Is Montana Next

[Grizbacker1]

Tnt why don't you go back to the shit box? There's no way in hell you are a Griz fan. All you do is try to put UM down as much as you can. And usually your posts are not accurate and misleading. You have by passed every egriz poster has the biggest douche on here. Go crawl back under your rock Gwen.

actually growler1,. who is STEVE DILL will always be the biggest (for a short prick) D bag on the planet

 

[PTGrizzly]

Just out of curiosity, how many incidents were covered up at PSU? I realize sandusky was convicted of a number, but how much did they know? If I am reading everything correctly, not many....... if only ONE??? Again isn't it the culture of winning that is on trial???

This was why PSU accepted the NCAA's penalty. If they hadn't, the NCAA would have kept on investigating. It's pretty obvious, if PSU was willing to cover up child rape, they were clearly covering up recruiting violations, grade changes and probably some criminal activity.

 

[Grizaholic16]

The only issue I have with all of this cover up talk, is that the victims in these cases would be grown women. At PSU they were children that didn't know any better. If there is a cover up, why are these grown women not taking action? The University wouldn't dare pay off any victim for the sake of the football program; and I highly doubt the University AND MPD would turn a blind eye to rape allegations for years. The way I see it, if a woman decided not to report a sexual assault or a rape, than that is their own fault based off of their judgement. This may be brash thought churning out of my brain, but it makes me mad to think there would some how be a cover up of rape when the victims involved are woman that should know they have a right to report these things and feel safe as a result of reporting. But I hope that all of this gets solved in a timely fashion because I do not like all of the skeptics coming out on the extreme sides of the argument.

I would like to say that if the University did have some massive cover up for years without it ever getting out, then I hope the NCAA does give us a deserving punishment. But at this point, I can't see any correlation to a massive cover up besides what we've seen the past 1.5 years.

 

[GrizLA]

Until this University President becomes more forthcoming there will be no end to speculation. He appears to have grossly mismanaged this situation, and the Saudi student thing. How did he really get this job? There are secrets within secrets up there, apparently. Not stepping up and explaining what, how and why has been proven to be a failed policy. Is there any reason to NOT suspect the worst?

 

[mlbowl]

3. Pflugrad's comments about JJ after his return to practice in the midst of what was going on seemed inappropriate. Maybe he had additional information and somehow knew that JJ did nothing wrong, but with the little information that outsiders like me knew, it just came across wrong. I'm not saying that JJ is guilty or innocent, but saying that someone that has just been accused of rape has "tremendous moral fiber" just does not sit right with me.

Why would this not sit right with you? (unless you feel he is guilty)...As someone has already posted, Pflugrad has known this young man and his family for quite some time. Speaking about the character of someone you feel has been wrongly accused doesn't seem that out of line to me.

 

[FCS Go!]

... Is there any reason to NOT suspect the worst?

My feeling is that the crisis has been so poorly managed on RE's part that there is an equal chance that he is overreacting but, like you said, we really don't know anything and won't until the three investigations are over.

 

[FCS Go!]

Why would this not sit right with you? (unless you feel he is guilty)...As someone has already posted, Pflugrad has known this young man and his family for quite some time. Speaking about the character of someone you feel has been wrongly accused doesn't seem that out of line to me.

It is poor crisis management by a public figure representing the University. We all know the variables and details of the situation but the average person, maybe the average Griz fan, doesn't. All they know is that the QB is accused of rape and UM is publicly dismissing the accusation and letting the QB play anyway. Pflu should have chosen his words more carefully. Instead he gave the haters more evidence that Griz football sees itself as above the rest of the school and the community. Public perception matters in situations like this. Pflu and to a much greater extent, RE have failed miserably on that account.

 

[tnt]

There is an interesting culture not only on Campus but within the City Police department. The bulk of the leadership the last few years are all pretty similar in belief (also members of the same church) (leadership flows downhill. Pretty much the prevailing thought is that in most circumstances rape was the fault of the victim, and generally could have been avoided. The "hand out" is no joke. Women are discouraged from the reporting to through the investigation and on. Sadly what they are being told is true. Like it or not you will find that confirmed by the bulk of women who have gone through the reporting process, SARCS etc as well as the counselors and folks working these Community Programs. Attitude don't change quickly. And while most would find abhorrent forcible rape, and even well meaning folk explaining to these women what they are up against, there is enough victim blaming attitude left that an environment of sexual harassment is present. The DOE has swung the pendelum a bit too far but everybody had better get used to the idea and soon. Everybody will be on the train including the NCAA.

