to do,” he said.

Only one UM student faces a criminal charge in connection with the alleged sexual assaults involving students.

Beau Donaldson, a UM Grizzlies running back, awaits trial on a single count of sexual intercourse without consent. In March, a Missoula woman accused Grizzlies quarterback Jordan Johnson of rape, but the Missoula County Attorney’s Office has not decided whether he’ll be charged.

(The County Attorney’s Office, along with the UM Public Safety Office, also are being investigated by the Justice Department for how they handle sexual assault reports.)

A case involving the expulsion of an unnamed student accused of rape is on appeal to the university court.

So what is taking so long? We are past the 6 month point. Good, bad, or indifferent, I want to know.
 
ALPHAGRIZ1 said:
The denial in this fan base is fu*king EPIC............................





:coffee:

Alpha, considering what most us know, what more is there, we are denying? If you don't want to, or cannot get into specifics, do you expect/know more will come out of an NCAA investigation, etc?
 
PlayerRep said:
mtgrizrule said:
grizcountry420 said:
PlayerRep said:
What did Joe Pa know? Just curious as to what you think he knew.

:fuel:

PR, you are slipping. He knew of Sandusky rumored to have sexually assaulted children. Even if he only heard of 1, that is 1 too many to not take action on, and keep from outside the university. If anyone told me of a possible child sex related crime, with anyone. I would report what I heard to local authorities, no matter how it impacted me, and what I care about.

Plain and simple, the crimes Sandusky did, were as sick, and demented as crimes get. I do not care who you are, if you hear of a crime like these, for the Sake of God, Report it to public officials!!!

Nope, I read the entire Freeh report and saw no indication that Paterno knew of any rumors. He appears, from emails, to have been made aware of the 1998 investigation, for which no charges were brought by the prosecutor and one counselor concluded that no sexual assault had occurred. Obviously, the authorities knew of that incident, because they investigated it. He knew what McQueary told him in 2001, and even McQuery has indicated that he wasn't explicit with Paterno. While Freeh concludes that Paterno was part of the cover up in 2001, the only evidence cited is a single email in which the AD said he talked to Joe. The email doesn't say what they talked about, or what Joe said. Based on that email, and the fact that Paterno was a huge figure at PSU, Freeh jumped to the conclusion that Paterno must have been involved with the cover up. No person told Freeh that Paterno was part of the cover up or pushed to not report Sandusky to authorities in 2001.

Yeah right, and Tru and Kemp did not deserve to be tased by Missoula police too. Kemp never even breathed on that officer! :roll:
 
I suppose we need to wait and see what's released.

The way I see that PSU was really hit hard on was a total departmental failure - knowing about boys being raped by Jerry Sandusky since 1998 and turning a blind eye to it - out of a presumed need to continue to win games, side effects be damned.

As I understand it at the UM we have a sexual assault claim that was thrown out by the police and UM court in 2010 (thus officials were properly notified). We had an alleged assault that might've been/maybe was/could've had athletes invovled, turns out it was probably just athletes were at a large party there, nothing comes of it. We have a single football player arrested and waiting charges and we have one being investigated. This clearly points to a problem.

What is unknown was if there was a cover-up at the UM by the coaches/AD/Main hall to let this all get swept under the rug in an effort to keep winning football games. If there was, then there's some similarities, yes. However actions were taken when arrests were made and charges/claims were filed (suspensions either temporary or permanant). This wasn't something kept secret and allowed to continue for years and years.

Finally one other thing - the NCAA has acted after a court found Sandusky guilty, granted there was a full investigation already pending. But they clearly acted once a court had proven without a doubt that Sandusky did commit these horrid acts.

No court has (yet) found any Grizzly football player, coach, or athletic department employee guilty of any actions or cover-ups. If that happens then the NCAA has more grounds to base even stronger sanctions against the UM.

This case at Penn State does set a big prescedent and UM will feel it's effects. I hope for the sake of being a fan that it's minimal, but if there have been cover-up actions then I would expect something pretty bad agains the UM as well.
 
BWahlberg said:
I suppose we need to wait and see what's released.

The way I see that PSU was really hit hard on was a total departmental failure - knowing about boys being raped by Jerry Sandusky since 1998 and turning a blind eye to it - out of a presumed need to continue to win games, side effects be damned.

As I understand it at the UM we have a sexual assault claim that was thrown out by the police and UM court in 2010 (thus officials were properly notified). We had an alleged assault that might've been/maybe was/could've had athletes invovled, turns out it was probably just athletes were at a large party there, nothing comes of it. We have a single football player arrested and waiting charges and we have one being investigated. This clearly points to a problem.

