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Harsh reality on roster changes

UMGriz75 said:
PlayerRep said:
Does anyone actually know what the coaches said to Parker and Pflug?

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea for a coach confirm to the media or announce to the media, a day or so after discussions like this have been held with players, that they have been cut or told they won't play or told they should probably move on. The players can say and do what they want, but I think the coach should be silent, for at least a decent period of time.
I almost always agree with you, but on this, in an age of social media, this is no longer useful, and leads to precisely the kind of outcomes as evidenced here. I'm speaking from a good deal of experience on this point, and the actual facts, in this new era, are that as soon as something happens, and there is no official confirmation, the rumor machine starts because there is an "appearance" that "something is going on" that someone "wants to hide."

This is no longer a question of "if." In an age of instant communication and requirements of transparency, anything like this will -- "will" -- result in speculation, and all the more so when it involves 100 or more young people, their friends, families and cohorts at the first level, 50,000 or more fans at the next level, and the general public after that.

I've also been on all sides of this question, as a reporter, an editor, a coach, and a sport administrator. "News cycles" are incredibly rapid these days.

You sit down with the affected players, you discuss the situation with them. You show them the proposed press release. You thank them. You ask them if the press release is something that they find acceptable. You don't leave them hanging out to dry in the public, because when you do, I've seen the speculation -- caused entirely by "silence" -- range from "cut for chemistry," to "grades," to "criminal charges," to "violation of rules," to "drinking," to "inappropriate behavior," all of which can be as false as false can be, but anyone who fails to recognize the nature of that beast is simply naive. And once those rumors get out there, as is well known, the allegation gets society's attention; the correction is on page 23.

You can't take that risk with young people's lives. It is careless and entirely inappropriate to take that risk. The duty of loyalty to the kids and to the institution is to avoid damage to both, and there is only one way in modern society, dealing with young people subject to speculation and imagination, and fan bases driven almost entirely by it, to do otherwise. The modern "best practice" is to protect the athlete by direct and public communication, the assurance that the athlete committed no infractions resulting in the termination. The most difficult part of that public process is ensuring that the athlete does not go out to be re-recruited with the implied cloud that he "just wasn't good enough" which is the kiss of death for future college play, as opposed to ensuring that everyone knows that it was the coach's game that changed, not the athlete's inadequacy. Delicate area indeed for the athlete seeking to complete a career elsewhere.

So much so that the NCAA is attempting to resolve those dilemmas and protect those athletes by possibly shifting to five year scholarship guarantees, just to protect the athletes from the kind of fallout of what happened here at UM this week because of a badly handled roster cut. These aren't imaginary problems. The NCAA is taking them seriously. I have used the word "proactive." That should be the watchword any time dealing with young people who, above all, rarely have the resources to protect themselves, and in the process, to protect the image of the University as a caring and protective institution for the young people entrusted to its care.

Indeed, it is a contractual obligation at UM to avoid damaging the public image and reputation of UM:
4. CONDUCT OF THE UM FOOTBALL PROGRAM
a. Coach shall act at all times in accordance with and fully comply with the laws, regulations, rules, policies, and guidelines of the United States, State of Montana, UM, the Big Sky Conference, NCAA and in a manner that reflects positively on the image and reputation of UM. Coach's failure to act in full compliance with these laws, regulations, rules and guidelines may result in disciplinary or corrective action as may be appropriate in light of the severity of the conduct.
There have been a lot of things this year that Stitt could be justly criticized for. Clearing roster space to make the team better going forward is not one. The timing benefits the kids let go; they have time to land elsewhere before spring ball where they'd have a chance to prove themselves. And the "how" argument is lame because you know next to nothing about the "how."
 
grzz said:
I think that he can explain this as having his player's backs fairly easily. And before you jump all over this and say he is cutting kids in the first place. That happens at every college team in America every year.

