I met with President Royce Engstrom

[Copper Griz]

tnt....are you suggesting that Haslam is in agreement with Engstrom regarding a possible de-emphasis of the football program? Also, please explain your comment about sniveling boosters. Finally, since you don't seem to be interested in UM athletics, why do you visit this site?

Spanky - I don't read TNT's post as combative. More as factual based on the information he provided. The biggest oversight I believe is not accounting for degradation of support throughout the state of Montana. You can have phenomenal academic programs (multiple subjects and career paths) but unless you are Stanford or Harvard, not many people care. Especially in Montana where the median Income is so low. Sports programs tie Montanan's to the universities. The institution is there to educate the next generation and to produce future leaders of this great state and country. Not everything is about football, basketball, etc, but those programs are integral to the communities the Universities are located within and for garnering pride and support that helps to lure students to the school. I know every academic thinks kids pick the school they are attending based on their future career and the schools reputation, but that is simply not the case. Talk to a high school guidance counselor and you will find many kids attend a school for the extra carricular activities, geography, familial ties, etc. the U of M needs strong sports programs. Just one more way to attract students. The President of MS Pew gets it. She really, really gets it.

 

[nzone]

Anyone know what RE's e-mail address is?

 

[NativeGriz]

[email protected] or his assistant is [email protected]

CopperGriz, I agree a lot with what you said. RE never played sports except maybe 5th grade soccer and does not relate. He has no idea of how athletics brings value to an institution. Thus he and Pat Williams are on the same page. Wrong page, but same page. We will never be exactly what he envisions us to be. The MSU president does get it. MSU will have an athletic budget somewhere around $20M in 2013. UM closer to $16M. UM use to have a surplus, MSU didn't. What a difference in leadership.

I am busy next couple of days, but I do have some more info to add. I am afraid tnt is right about one thing. RE may be around for awhile. I dont think the BOR is ready to admit they made a mistake and want to give him at least a full 3 years. If you really are concerned, contact BOR and Commissioner of Higher Education. Voice your unemotional concern.

 

[NativeGriz]

Or [email protected]

 

[nzone]

Or even Governor Bullock. The one thing that should be quite apparent is that we as alumni not only support the football program but all segments of the university. The BOR needs to realize that the presidents office needs to approach the University as a entity and needs to be assured that a balanced approach is the best approach. This president has made many errors in judgement and if the board cannot see this than maybe they should take a look at the mission in which they agreed to uphold. In general a president who has made so many errors as this one usually by many standards is not retained. A no confidence vote could easily be persuaded if they will take time and look at the entire picture. Royce has many VERY BIG ALUM looking cross eyed right now. Many thanksgiving letters and birthday cards asking if the donations are coming. Royce has made a mess of things and why he isn't be held accountable is disturbing.

 

[behappp]

.

One of RE's first comments was to say, he felt Mr. Delaney had done an incredible job. He added he was very proud of Mr. Delaney and due to that comment, I did not think it was worth discussing anything else with regard to coaching performance.

Like many others I want to applaud you on getting an interview and conducting it admirably. Of course Royce acted like a politician, that is part of the job and any poorly worded statements on his part could result in being used against him and the university later.

That being said, I was wondering why you thought it was not worth discussing anything further re this subject. If we had an 8 or 9 win season then this "problem" would not be nearly as big as it is now. Delaney did not do an incredible job. The first losing season in what? 20 years?. And that's an incredible job? I think I would like to make him explain what was so incredible about the job Delaney did. I believe expounding on this would give us a better understanding of what he expects from a head coach and Griz football, in general.

You wanted to know what questions to follow up on. This is what I would follow up on.




Since Pres. Obama took office the Dow Jones has gone up 1000 points. If that is failure, I'll be happy to keep making money with this "failure" of a President.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

Since Pres. Obama took office the Dow Jones has gone up 1000 points. If that is failure, I'll be happy to keep making money with this "failure" of a President.

This is off-topic, but you should update your numbers, behap! The Dow closed at 7949.09 on January 20, 2009, so that's about 5000 points less than today's close.

 

[griz4life]

More critical to the future at the University is the expansion of the PhD, programs (especially in the health Sciences) Follow that and follow the support of the faculty (and their joy at the removal of Jim Foley) the new communications director appointment, ask anyone on the AD selection committee why out of 60 applicants kent rose to the top, follow the progress of the grant process, and you will quickly understand why the sniveling of a bunch of boosters is falling on deaf ears.