Most of you are too young to remember the wacking the NCAA got nearly 35 years over title IX, but I can promise you the NCAA hasn't. Whether a few of you like the idea there is always a counterview just as extreme as rabid fandom, you had better console yourself, no program since the 20's (as someone else put it) where the culture of winning has become more prevalent than the education mission of the colleges and universities has ever failed to be wacked and wacked hard. It pays on to remember iany group or company is reflective of its owners/shareholders.

 

[kemajic]

Most of you are too young to remember the wacking the NCAA got nearly 35 years over title IX, but I can promise you the NCAA hasn't. Whether a few of you like the idea there is always a counterview just as extreme as rabid fandom, you had better console yourself, no program since the 20's (as someone else put it) where the culture of winning has become more prevalent than the education mission of the colleges and universities has ever failed to be wacked and wacked hard. It pays on to remember iany group or company is reflective of its owners/shareholders.

Speaking of Title IX, nothing like taking a good thing to an extreme and making it a bad thing.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1751893542001/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[nzone]

So tell me "over generalizing one" what is an acceptable level of casualty? The he said she said case is extremely difficult to prosecute. I mean if you go to trial the evidence should convict beyond a reasonable doubt to 12 jurors. So do you go ahead and convict some innocent guy just to throw out to the entire male population that sex could land you in jail. "What I had sex with you but you don't want to see me again!" Rape Rape. Difficult issues for sure but the JJ thing reminds me of the Salem Witch Hunts. The bulk of the women surely can't blame an entire football program and then have that program drug thru the media mud pile. So it sounds like you're willing to trade casualty for casualty. A feminist agenda vs. all unmarried men (some married I guess) with the game being strings attached for sex. I agree that no means no so get off but I can't agree with no after yes - implied or not. So tnt whats an acceptable level of casualty? :?:

 

[Ursa Major]

There is an interesting culture not only on Campus but within the City Police department. The bulk of the leadership the last few years are all pretty similar in belief (also members of the same church) (leadership flows downhill. Pretty much the prevailing thought is that in most circumstances rape was the fault of the victim, and generally could have been avoided. The "hand out" is no joke. Women are discouraged from the reporting to through the investigation and on. Sadly what they are being told is true. Like it or not you will find that confirmed by the bulk of women who have gone through the reporting process, SARCS etc as well as the counselors and folks working these Community Programs.

TNT, What proof do you have of this? Easy to say a DOJ investigation but do you have any evidence to support this claim?

 

[bisonboone11]

Why would this not sit right with you? (unless you feel he is guilty)...As someone has already posted, Pflugrad has known this young man and his family for quite some time. Speaking about the character of someone you feel has been wrongly accused doesn't seem that out of line to me.

It is poor crisis management by a public figure representing the University. We all know the variables and details of the situation but the average person, maybe the average Griz fan, doesn't. All they know is that the QB is accused of rape and UM is publicly dismissing the accusation and letting the QB play anyway. Pflu should have chosen his words more carefully. Instead he gave the haters more evidence that Griz football sees itself as above the rest of the school and the community. Public perception matters in situations like this. Pflu and to a much greater extent, RE have failed miserably on that account.

It doesn't sit right with me because of exactly what FCS Go! said. As an outsider, I do not know Pflugrad's relationship with JJ and his family. As an outsider, it sounds like a coach is simply disregarding the rape allegations against his starting QB and putting that player above the alleged victim. I understand supporting your players, but I just feel he should've chosen his words differently. As FCS Go! said, public perception in situations like this really matter, and as an outsider, that came across bad.

If you put yourself in the position of friends and family of the alleged victim, how would you like it if someone was saying that the person that allegedly raped your daughter/sister/friend had tremendous moral fiber.

 

[coyote]

Why would this not sit right with you? (unless you feel he is guilty)...As someone has already posted, Pflugrad has known this young man and his family for quite some time. Speaking about the character of someone you feel has been wrongly accused doesn't seem that out of line to me.