Let your Stitt hate shine through.
It's an issue nationwide. This recent event just happens to be a good example. You take the side of a coach who you seem to claim can do no wrong. I am taking the side of the athletes, on something that ought to be straightforward, and for which people like you can only resort to ad hominem attacks rather than simply acknowledge: properly handled, we didn't need to have this ridiculous conversation. Let your player hate shine through.

See how that works?
 
kemajic said:
There have been a lot of things this year that Stitt could be justly criticized for. Clearing roster space to make the team better going forward is not one. The timing benefits the kids let go; they have time to land elsewhere before spring ball where they'd have a chance to prove themselves. And the "how" argument is lame because you know next to nothing about the "how."
UMGriz75 said:
I think everyone expects cuts. Jack Welch cut the bottom 10% every year at GE. It's the only way to move forward.
I also think its appropriate to do so at the earliest possible date to get the kids reorganizing their lives. I can't think of a good reason to wait, if that's what's going to happen, for the kid and to get the scholarship available (if the scholarship was in fact terminated; they aren't always under these circumstances).

What part of that are you disagreeing with me about? I didn't say a word about "not cutting" nor about "not cutting now." Do you have a purpose in misrepresenting this? What are you trying to say?
 
AZGrizFan said:
BillingsMafia said:
Roster changes are needed. I was very high on Stitt but after watching every game I was disappointed about the lack of a quick hit short passing game. I thought Stitt's offense was built around that. I saw no creativity, no polish or consistency. So far I rate Stitt far far behind Read, Pflugrad and Glenn. I have hope but not optimisim. You either have it or not and if you don't you don't get it.

If you're rating him behind Pflugrad you've got a short memory. Pflu didn't get into the playoffs his first year. Didn't win a playoff game. Didn't beat EWU. DIdn't beat MSU. Didn't beat (or play) NDSU.

About the only thing the two have in common is they both lost to Cal Poly and Weber in their first year as coach.

And keep in mind: That 2010 team had no less than EIGHT players who either ARE or WERE in an NFL camp after their college careers ended (Reynolds, Wilson, Sambrano, Moore, McSurdy, Tru, Tripp, McKnight).

Can you name eight guys off this year's team that you think will ever see the inside of an NFL locker room?

Holmes
KVA
Jones
Henderson(?)

That's it.
Only....possibly one of those on your list ever sees the NFL.
 
UMGriz75 said:
stubbins said:
Your problem is that you have some sort of grievance against Stitt. There is nothing he will do for the rest of his life that you will agree with, it is very apparent. Can you just agree that you disagree with every decision he makes? That way we don't have to waddle through the same ole tired bullshit every 5th post...? Please?
You have your own agenda; that the coach can do no wrong. I am discussing a specific situation. Can we just assume that every post you make will support anything and everything Stitt does? That way we don't have to wade through the same old tired BS about how great, perfect and wonderful every coach is every day all the time no matter what?

See how that works?


Nope. There are things that Stitt changed during the season that I wasn't a fan of. He lost a bit of his aggressiveness. I was hoping he'd go for every 4th down that was under 5 yards. Mathematics proves that over the long run it pays off, same with going for two. He seemed to get a little scared about those decisions. Hopefully as he gets his system in, and all the players on the same page, he gets that back.

Don't know how I feel about the cutting of the players...I do think he did them a service by doing it in this time frame...just seems a bit harsh on the players. I understand it, especially if they weren't working as hard as they needed to be, I just don't know how I feel about it, yet.

Don't know about some of the play calling, but I don't know how much of that was Brady changing at the line, or his calls...

I wish he'd answer reporter questions like Popovich or Belicheck...just don't answer some of that shit...

I try to be as impartial as I can...doesn't always work though, sometimes I get revved up...
 
NorthEndZoneDan said:
MsMaroon said:
One of my favorite words is pontificate . . . to talk in a dogmatic and pompous manner. To pontificate properly, you need to be a know-it-all with very strong opinions and the urge to share them.