The residencey program will provide over 3.7 million in direct benefits not to mention millions more in healthcare (some 50+ jobs @ 70,000+ each at no cost to the university)

There is a lot not being said, but quick settlements with the "fired" should be a clue..........

RE will be around for quite a spell.

$3.7 million is peanuts you little retard. The university is so far behind the 8 ball on research it would take the better part of a decade to get it to where Montana State was 10 years ago.

 

[GrizLA]

tnt....are you suggesting that Haslam is in agreement with Engstrom regarding a possible de-emphasis of the football program? Also, please explain your comment about sniveling boosters. Finally, since you don't seem to be interested in UM athletics, why do you visit this site?

Spanky - I don't read TNT's post as combative. More as factual based on the information he provided. The biggest oversight I believe is not accounting for degradation of support throughout the state of Montana. You can have phenomenal academic programs (multiple subjects and career paths) but unless you are Stanford or Harvard, not many people care. Especially in Montana where the median Income is so low. Sports programs tie Montanan's to the universities. The institution is there to educate the next generation and to produce future leaders of this great state and country. Not everything is about football, basketball, etc, but those programs are integral to the communities the Universities are located within and for garnering pride and support that helps to lure students to the school. I know every academic thinks kids pick the school they are attending based on their future career and the schools reputation, but that is simply not the case. Talk to a high school guidance counselor and you will find many kids attend a school for the extra carricular activities, geography, familial ties, etc. the U of M needs strong sports programs. Just one more way to attract students. The President of MS Pew gets it. She really, really gets it.

Good post...Stanford does indeed realize the value of athletics and its connection to fundraising. That is why they have a billions of dollars in the various endowments. I don't understand what is happening to UM but I get the mailings and it appears business as usual, but I have friends who think UM is failing on many fronts. Personally, I have no idea but think the problems are often brought on by thinking too locally not to mention unwillingness to spend money to make money. A winning football or basketball program would certainly generate more money than the weak and out of date efforts being used by the university to raise funds now. I imagine the proportion of the cut to the actual fundraiser is more than the salary of a coach, but not necessarily as productive.

 

[GrizLA]

Since Pres. Obama took office the Dow Jones has gone up 1000 points. If that is failure, I'll be happy to keep making money with this "failure" of a President.

This is off-topic, but you should update your numbers, behap! The Dow closed at 7949.09 on January 20, 2009, so that's about 5000 points less than today's close.

uh, wrong.

 

[behappp]

Since Pres. Obama took office the Dow Jones has gone up 1000 points. If that is failure, I'll be happy to keep making money with this "failure" of a President.

This is off-topic, but you should update your numbers, behap! The Dow closed at 7949.09 on January 20, 2009, so that's about 5000 points less than today's close.

You are 100% correct
I was looking at Jan 20, 2008

 

[tnt]

More critical to the future at the University is the expansion of the PhD, programs (especially in the health Sciences) Follow that and follow the support of the faculty (and their joy at the removal of Jim Foley) the new communications director appointment, ask anyone on the AD selection committee why out of 60 applicants kent rose to the top, follow the progress of the grant process, and you will quickly understand why the sniveling of a bunch of boosters is falling on deaf ears.

The residencey program will provide over 3.7 million in direct benefits not to mention millions more in healthcare (some 50+ jobs @ 70,000+ each at no cost to the university)

There is a lot not being said, but quick settlements with the "fired" should be a clue..........

RE will be around for quite a spell.

$3.7 million is peanuts you little retard. The university is so far behind the 8 ball on research it would take the better part of a decade to get it to where Montana State was 10 years ago.

3.7 million is one new program and that is per year for damn ever. (With only a 403 million budget I'm not sure thats peanuts) The research dollars in U of M have increasedfrom 12 to 72 million (per year) since 1994. BTW. You don't get research dollars without PhD programs (thats where original research occurs) But that comes with a caveat, A professor "teaching" PhD candidates teaches on average only 3 hours as opposed to 9 for a regular professor. Expenses go up significantly witrh research proffs and PhD instructors With that in mind the effect of Research dollars on the two schools budgets are fairly comprable.

A more devestating loss would be a few hundred students because of public perceptions of the University Campus life from say a football program that seems to have discipline problems. there doesn't have to be "convictions" just a spectre - say a warehouse party,, open sex at a party etc etc. A few articles in national publications. Smokes perhaps, but smoke doesn't produce itself (or occur in a vacuum)

That loss would even be worse if those students were out of state. one of the things that raised Kent to the top in the interviews was his understanding of the importance of out of state recruiting for both students at large and athletic teams. One of the key faculty members of the selection committee BTW happens to have his daughter be the captain of the soccer team....