What is unknown was if there was a cover-up at the UM by the coaches/AD/Main hall to let this all get swept under the rug in an effort to keep winning football games. If there was, then there's some similarities, yes. However actions were taken when arrests were made and charges/claims were filed (suspensions either temporary or permanant). This wasn't something kept secret and allowed to continue for years and years.

Finally one other thing - the NCAA has acted after a court found Sandusky guilty, granted there was a full investigation already pending. But they clearly acted once a court had proven without a doubt that Sandusky did commit these horrid acts.

No court has (yet) found any Grizzly football player, coach, or athletic department employee guilty of any actions or cover-ups. If that happens then the NCAA has more grounds to base even stronger sanctions against the UM.

This case at Penn State does set a big prescedent and UM will feel it's effects. I hope for the sake of being a fan that it's minimal, but if there have been cover-up actions then I would expect something pretty bad agains the UM as well.
I agree. The real problem arises for most of us by the unexplained actions taken by the University President who, through thorough mismanagement has given cause for concern where they may or may not be justified. I have never seen a more inept executive action. It raises more questions and appears to solve nothing. Sometimes, openess is the best policy. With so much not being said by Engstrom, I fear the worst. I hope I am wrong.
 
Ironically, I think Emmert will be known as the man who presided over the demise of the NCAA. He imposes this penalty without their own investigation or the following of their own bylaws, this is unprecedented, taking action on a report by a third party. He could now justify any penalty to UM using the Barz paper.

If anyone thinks that the Big Football dogs haven't noticed they are delusional. Do you think the phones won't be ringing off the hook at Tuscaloosa, Baton Rouge, etc., etc. Emmert has set himself up as judge, jury and executioner, able to act outside the normal NCAA bounds.

I certainly wouldn't argue Penn State should not be punished. Joe is dead and others will most likely be going to prison beside Sandusky for their obstruction of justice, we will see once they are tried. But Emmert is killing their program without even giving those running it now a chance to defend themselves.He's basically a dictator at this point.

Before today I figured they big 64, 78, 80, 96 or whatever football schools would eventually form their own organization seperate from the NCAA (for football) in the next ten years. Now I think it will be a much quicker timetable, say 4 or 5 years. The NCAA needs these schools more than they need the NCAA. W/O these schools the March Madness payday (8 billion over 10 years, not sure of the EXACT amount) is gone if the Big Dogs aren't there. Being that primarily funds the NCAA operations so the future doesn't look good for Emmert's bunch.

Certainly haven't made up my mind if it's good or bad, but these programs won't let Emmert determine their fate after this incident for whatever reason he deems appropriate as he has done in this case. Seems to me this a no brainer.

If he acts similarly in regards to our program on hearsay it will just affirm everyone's suspicion. This dude is as stinky as coaches like the Arizona dude who went to 3 programs in 3 years. LSU/UW/NCAA on a similar timeline. He's a politician and his bluff will be called by those with the dough to call bullshit. In a couple years when the current scandal is out of the general public's collective this IS going down.
 
Spanky said:
Good old state college fans chomping at the bit for bad things to happen to UM....

This is simply not true. Please don't lump us all together. Cat fans went through this a few years ago, but our players were charged and convicted of murder and our players and coaches charged and convicted of drug trafficking. Anyone who is "happy" about bad things happening to opposing players, or their program as a whole, isn't worthy to cheer for any team. You get the worst of the Cat fans trolling and posting on your board. I just want to know what is going on. If a crime was done, the guilty will pay the piper. If not, I look forward to the thread entitled, "Griz players cleared." Seriously, the world is not separated into "Good people" and "Cat fans." And that is exactly what your post implies. Target the Delta Bravos, and let the rest of us enjoy browsing your site in peace. I have never, in more the than two years since I joined, said a fowl thing about the Griz program. Look at my posts if you don't believe me. I resent being chucked into the "box of idiots" with some Cat fans who are stupid. I just love football.
 
Based on what is publicly known at this point I'll be surprised if the NCAA finds anything other than very, very minor infractions. RE's firings of coach/AD really had me worried but his (and his underlings) subsequent mismanagement of public relations, the veteran scholly fiasco, etc. has me convinced that he doesn't have all the skills necessary to be leading UM.
 
bigsky33 said:
I don't think any fans are chomping at the bit for something bad at UM. I think it's just the opposite. If something goes down it will be horrible for our State and the Big Sky Conference. It will hurt both Montana programs. You may be a fan of one school or the other but I think we all take pride in that we have two excellent programs in our State. We all hope it stays that way!