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/pontificate

I doubt whether even I, with all of my powers, can kill this thread. ;)

dig deep. dig very deep. kill this thread you must :lol:

I'll do my best. As you can often see - My pithy observations are either am completely ignored or the thread dies. I can take that, I've always got a clean apron to put on. ;)

What is funny to me is . . . my post is ignored so that everyone can keep on . . . well, pontificating. :lol:
 
ALPHAGRIZ1 said:
AZGrizFan said:
BillingsMafia said:
Roster changes are needed. I was very high on Stitt but after watching every game I was disappointed about the lack of a quick hit short passing game. I thought Stitt's offense was built around that. I saw no creativity, no polish or consistency. So far I rate Stitt far far behind Read, Pflugrad and Glenn. I have hope but not optimisim. You either have it or not and if you don't you don't get it.

If you're rating him behind Pflugrad you've got a short memory. Pflu didn't get into the playoffs his first year. Didn't win a playoff game. Didn't beat EWU. DIdn't beat MSU. Didn't beat (or play) NDSU.

About the only thing the two have in common is they both lost to Cal Poly and Weber in their first year as coach.

And keep in mind: That 2010 team had no less than EIGHT players who either ARE or WERE in an NFL camp after their college careers ended (Reynolds, Wilson, Sambrano, Moore, McSurdy, Tru, Tripp, McKnight).

Can you name eight guys off this year's team that you think will ever see the inside of an NFL locker room?

Holmes
KVA
Jones
Henderson(?)

That's it.
Only....possibly one of those on your list ever sees the NFL.

Put up or shut up. Would love to win another bet on egriz against people who doubt our players
 
stubbins said:
UMGriz75 said:
stubbins said:
Your problem is that you have some sort of grievance against Stitt. There is nothing he will do for the rest of his life that you will agree with, it is very apparent. Can you just agree that you disagree with every decision he makes? That way we don't have to waddle through the same ole tired bullshit every 5th post...? Please?
You have your own agenda; that the coach can do no wrong. I am discussing a specific situation. Can we just assume that every post you make will support anything and everything Stitt does? That way we don't have to wade through the same old tired BS about how great, perfect and wonderful every coach is every day all the time no matter what?

See how that works?


Nope. There are things that Stitt changed during the season that I wasn't a fan of. He lost a bit of his aggressiveness. I was hoping he'd go for every 4th down that was under 5 yards. Mathematics proves that over the long run it pays off, same with going for two. He seemed to get a little scared about those decisions. Hopefully as he gets his system in, and all the players on the same page, he gets that back.

Don't know how I feel about the cutting of the players...I do think he did them a service by doing it in this time frame...just seems a bit harsh on the players. I understand it, especially if they weren't working as hard as they needed to be, I just don't know how I feel about it, yet.

Don't know about some of the play calling, but I don't know how much of that was Brady changing at the line, or his calls...

I wish he'd answer reporter questions like Popovich or Belicheck...just don't answer some of that shit...

I try to be as impartial as I can...doesn't always work though, sometimes I get revved up...

IMO, Stubbins has always been a voice of reason on this board. I don't care to step into this discussion but he's been pretty fair and balanced over the years.....
 
stubbins said:
Nope. There are things that Stitt changed during the season that I wasn't a fan of. He lost a bit of his aggressiveness. I was hoping he'd go for every 4th down that was under 5 yards. Mathematics proves that over the long run it pays off, same with going for two. He seemed to get a little scared about those decisions. Hopefully as he gets his system in, and all the players on the same page, he gets that back.

Don't know how I feel about the cutting of the players...I do think he did them a service by doing it in this time frame...just seems a bit harsh on the players. I understand it, especially if they weren't working as hard as they needed to be, I just don't know how I feel about it, yet.