Imagine the possibility of losses in research grants from awarders who think "oh yeah U of M - football reigns over all" Those 3.7 million dollar peanuts add up a lot faster than booster checks.

Any short term loss to fundraising resulting from cleaning up the image of the Athletic department and equally importantly the communications department can be pretty easily overcome with those research can't they Griz4Life? At least if MSU is as good at it as you say. And all of THAT occured over there before their current president.

I'm not sure there was much future for our football program anyway, if it was as dependent on one QB and one coach as some believe. BTW how have the BSC teams who are in the playoffs done the last few years???

While I appreciate the attempts to show Engstrom as a football destroying menace in as unbiased fashion as possible it doesn't line up with whats happening elswhwere or the support he is recieving from the folks charged with more than a winning football record.

Whats really going to take some time to recover from is Dennisons empire building (and Foleys hacking) and the free hand he gave other "builders" You do realize in many academic circles the naming of theater after him was a colossal and long term insult. right???

RE walked into a mess on many levels. I don't think the University could have "survived" much more of Dennison:

Try this one: http://www.umt.edu/planningassessmentcontinuum/plan/plandocs/NCURApeerreview.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In terms of whats going on: http://www.umt.edu/planningassessmentcontinuum/default.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (this is what RE was preparing during his "internship".....

 

[Spanky]

tnt...I agree with you about Dennison and think it tragic to have a building named after him. Is it your view that the revenue from the football program isn't important to Engstrom? Does Engstrom think the football program should be terminated or is he of the opinion the program should compete in a lower division? I don't understand your comments about Kent Haslam, however, you seem to know the reasons he was hired. Are we as boosters of the football program not seeing the positive aspects of Engstrom's direction for UM?

 

[SoCalGriz]

Damn, I should not have looked at egriz this AM. I have too much on my plate for this today. I should have become a realtor. If I dont respond quickly I wont be able to work, so I will take 10 minutes to respond to TNT.
Public perception-national media: mostly media driven. I wish we had a leader that knew how to deal with the media and had the balls to defend those innocent.
Kent is a bright man with knowledge of the inner workings, but lets not kid ourselves. He is in a no-win job and is forced to be a Yes-man. He does not have a Foley fighting for athletics and I don't believe Main Hall has a clue of the value of athletics.
Research grants-back to public perception-back to needing a leader that knows how to deal with this and at this time we don't have one.
Short term loss-Back to needing a leader that knows how to deal with bad Missoulian journalism. You're kind of making our point. RE was a poor leader when it came to dealing with the media. He enabled them to create the bad image.
I don't think RE set out to destroy FB, he just did not do anything to support it. He has no clue what the value of a successful FB program is to an institution. MSU is sure finding that out. I talked to a lot of biz leaders in Missoula and his support quite frankly sucks. I have taken 15 mins and I don't have time to add to this, but trust me his support is thin.
Dennison may have sucked, but he was smart enough to see what a cash cow the FB program was and how it has brought other donors to the table. I have soo much more I could add, but I have a conference call.

 

[tnt]

tnt...I agree with you about Dennison and think it tragic to have a building named after him. Is it your view that the revenue from the football program isn't important to Engstrom? Does Engstrom think the football program should be terminated or is he of the opinion the program should compete in a lower division? I don't understand your comments about Kent Haslam, however, you seem to know the reasons he was hired. Are we as boosters of the football program not seeing the positive aspects of Engstrom's direction for UM?

His building is sorta like naming an outhouse after him.

Copper Griz understands the appeal to locals but the pie charts (I posted a link) tell a bigger story (one MSPhew also understands) better than a quarter of our money comes from out of state and sadly an awful lot of our "better" athletes.

Of course the football income is important to Dennison but he and the rest of the "team" are looking at a long term picture. The development of research grant money stared seriously in the late 90's has resulted in nearly 20% of the budget. Protecting that is first priority lots of top football programs have down years even a stretch of down years. They can survive that. When the integrity of the program effects the integrity of the University there is a problem especially with the critical out of state recruitment. That critical not only to academic programs and budgets but frankly without our of state athletes all of athletic programs suffer.

I don't know all of the reasons Kent rose to the top but one that has been stated by more than one faculty member on the committe was Kent's clear understanding that the spectre of rape, violence, special treatment of athletes and the win at all cost mentality (accurate or not)had to be removed not only from the public's eyes but more importantly guidance counselors, coaches etc. A "change of leadership" was the only way to do that. Mick is doing that. Kent will continue it.