It is poor crisis management by a public figure representing the University. We all know the variables and details of the situation but the average person, maybe the average Griz fan, doesn't. All they know is that the QB is accused of rape and UM is publicly dismissing the accusation and letting the QB play anyway. Pflu should have chosen his words more carefully. Instead he gave the haters more evidence that Griz football sees itself as above the rest of the school and the community. Public perception matters in situations like this. Pflu and to a much greater extent, RE have failed miserably on that account.

It doesn't sit right with me because of exactly what FCS Go! said. As an outsider, I do not know Pflugrad's relationship with JJ and his family. As an outsider, it sounds like a coach is simply disregarding the rape allegations against his starting QB and putting that player above the alleged victim. I understand supporting your players, but I just feel he should've chosen his words differently. As FCS Go! said, public perception in situations like this really matter, and as an outsider, that came across bad.

If you put yourself in the position of friends and family of the alleged victim, how would you like it if someone was saying that the person that allegedly raped your daughter/sister/friend had tremendous moral fiber.

You are assuming he raped her.

 

[bisonboone11]

Here are some responses, in the order you presented them. After you read this, and see the facts, it would be great if you would respond.

1. This "gang" rape turned out not to be a gang rape, nor was it a rape. The police declined to prosecute it twice, apparently due to lack of evidence, and, according to posts on this board and the rumor mill, the students won the university panel case in a 7-0 vote.

2. The university code requires university proceedings to be kept confidential. The woman had talked to the Missoulian about the university proceeding while the proceeding was pending, and was quoted in an article. Foley, in an internal email, asked if the woman was allowed to talk publicly about the university proceeding.

3. I can see your point. Note, however, that Pflu had apparently known JJ and his parents for many years, as Pflu was from Oregon and had coached in Oregon for a number of years. I assume Pflu also had better information about the facts than the most of us.

4. Yes, when the media mischaracterizes and overblows so many things, it leaves many people with the wrong impression.

Thanks for your post on views from afar.

1. Did Foley know at the time that he made his comments that no rape had occurred, or that if one had happened, it wasn't a gang rape? I am under the assumption that he was not there the night of the alleged incident to say whether or not a rape had occurred or to classify what type of rape it was. If that is true that he was not there the night of the incident, attempting to comment on what type of rape had occurred, and attempting to classify it as a form of rape that doesn't sound as bad comes across as attempting to downplay the situation.

2. That makes his comments seem more reasonable, and it makes sense. However, as an outsider, it could come across as trying to keep the entire situation quiet.

3. I don't think most outsiders are aware that Pflugrad knew JJ and his family personally. However, even knowing that, how you would you feel if you knew the alleged victim personally, and a head figure at the University was saying that her alleged rapist had tremendous moral fiber? I understand supporting your friends and players, but I think he also should've realize that he is in a position of authority and the social spotlight is on him. I just think he should've chosen his words to the public more carefully.

 

[bisonboone11]

You are assuming he raped her.

Please do not tell me what I am or am not assuming. I am not assuming that at all. All I'm saying is that IMO, it would've been smarter of him to stay neutral on the issue while in the public eye until it was resolved. As an outsider, his comments came across as him saying one of two things:

1. "That girl that claims she was raped is lying."; or

2. "This rapist has tremendous moral fiber."

Assuming that he felt JJ was innocent, he was basically accusing an alleged rape victim of lying without any apparent proof. Public perception is extremely important in situations like this. Wouldn't it have been smarter of him to stay neutral until it was resolved?

 

[Grisly Fan]

You are assuming he raped her.

Please do not tell me what I am or am not assuming. I am not assuming that at all. All I'm saying is that IMO, it would've been smarter of him to stay neutral on the issue while in the public eye until it was resolved. As an outsider, his comments came across as him saying one of two things:

1. "That girl that claims she was raped is lying."; or

2. "This rapist has tremendous moral fiber."

Assuming that he felt JJ was innocent, he was basically accusing an alleged rape victim of lying without any apparent proof. Public perception is extremely important in situations like this. Wouldn't it have been smarter of him to stay neutral until it was resolved?

He probably should have not said anything just to avoid having goofballs read a whole bunch of crap into a simple statement of support.