Don't know about some of the play calling, but I don't know how much of that was Brady changing at the line, or his calls...
It was an interesting season; I didn't see things I thought we'd see. I saw patterns and coaching behaviors I thought "odd." There were some terrific player moments. Mid-way through, I made my suggestions about what I thought we'd see as the season played out, and detailed my reasoning. I liked getting into the playoffs; I'm still thinking it over as to how that happened and the meaning of that final game. I'm still wondering why teams could make "adjustments" so much better than us on a regular basis, and why UM never surprised anybody else with strategic game plans, but we seemed to see plenty of "being surprised" from other teams. I've gotten some input from players, and some further opinions of my own, but there's no point in offering them here, and I won't. We never seemed to have an "original" plan with the possible exception, based on Coach Stitt's own statements, of the UND game. Otherwise, we seemed quite "reactive."

For the "cuts" and the need to address them/not address them at a press conference, the interesting part is how nobody that I read actually objected to making cuts and making them early, but how many posters made that a point of contention, disgust and outrage that anyone could dare criticize a coach for doing that. The problem simply was that nobody actually did that. It was one of the strangest "straw man" arguments I have yet seen on forums of allegedly intelligent people.

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiments.
 
UMGriz75 said:
PlayerRep said:
Does anyone actually know what the coaches said to Parker and Pflug?

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea for a coach confirm to the media or announce to the media, a day or so after discussions like this have been held with players, that they have been cut or told they won't play or told they should probably move on. The players can say and do what they want, but I think the coach should be silent, for at least a decent period of time.
I almost always agree with you, but on this, in an age of social media, this is no longer useful, and leads to precisely the kind of outcomes as evidenced here. I'm speaking from a good deal of experience on this point, and the actual facts, in this new era, are that as soon as something happens, and there is no official confirmation, the rumor machine starts because there is an "appearance" that "something is going on" that someone "wants to hide."

This is no longer a question of "if." In an age of instant communication and requirements of transparency, anything like this will -- "will" -- result in speculation, and all the more so when it involves 100 or more young people, their friends, families and cohorts at the first level, 50,000 or more fans at the next level, and the general public after that.

I've also been on all sides of this question, as a reporter, an editor, a coach, and a sport administrator. "News cycles" are incredibly rapid these days.

You sit down with the affected players, you discuss the situation with them. You show them the proposed press release. You thank them. You ask them if the press release is something that they find acceptable. You don't leave them hanging out to dry in the public, because when you do, I've seen the speculation -- caused entirely by "silence" -- range from "cut for chemistry," to "grades," to "criminal charges," to "violation of rules," to "drinking," to "inappropriate behavior," all of which can be as false as false can be, but anyone who fails to recognize the nature of that beast is simply naive. And once those rumors get out there, as is well known, the allegation gets society's attention; the correction is on page 23.

You can't take that risk with young people's lives. It is careless and entirely inappropriate to take that risk. The duty of loyalty to the kids and to the institution is to avoid damage to both, and there is only one way in modern society, dealing with young people subject to speculation and imagination, and fan bases driven almost entirely by it, to do otherwise. The modern "best practice" is to protect the athlete by direct and public communication, the assurance that the athlete committed no infractions resulting in the termination. The most difficult part of that public process is ensuring that the athlete does not go out to be re-recruited with the implied cloud that he "just wasn't good enough" which is the kiss of death for future college play, as opposed to ensuring that everyone knows that it was the coach's game that changed, not the athlete's inadequacy. Delicate area indeed for the athlete seeking to complete a career elsewhere.

So much so that the NCAA is attempting to resolve those dilemmas and protect those athletes by possibly shifting to five year scholarship guarantees, just to protect the athletes from the kind of fallout of what happened here at UM this week because of a badly handled roster cut. These aren't imaginary problems. The NCAA is taking them seriously. I have used the word "proactive." That should be the watchword any time dealing with young people who, above all, rarely have the resources to protect themselves, and in the process, to protect the image of the University as a caring and protective institution for the young people entrusted to its care.