Now with all of this on the same plate as a University in a lot of trouble from the previous administration may be more than RE was expecting, and take more time than he was hoping before he can get to fixing the real problems, but it will happen.

PR may pooh pooh it (love that phrase) but it is widley known that Jim Foleys rise at the University was part of a deal with Pat Williams (for who Foley was a hatchet man/spin Doctor) with Dennison. It involved, of course, some grant money for "building." Foley had no experience in academia and his strong arm techniques from DC just didn't work well. Despite what anyone says, one of Dennisons first acts (even before Rapegate) in demoting Foley and removing him from direct supervision of faculty members with Williams newly appointed to the BOR took a set of brass one ultimatley showing him the door was icing on the cake.

Dennison believe in long term stability (and growth) even with a short term cost. We will be fine. And as far as "years" it appears the rather deep run a couple of BSC teams are making the playoffs discount that theory. maybe if a few of the only if they are winning types" will give up their seats so the ones who love the Griz all the time will get them.....

 

[Silvertip]

tnt...I agree with you about Dennison and think it tragic to have a building named after him. Is it your view that the revenue from the football program isn't important to Engstrom? Does Engstrom think the football program should be terminated or is he of the opinion the program should compete in a lower division? I don't understand your comments about Kent Haslam, however, you seem to know the reasons he was hired. Are we as boosters of the football program not seeing the positive aspects of Engstrom's direction for UM?

His building is sorta like naming an outhouse after him.

Copper Griz understands the appeal to locals but the pie charts (I posted a link) tell a bigger story (one MSPhew also understands) better than a quarter of our money comes from out of state and sadly an awful lot of our "better" athletes.

Of course the football income is important to Dennison but he and the rest of the "team" are looking at a long term picture. The development of research grant money stared seriously in the late 90's has resulted in nearly 20% of the budget. Protecting that is first priority lots of top football programs have down years even a stretch of down years. They can survive that. When the integrity of the program effects the integrity of the University there is a problem especially with the critical out of state recruitment. That critical not only to academic programs and budgets but frankly without our of state athletes all of athletic programs suffer.

I don't know all of the reasons Kent rose to the top but one that has been stated by more than one faculty member on the committe was Kent's clear understanding that the spectre of rape, violence, special treatment of athletes and the win at all cost mentality (accurate or not)had to be removed not only from the public's eyes but more importantly guidance counselors, coaches etc. A "change of leadership" was the only way to do that. Mick is doing that. Kent will continue it.

Now with all of this on the same plate as a University in a lot of trouble from the previous administration may be more than RE was expecting, and take more time than he was hoping before he can get to fixing the real problems, but it will happen.

PR may pooh pooh it (love that phrase) but it is widley known that Jim Foleys rise at the University was part of a deal with Pat Williams (for who Foley was a hatchet man/spin Doctor) with Dennison. It involved, of course, some grant money for "building." Foley had no experience in academia and his strong arm techniques from DC just didn't work well. Despite what anyone says, one of Dennisons first acts (even before Rapegate) in demoting Foley and removing him from direct supervision of faculty members with Williams newly appointed to the BOR took a set of brass one ultimatley showing him the door was icing on the cake.

Dennison believe in long term stability (and growth) even with a short term cost. We will be fine. And as far as "years" it appears the rather deep run a couple of BSC teams are making the playoffs discount that theory. maybe if a few of the only if they are winning types" will give up their seats so the ones who love the Griz all the time will get them.....

Bad analogy. "The University Theater" is a very nice building and to paraphrase BO, Dennison "...didn't
build it."

 

[grzz]

I agree Copper and I heard most of the same stuff Washingtonfan1 posted.

I forgot to add, I did ask RE if he had considered or requested football to be dropped for one year and he stated "absolutely not" and it sounded like a confident no, but then I have heard from at least 5 people claiming he did request for FB to be dropped and CC said no.

To me Carol Williams relationship to the accuser's mother should have been public knowledge, but I dont know the law that well.

I heard the party scene among FB players was a huge concern and may have been part of the reason for firings. FB does seem to be targeted because they are ignoring a lot of other partying taking place in other sports. There was a fight involving BB players after leaving the bars with some local thugs and that is ignored, but you can bet if it had involved FB players, it would have been front page news.