 

[tnt]

There is an interesting culture not only on Campus but within the City Police department. The bulk of the leadership the last few years are all pretty similar in belief (also members of the same church) (leadership flows downhill. Pretty much the prevailing thought is that in most circumstances rape was the fault of the victim, and generally could have been avoided. The "hand out" is no joke. Women are discouraged from the reporting to through the investigation and on. Sadly what they are being told is true. Like it or not you will find that confirmed by the bulk of women who have gone through the reporting process, SARCS etc as well as the counselors and folks working these Community Programs.

TNT, What proof do you have of this? Easy to say a DOJ investigation but do you have any evidence to support this claim?

I have explained about the PD before, and posted my daughters experience. Its no accident the previous chief has been interviewed and following his interview the investigation expanded to 500 cases and more victims contacted.

In the middle of all of this is a University Student (actually 2) who were discouraged from pursuing their cases, who didn't stop either contacting the only person who would listen to them (Florio) or an attorney Neither should hav had to happen.) You might also catch the county has said aside $200,000 in a reserve fund to deal with this. That's a lot of "overtime"

FWIW I don't think the problem is at the university. They are too damn stupid to purposely cause a problem. And most certainly RE's lets all talk about this and it will be better approach is pure BS.

I might also suggest whether Donaldson and Johnson are guilty of a crime or not will be determined later. They are both probably pretty good kids (along with the gang bangers) who were in the wrong atmosphere with weak adult leadership that needs to have itself purged or held accountable.....

 

[PlayerRep]

Here are some responses, in the order you presented them. After you read this, and see the facts, it would be great if you would respond.

1. This "gang" rape turned out not to be a gang rape, nor was it a rape. The police declined to prosecute it twice, apparently due to lack of evidence, and, according to posts on this board and the rumor mill, the students won the university panel case in a 7-0 vote.

2. The university code requires university proceedings to be kept confidential. The woman had talked to the Missoulian about the university proceeding while the proceeding was pending, and was quoted in an article. Foley, in an internal email, asked if the woman was allowed to talk publicly about the university proceeding.

3. I can see your point. Note, however, that Pflu had apparently known JJ and his parents for many years, as Pflu was from Oregon and had coached in Oregon for a number of years. I assume Pflu also had better information about the facts than the most of us.

4. Yes, when the media mischaracterizes and overblows so many things, it leaves many people with the wrong impression.

Thanks for your post on views from afar.

1. Did Foley know at the time that he made his comments that no rape had occurred, or that if one had happened, it wasn't a gang rape? I am under the assumption that he was not there the night of the alleged incident to say whether or not a rape had occurred or to classify what type of rape it was. If that is true that he was not there the night of the incident, attempting to comment on what type of rape had occurred, and attempting to classify it as a form of rape that doesn't sound as bad comes across as attempting to downplay the situation.

2. That makes his comments seem more reasonable, and it makes sense. However, as an outsider, it could come across as trying to keep the entire situation quiet.

3. I don't think most outsiders are aware that Pflugrad knew JJ and his family personally. However, even knowing that, how you would you feel if you knew the alleged victim personally, and a head figure at the University was saying that her alleged rapist had tremendous moral fiber? I understand supporting your friends and players, but I think he also should've realize that he is in a position of authority and the social spotlight is on him. I just think he should've chosen his words to the public more carefully.

1. Foley had either talked to the students or talked to people who had interviewed the students, and had talked to the police (who had declined to pursue the case due to lack of evidence) or talked to someone who had talked to the police. So yes, he knew what had occurred. He would have also known that another woman at the house had declined to support the story of the accuser. He likely also knew that the incident didn't involve sexual intercourse with this group of people.

3. Again, I can see your point. However, how would you feel if you were the parents or friends of an accused who believed he was falsely accused? Would you support a friend, or kid of a friend, or someone who worked for you, if you knew them well and believed in their strong moral fiber--or would you just stay silent and not support your friend or worker?

 

[Growler1]

Why don't you ladies end the pontificating and playing kangaroo court. It does not matter who is right and who is wrong. All that matters is that the NCAA is gonna make us bend over and take it in the arse, just like they did Penn State. And you can trace all of this sh*t back to the criminal culture which started when Hauck and his buddy Jimbo were hired into jobs that they were both unqualified for.

 

[Umista]

After reading this entire blog, I feel like I got raped.

I have been taught when rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it. Taught to me by my Berkley prof.

All blather in my opinion, NCAA be damned!