Indeed, it is a contractual obligation at UM to avoid damaging the public image and reputation of UM:
4. CONDUCT OF THE UM FOOTBALL PROGRAM
a. Coach shall act at all times in accordance with and fully comply with the laws, regulations, rules, policies, and guidelines of the United States, State of Montana, UM, the Big Sky Conference, NCAA and in a manner that reflects positively on the image and reputation of UM. Coach's failure to act in full compliance with these laws, regulations, rules and guidelines may result in disciplinary or corrective action as may be appropriate in light of the severity of the conduct.

Good and interesting post, but I don't agree with much of it (i.e. on what a coach should do). I look at this from the point of view of players and coaches. 2 of my kids played sports in college, and is being recruited now. My wife's and my families also has, and have had, many relatives play college sports. Several are playing now. Also, between my wife's family and mine, I believe we have 16 current and former coaches, many of whom coached football or basketball. So, that influences my view on this. I prefer that the coach keep his mouth shut on matters that may involve my kid or my relatives. I also don't like reporters generally, except for Kyle. Oh, and some of what is you cite is N/A, in my view.
 
PlayerRep said:
Good and interesting post, but I don't agree with much of it (i.e. on what a coach should do). I look at this from the point of view of players and coaches. 2 of my kids played sports in college, and is being recruited now. My wife's and my families also has, and have had, many relatives play college sports. Several are playing now. Also, between my wife's family and mine, I believe we have 16 current and former coaches, many of whom coached football or basketball. So, that influences my view on this. I prefer that the coach keep his mouth shut on matters that may involve my kid or my relatives. I also don't like reporters generally, except for Kyle. Oh, and some of what is you cite about is N/A, in my view.
I appreciate the background. I've been retired from active coaching, ending in administrating, the coaching which I did for college and other age athletes for 30 years, on a daily basis. The competitor pool was approximately 30,000 athletes, and I had to deal with about 2,000 coaches, at the national and international level. I've trained, oh, perhaps 5 coaches who are currently coaching with great success nationally and internationally. Over the long time, I trained approximately 20 ultimately successful coaches, and perhaps 100 or more successful athletes. The stakes are higher, the numbers are bigger, the complications much larger, and the need to do it right much more compelling because of a sophisticated overseer, the USOC, which has far more sophistication than the University of Montana exercises over its sports teams. I am today, in fact, dealing with some issues between an NGB, USOC and NCAA on athlete representation issues, and trying to get a letter out the door.

The current best practice is that the organizations can't let the athletes try and go it alone on issues of participation, termination, qualification, scholarship eligibility, and public relations. NCAA is working on this by discussing longer guaranteed scholarships, USOC is working on this with media protocols and through employing athlete ombudsmen to assist athletes.

The sport world is becoming increasingly aware that the disparity between a 50 year old college coach earning $300,000 and a 17 year old kid signing his first "contract" is far too great to abandon the kid to the vagaries of the coach, his mood, his strategies, and of course to organizational politics as the coaches themselves are changed. As one collegiate athlete complained, "when the coach's contract was terminated, he got a huge buyout. When I got cut, I had to pay my own tuition even though I had made all my plans and changes to my life to attend that school."

As an employee of the University, I will maintain that we have a duty to the young people entrusted to our care. First, "do no harm."
 
UMGriz75 said:
PlayerRep said:
Good and interesting post, but I don't agree with much of it (i.e. on what a coach should do). I look at this from the point of view of players and coaches. 2 of my kids played sports in college, and is being recruited now. My wife's and my families also has, and have had, many relatives play college sports. Several are playing now. Also, between my wife's family and mine, I believe we have 16 current and former coaches, many of whom coached football or basketball. So, that influences my view on this. I prefer that the coach keep his mouth shut on matters that may involve my kid or my relatives. I also don't like reporters generally, except for Kyle. Oh, and some of what is you cite about is N/A, in my view.
I appreciate the background. I've been retired from active coaching, ending in administrating, the coaching which I did for college and other age athletes for 30 years, on a daily basis. The competitor pool was approximately 30,000 athletes, and I had to deal with about 2,000 coaches, at the national and international level. I've trained, oh, perhaps 5 coaches who are currently coaching with great success nationally and internationally. Over the long time, I trained approximately 20 ultimately successful coaches, and perhaps 100 or more successful athletes. The stakes are higher, the numbers are bigger, the complications much larger, and the need to do it right much more compelling because of a sophisticated overseer, the USOC, which has far more sophistication than the University of Montana exercises over its sports teams. I am today, in fact, dealing with some issues between an NGB, USOC and NCAA on athlete representation issues, and trying to get a letter out the door.