I was also advised the Missoulian took Coach Phlu's comments on JJ being a model citizen out of context.
The question from GF was: How does the team feel about having JJ back.
Coach P: They feel great to have him back. He is one of the team leaders etc. and he was a great kid/model citizen back in Oregon.
Next day Missoulian: Coach P calls JJ a model citizen.
Obviously that engraged a lot of people, including me at the time.

A few thoughts, I'm sure I will be in the minority on some.

I agree with WBTFG, you are all assuming Engstrom was completely open and truthful. It is possible that Engstrom recognized there was a football fan with slanted questions, pre-conceived opinions, and an agenda and thus didn't say much of anything substantial, just basic answers of which the questioner has added analysis and drawn some incredible conclusions.

The President at UM asked for football to be dropped or not held for a season? Give me a break. If anyone actually believes that, they are not able to rationally consider any of this or Engstrom's impact on this whole situation. It is amazing how much rumors that people hear around town turn in to solid fact on this board.

The Pat Williams thing...I have no doubt that Pat Williams has an opinion on all of this, and I have no doubt he shared it with Engstrom, but what leverage does Williams have over the UM President? He is one vote on the board, he has been out of Congress for years. AND, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, if Williams had so much power and sway over Engstrom, there is ZERO chance that Foley would have been hung out to dry. Their connections go back a long way in Montana politics.

Phlu's comments about JJ weren't taken out of context in the Missoulian because they were on video, on KPAX.

The rumor mill has taken so many leaps and assumptions on this because we all want someone to blame and fix it, and we refuse to believe that anyone in our beloved athletic department or coaching staff made any mistakes. In the absence of actual, proven facts, people should live by the rule that if something sounds way too outrageous or ridiculous to be true, it probably is. Did Engstrom make mistakes, I have no doubt that he did, and I think that is obvious. People don't know nearly as much about all of these issues as they think they do, yet others treat them as experts and then it is fact in egriz land.

While there may be an element of truth to some of what you said, I find it funny that you are jumping on people saying they are saying things they don't know to be true, and then you do the exact same thing. At least portions of what people have posted are accurate, but you, with no knowledge, are trying to undercut them with apparently no knowledge of the situation. If Pflu's statements on JJ's high moral character are on KPAX, go find them and link/post them. If you can prove that Pat Williams didn't have anything to do with the firings, prove it. Show us your evidence. Actually, we know you can't do that, because Williams did play a big role. Supposedly indicated to Engstrom that he would get Engstrom fired if he didn't take immediate action. Foley worked for Williams decades ago. Your comment on that subject is totally ridiculous.

You are the one who needs to come up with some facts.

Sometimes your contributions are great, and sometimes you represent everything that is wrong with this board. You are presumably a well educated person, can you honestly read what you wrote and say that it makes sense and that is how the world should work?

Person A: "The sky is falling and we are all going to die."
Person B: "No it isn't, you don't present any fact to back up your claim that the sky is falling and all rational information would say the sky is not falling."
Player Rep: How dare you person B. Person A made their statement first, so it is on you to disprove their statement with facts.


Makes sense...

And here is your proof on Pflu making his statement to KPAX, not the Missoulian. Which you already knew, but you like to make straw man arguments against anyone who posts something disagreeing with your views. Did the UM news release misqoute him as well?

http://www.kpax.com/news/johnson-returns-to-practice-with-blessing-of-coach-but-order-of-protecion-from-alledged-victim/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[tnt]

And here is your proof on Pflu making his statement to KPAX, not the Missoulian. Which you already knew, but you like to make straw man arguments against anyone who posts something disagreeing with your views. Did the UM news release misqoute him as well?

http://www.kpax.com/news/johnson-returns-to-practice-with-blessing-of-coach-but-order-of-protecion-from-alledged-victim/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for that:

"Coach Robin Pflugrad said in a UM athletic department news release issued Saturday that, "I think that any time you have a person of Jordy's character and tremendous moral fiber, and he's your team captain and part of the leadership counsel, your players are going to be fired up (to see him back with the team.")

"When you get your number one guy back in all categories, on and off the football field, then guys are excited," Pflugrad added.

It was worse than what I thought. How in the world did an official press release like that get past the AD?????? No wonder RE flipped his lid. I always thought Pflu was just talking too much.

Yes the theatre is a nice building that Dennison had nothing to do with. Its a Theatre, will always be called the theatre. Its neither Academic or a Legacy. Naming is a real funny thing. Some one from Bozo ought to tell us how funny it is they named a Dorm after Leona Hapner over there.....

 

[PlayerRep]

I agree Copper and I heard most of the same stuff Washingtonfan1 posted.