Very good post! :clap:
 
I have no idea what has actually happened at the University of Montana, and I'm not saying this is the same situation as Penn State, but I would like to provide my opinion on how it appears from an outsider's perspective.

1. Foley attempting to make people refer to the alleged "gang rape" as a "date rape" makes it seem like he was attempting to downplay the situation.

2. Foley questioning whether the alleged victim violated the Student Code of Conduct by speaking publicly about the situation makes it seem like he was attempting to keep the situation quiet.

3. Pflugrad's comments about JJ after his return to practice in the midst of what was going on seemed inappropriate. Maybe he had additional information and somehow knew that JJ did nothing wrong, but with the little information that outsiders like me knew, it just came across wrong. I'm not saying that JJ is guilty or innocent, but saying that someone that has just been accused of rape has "tremendous moral fiber" just does not sit right with me.

These 3 things alone make the situation seem like certain people at the University were attempting to downplay the situation. Maybe it just comes across this way because the media has spinned it that way. Maybe these are the only things that occurred, or maybe there are more things that the coaches/administration were aware of that did not get reported. As I said before, I am coming at this from an outsider's perspective, and I have absolutely no inside information on this.

Before someone responds that I am just wanting bad things to happen to UM because I am a fan of NDSU, that is completely wrong. My wife went to UM, and I cheer for UM in every game where they are not playing NDSU. I hope the investigation finds that everyone at UM handled everything properly. This is just my perspective on how things have come across so far without having an inside information.
 
We all obviously love the Griz & want the outcomes of the investigations to be positive. I'm not trying to be a pessimist here, but you all may want to prepare for a shitstorm to come down. I can't help but think for Phlu & O'Day to be "relieved of duty" the way they were, there is something we don't know about that's much more serious than we are imagining right now. The speculation on this is rampant. You all should have a beer & a shot & try to relax a little bit.
 
bisonboone11 said:
I have no idea what has actually happened at the University of Montana, and I'm not saying this is the same situation as Penn State, but I would like to provide my opinion on how it appears from an outsider's perspective.

1. Foley attempting to make people refer to the alleged "gang rape" as a "date rape" makes it seem like he was attempting to downplay the situation.

2. Foley questioning whether the alleged victim violated the Student Code of Conduct by speaking publicly about the situation makes it seem like he was attempting to keep the situation quiet.

3. Pflugrad's comments about JJ after his return to practice in the midst of what was going on seemed inappropriate. Maybe he had additional information and somehow knew that JJ did nothing wrong, but with the little information that outsiders like me knew, it just came across wrong. I'm not saying that JJ is guilty or innocent, but saying that someone that has just been accused of rape has "tremendous moral fiber" just does not sit right with me.

These 3 things alone make the situation seem like certain people at the University were attempting to downplay the situation. Maybe it just comes across this way because the media has spinned it that way. Maybe these are the only things that occurred, or maybe there are more things that the coaches/administration were aware of that did not get reported. As I said before, I am coming at this from an outsider's perspective, and I have absolutely no inside information on this.

Before someone responds that I am just wanting bad things to happen to UM because I am a fan of NDSU, that is completely wrong. My wife went to UM, and I cheer for UM in every game where they are not playing NDSU. I hope the investigation finds that everyone at UM handled everything properly. This is just my perspective on how things have come across so far without having an inside information.

Here are some responses, in the order you presented them. After you read this, and see the facts, it would be great if you would respond.

1. This "gang" rape turned out not to be a gang rape, nor was it a rape. The police declined to prosecute it twice, apparently due to lack of evidence, and, according to posts on this board and the rumor mill, the students won the university panel case in a 7-0 vote.

2. The university code requires university proceedings to be kept confidential. The woman had talked to the Missoulian about the university proceeding while the proceeding was pending, and was quoted in an article. Foley, in an internal email, asked if the woman was allowed to talk publicly about the university proceeding.

3. I can see your point. Note, however, that Pflu had apparently known JJ and his parents for many years, as Pflu was from Oregon and had coached in Oregon for a number of years. I assume Pflu also had better information about the facts than the most of us.

4. Yes, when the media mischaracterizes and overblows so many things, it leaves many people with the wrong impression.

Thanks for your post on views from afar.
 

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