The current best practice is that the organizations can't let the athletes try and go it alone on issues of participation, termination, qualification, scholarship eligibility, and public relations. NCAA is working on this by discussing longer guaranteed scholarships, USOC is working on this with media protocols and through employing athlete ombudsmen to assist athletes. One of the long-term downsides of this is that, as a perception grows that kids are abused by the process, demands will grow for the long-term scholarships, and that this will damage schools like Montana that don't have those kinds of resources. In this day and age, it doesn't take much to kill the golden goose by a few misconceived actions on the part of coaches.

The sport world is becoming increasingly aware that the disparity between a 50 year old college coach earning $300,000 and a 17 year old kid signing his first "contract" is far too great to abandon the kid to the vagaries of the coach, his mood, his strategies, and of course to organizational politics as the coaches themselves are changed. As one collegiate athlete complained, "when the coach's contract was terminated, he got a huge buyout. When I got cut, I had to pay my own tuition even though I had made all my plans and changes to my life to attend that school."

As an employee of the University, I will maintain that we have a duty to the young people entrusted to our care. First, "do no harm."
 
UMGriz75 said:
PlayerRep said:
Good and interesting post, but I don't agree with much of it (i.e. on what a coach should do). I look at this from the point of view of players and coaches. 2 of my kids played sports in college, and is being recruited now. My wife's and my families also has, and have had, many relatives play college sports. Several are playing now. Also, between my wife's family and mine, I believe we have 16 current and former coaches, many of whom coached football or basketball. So, that influences my view on this. I prefer that the coach keep his mouth shut on matters that may involve my kid or my relatives. I also don't like reporters generally, except for Kyle. Oh, and some of what is you cite about is N/A, in my view.
I appreciate the background. I've been retired from active coaching, ending in administrating, the coaching which I did for college and other age athletes for 30 years, on a daily basis. The competitor pool was approximately 30,000 athletes, and I had to deal with about 2,000 coaches, at the national and international level. I've trained, oh, perhaps 5 coaches who are currently coaching with great success nationally and internationally. Over the long time, I trained approximately 20 ultimately successful coaches, and perhaps 100 or more successful athletes. The stakes are higher, the numbers are bigger, the complications much larger, and the need to do it right much more compelling because of a sophisticated overseer, the USOC, which has far more sophistication than the University of Montana exercises over its sports teams. I am today, in fact, dealing with some issues between an NGB, USOC and NCAA on athlete representation issues, and trying to get a letter out the door.

The current best practice is that the organizations can't let the athletes try and go it alone on issues of participation, termination, qualification, scholarship eligibility, and public relations. NCAA is working on this by discussing longer guaranteed scholarships, USOC is working on this with media protocols and through employing athlete ombudsmen to assist athletes.

The sport world is becoming increasingly aware that the disparity between a 50 year old college coach earning $300,000 and a 17 year old kid signing his first "contract" is far too great to abandon the kid to the vagaries of the coach, his mood, his strategies, and of course to organizational politics as the coaches themselves are changed. As one collegiate athlete complained, "when the coach's contract was terminated, he got a huge buyout. When I got cut, I had to pay my own tuition even though I had made all my plans and changes to my life to attend that school."

As an employee of the University, I will maintain that we have a duty to the young people entrusted to our care. First, "do no harm."

My dad would have told an "Ombudsman" or anyone else in the recruiting process we didn't invite into the circle of trust to butt out.
 
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