I forgot to add, I did ask RE if he had considered or requested football to be dropped for one year and he stated "absolutely not" and it sounded like a confident no, but then I have heard from at least 5 people claiming he did request for FB to be dropped and CC said no.

To me Carol Williams relationship to the accuser's mother should have been public knowledge, but I dont know the law that well.

I heard the party scene among FB players was a huge concern and may have been part of the reason for firings. FB does seem to be targeted because they are ignoring a lot of other partying taking place in other sports. There was a fight involving BB players after leaving the bars with some local thugs and that is ignored, but you can bet if it had involved FB players, it would have been front page news.

I was also advised the Missoulian took Coach Phlu's comments on JJ being a model citizen out of context.
The question from GF was: How does the team feel about having JJ back.
Coach P: They feel great to have him back. He is one of the team leaders etc. and he was a great kid/model citizen back in Oregon.
Next day Missoulian: Coach P calls JJ a model citizen.
Obviously that engraged a lot of people, including me at the time.

A few thoughts, I'm sure I will be in the minority on some.

I agree with WBTFG, you are all assuming Engstrom was completely open and truthful. It is possible that Engstrom recognized there was a football fan with slanted questions, pre-conceived opinions, and an agenda and thus didn't say much of anything substantial, just basic answers of which the questioner has added analysis and drawn some incredible conclusions.

The President at UM asked for football to be dropped or not held for a season? Give me a break. If anyone actually believes that, they are not able to rationally consider any of this or Engstrom's impact on this whole situation. It is amazing how much rumors that people hear around town turn in to solid fact on this board.

The Pat Williams thing...I have no doubt that Pat Williams has an opinion on all of this, and I have no doubt he shared it with Engstrom, but what leverage does Williams have over the UM President? He is one vote on the board, he has been out of Congress for years. AND, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, if Williams had so much power and sway over Engstrom, there is ZERO chance that Foley would have been hung out to dry. Their connections go back a long way in Montana politics.

Phlu's comments about JJ weren't taken out of context in the Missoulian because they were on video, on KPAX.

The rumor mill has taken so many leaps and assumptions on this because we all want someone to blame and fix it, and we refuse to believe that anyone in our beloved athletic department or coaching staff made any mistakes. In the absence of actual, proven facts, people should live by the rule that if something sounds way too outrageous or ridiculous to be true, it probably is. Did Engstrom make mistakes, I have no doubt that he did, and I think that is obvious. People don't know nearly as much about all of these issues as they think they do, yet others treat them as experts and then it is fact in egriz land.

While there may be an element of truth to some of what you said, I find it funny that you are jumping on people saying they are saying things they don't know to be true, and then you do the exact same thing. At least portions of what people have posted are accurate, but you, with no knowledge, are trying to undercut them with apparently no knowledge of the situation. If Pflu's statements on JJ's high moral character are on KPAX, go find them and link/post them. If you can prove that Pat Williams didn't have anything to do with the firings, prove it. Show us your evidence. Actually, we know you can't do that, because Williams did play a big role. Supposedly indicated to Engstrom that he would get Engstrom fired if he didn't take immediate action. Foley worked for Williams decades ago. Your comment on that subject is totally ridiculous.

You are the one who needs to come up with some facts.

Sometimes your contributions are great, and sometimes you represent everything that is wrong with this board. You are presumably a well educated person, can you honestly read what you wrote and say that it makes sense and that is how the world should work?

Person A: "The sky is falling and we are all going to die."
Person B: "No it isn't, you don't present any fact to back up your claim that the sky is falling and all rational information would say the sky is not falling."
Player Rep: How dare you person B. Person A made their statement first, so it is on you to disprove their statement with facts.


Makes sense...

And here is your proof on Pflu making his statement to KPAX, not the Missoulian. Which you already knew, but you like to make straw man arguments against anyone who posts something disagreeing with your views. Did the UM news release misqoute him as well?

http://www.kpax.com/news/johnson-returns-to-practice-with-blessing-of-coach-but-order-of-protecion-from-alledged-victim/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, your KPAX link shows that Pflu did NOT make the statements to KPAX. The link says that the statements, or some of them, came from a university release. I wasn't aware of the release. From memory, it didn't look like all of the statements that got into the Missoulian article were mentioned in the KPAX link, but perhaps my memory is accurate. Anyway, thanks for posting the link, but it doesn't show that the statements were made to KPAX (and thus they are not on video).

 

[tgriz]

Sad state of affairs with this idiot leading the way. Good chance the program could be in the toilet for a long time to come.