HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
No, my position is that Clif and the Griz don't make the Championship without Jr and the return game. Jr scored or set the table with short fields often.
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I miss Clifton
- Thread starter greenacresgriz
- Start date
HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
My contention is the winning streak run to the Championship was largely impacted by Jr and the return game. It is more than scoring touchdowns, he set them up with short fields also.
BadlandsGrizFan
Well-known member
Yeah Fife and Ah Yat both have much higher ceilings.
What we miss with Cliff is that when Pease went brain dead and his drives started stalling in games we could just run QB power 2-3 times a drive and pick up first downs.
mthoopsfan
Well-known member
That doesn’t mean McDowell was not off in the 2d half in Frisco and didn’t play well.
horribilisfan8184
Well-known member
McDowell was a "Joe Kapp" type QB. Might bulldoze his was into a Championship game but didn't have the passing skills to be dominant in that phase, if that's what the defense was giving, and lead the team to victory. Wining the semi-final game was his ceiling, just as winning the NFC Championship was Kapp's ceiling.
mthoopsfan
Well-known member
Would Bergen had scored the TD’s without good play by his blockers? Would the team have gotten to Frisco without a great D? Would the D have been as good without Hill and the other seniors? Would McDowell have completed as many passes without good seniors? Would the o-line have been as good without the center? Would the D have stopped the Cats without special scheme designed by T Hauck? Jeez, it’s a team game.
Our average starting field position after punts/kickoffs last year during Clif's run was the 32 yard line.
Our average starting field position after punts/kickoffs this season is the 31 yard line.
I even looked at starting field position for scoring drives after punt/kickoff:
Both season's average start is the 33 yard line.
It doesn't seem like the return game carried Clif, to me.
HikeGlacier
Well-known member
There was a great discussion on this week's GFP about what he brought to the team last year and how that lack of leadership is impacting this year's team.
I really don't know if we would be better this year if Clif had stayed and been the guy. It's impossible to say for sure. I also don't really want to get into intangible stuff like leadership or gamer-ness, or what have you, although I know people have told me that the offensive players really rallied around him as the year went on.
I made a post around this same point last year that really illustrated what Clif did that was the catalyst for our offensive success. During the run before the playoffs, Cliff was a monster at converting 3rd downs. Between the ISU and MSU games, when he decided to pass or run it himself on 3rd down, he was picking them up over 50% of the time. Our redzone success rate was also better than it is this season, and that's with several fumbles from Clif. And that was against a tougher overall schedule, too.
I get that he really didn't keep that pace going in the playoffs (against arguably the 3 best defenses back-to-back-to-back in the entire FCS), but I just can't sit and read people denigrate what he brought to this team. He was easily one of the biggest reasons for our success last year (I'll definitely hear arguments about the defense being a much bigger contributor last year than this year, though), and the stats show it.
I made a post around this same point last year that really illustrated what Clif did that was the catalyst for our offensive success. During the run before the playoffs, Cliff was a monster at converting 3rd downs. Between the ISU and MSU games, when he decided to pass or run it himself on 3rd down, he was picking them up over 50% of the time. Our redzone success rate was also better than it is this season, and that's with several fumbles from Clif. And that was against a tougher overall schedule, too.
I get that he really didn't keep that pace going in the playoffs (against arguably the 3 best defenses back-to-back-to-back in the entire FCS), but I just can't sit and read people denigrate what he brought to this team. He was easily one of the biggest reasons for our success last year (I'll definitely hear arguments about the defense being a much bigger contributor last year than this year, though), and the stats show it.
HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
That was kind of my point since Hike wanted to anoint Clif as win God.
HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
Did I say it carried Clif? Did I base my argument of the avg?
You said it bailed them out and that Junior had a bigger impact on the winning streak than Clifton.
What data would you suggest proves that? The playoff return TDs? Okay, what about the other 8 games?
HikeGlacier
Well-known member
You should listen to the podcast. Between 1:10 to 1:40 minutes. The whole group talks about his impact on the whole team, including the defense.
I think everybody understands football is an intricate game of many moving parts. Everybody on last year's team deserves credit for the run to Frisco.
The issue here seems to be the back handsprings some posters feel they need to do to specifically not give Cliff his due. He's an imperfect player who captained the offense on one of the best turnarounds and runs in Griz history, often through sheer will and physical sacrifice behind a porous line. That was the identity of last year's team, and he embodied it. He competed, took a stranglehold on the job, and wore his want-to and confidence on his sleeve. Either his body or his mettle broke down in Frisco -- just like the Griz QBs before him in this offense, though they couldn't endure the punishment as deep into the playoffs.
This week, the new QBs threw some disheartening duds and couldn't hang on for the ride -- squandering a great crowd and atmosphere. So for a few days here, a good portion of the fan base acutely misses Cliff's time in the saddle -- warts and all. That's the only proof of his worth required. On to the next one.
The issue here seems to be the back handsprings some posters feel they need to do to specifically not give Cliff his due. He's an imperfect player who captained the offense on one of the best turnarounds and runs in Griz history, often through sheer will and physical sacrifice behind a porous line. That was the identity of last year's team, and he embodied it. He competed, took a stranglehold on the job, and wore his want-to and confidence on his sleeve. Either his body or his mettle broke down in Frisco -- just like the Griz QBs before him in this offense, though they couldn't endure the punishment as deep into the playoffs.
This week, the new QBs threw some disheartening duds and couldn't hang on for the ride -- squandering a great crowd and atmosphere. So for a few days here, a good portion of the fan base acutely misses Cliff's time in the saddle -- warts and all. That's the only proof of his worth required. On to the next one.
My absolute favorite quote from coach Hauck last season (apart from the "asskicking" comment after the brawl) was after one of the games (maybe Idaho or UC Davis) at a presser when he said that "this team is not aesthetically pleasing", and I thought it just perfectly encapsulated how this team played under Clif: bruising, bullying, ugly, grind it out football.
It sometimes feels like we're back on the more "finesse" offense we ran with Lucas Johnson in 2022 this season.
I do. QB was god awful against UC Davis. All we needed was some consistent drives to keep the defense from getting gassed. Clifton would have absolutely made a difference vs UND and Weber. He's a much better dual threat QB than anyone on the Griz roster right now. How many 3rd downs did CMD convert? A lot. He willed the offense and he was a great leader last year. You're delusional AF if you think he wasn't.
HikeGlacier
Well-known member
Not reality.
